All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread Pt 11

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I’d rather stay put then go with Holtby

 

[AD Skinner]

I've posted about this before but I really think the Borg is content with the journeymen goalies and won't go big game hunting until that doesn't work out. So far it has

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I've posted about this before but I really think the Borg is content with the journeymen goalies and won't go big game hunting until that doesn't work out. So far it has

I don't know about that. LeBrun said that they pursued Lehner last Summer (Link). There was a ton of smoke about him pre-deadline as well. The asking price and possibly the cap didn't allow for it, but the continued interest could point to a FO that is, or at least was pre-pandemic, ready for some consistency in net.

 

[Chrispy]

My guess for goaltending is that the Canes will stick with the status quo, unless Holtby's UFA drags out past Day 1 and slowly becomes a potential value add. Then I could see them making some changes. I don't see them moving out Skjei or Gardiner until the Expansion Draft. I actually see them going 8-1 and protecting Aho/Turbo/Svech/Hamilton/Slavin/Pesce/Bean/Fleury (or Geekie, depending if his offense is for real or if he's like Poehling next year)/Nedeljkovic, with Staal waiving his NMC. That would set up a pick swap with Francis at the Expansion Draft in exchange for one of Skjei or Gardiner, likely the former IMO.

Can the Canes protect Ned in that scenario? Everything I've seen says the rules are same as the Vegas draft, which means Carolina would need a goalie under contract who is eligible for the draft:

* All Clubs must meet the following minimum requirements regarding players exposed for selection in the Expansion Draft:
i) One defenseman who is a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.
ii) Two forwards who are a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.
iii) One goaltender who is under contract in 2017-18 or will be a restricted free agent at the expiration of his current contract immediately prior to 2017-18. If the club elects to make a restricted free agent goaltender available in order to meet this requirement, that goaltender must have received his qualifying offer prior to the submission of the club's protected list.

Would Helvig count as an expansion draft eligible goalie with a qualifying offer? It sounds possible; there are no NHL game minimums on the goalie.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I don't see where Gardiner fits moving forward. They dropped a high pick on Skjei, who carries a $5.25 mil AAV. Fleury looked as if he was taking a step before the suspension of the season. He should be very cheap to extend for at least another season or two. Bean's also in the mix as a callup or regular, if they can make 4 LHD work, and he's on his ELC.

Reallocating that cap/salary elsewhere, probably via an undesirable contract swap, is the efficient move. The writing is on the wall to me.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Can the Canes protect Ned in that scenario? Everything I've seen says the rules are same as the Vegas draft, which means Carolina would need a goalie under contract who is eligible for the draft:



Would Helvig count as an expansion draft eligible goalie with a qualifying offer? It sounds possible; there are no NHL game minimums on the goalie.

Helvig will count because of pro experience.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I don't see where Gardiner fits moving forward. They dropped a high pick on Skjei, who carries a $5.25 mil AAV. Fleury looked as if he was taking a step before the suspension of the season. He should be very cheap to extend for at least another season or two. Bean's also in the mix as a callup or regular, if they can make 4 LHD work, and he's on his ELC.

Reallocating that cap/salary elsewhere, probably via an undesirable contract swap, is the efficient move. The writing is on the wall to me.

I suspect that Skjei was acquired both as short-term defensive help and as expansion bait. They spent a high pick to play a loaded defense for a full season. With Seattle, having both Skjei and Gardiner as options allows our FO to pick one to keep (whoever performed best that year) and make a deal with Seattle to select the other.

 

[DaveG]

My guess for goaltending is that the Canes will stick with the status quo, unless Holtby's UFA drags out past Day 1 and slowly becomes a potential value add. Then I could see them making some changes. I don't see them moving out Skjei or Gardiner until the Expansion Draft. I actually see them going 8-1 and protecting Aho/Turbo/Svech/Hamilton/Slavin/Pesce/Bean/Fleury (or Geekie, depending if his offense is for real or if he's like Poehling next year)/Nedeljkovic, with Staal waiving his NMC. That would set up a pick swap with Francis at the Expansion Draft in exchange for one of Skjei or Gardiner, likely the former IMO.

I mean either way I see us basically telling Ronnie "We're going to leave Skjei and Gardner unprotected, take the one we want you to and we'll send a 2nd your way as well" and that being that. I figure he'll have no qualms about getting paid a 2nd to add a top 4 dman regardless of if we go 8-1 or 7-3-1.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I mean either way I see us basically telling Ronnie "We're going to leave Skjei and Gardner unprotected, take the one we want you to and we'll send a 2nd your way as well" and that being that. I figure he'll have no qualms about getting paid a 2nd to add a top 4 dman regardless of if we go 8-1 or 7-3-1.

I think that going 8-1 rather than 7-3-1 lowers the pick compensation required in a pretty drastic manner, which is why I think that they're going to go that route unless Staal refuses to waive his NMC. Our most valuable expansion pieces, as far as contracts are concerned, are on defense (namely Fleury and Bean), and it isn't really close. That may change if Geekie really kills it this season, but besides that, the smart protection scheme should be 3 forwards and 5 defensemen.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I don't see where Gardiner fits moving forward. They dropped a high pick on Skjei, who carries a $5.25 mil AAV. Fleury looked as if he was taking a step before the suspension of the season. He should be very cheap to extend for at least another season or two. Bean's also in the mix as a callup or regular, if they can make 4 LHD work, and he's on his ELC.

Reallocating that cap/salary elsewhere, probably via an undesirable contract swap, is the efficient move. The writing is on the wall to me.

I think we need a reset of last off-season. Gardiner, Dzingel, and then a goalie need to go. To be fair, if it is Reimer they trade the original trade was still masterful. We have already started that process with removing Haula and bringing in Skjei. Basically our core guys getting older got us to playoff contention and Necas. The additions were hardly additions.

Subtracting that 12 million of cap space and adding in another cheaper goalie (Murray / Allen) with Foegele’s and Fleury’s extensions should allow us to absorb a Bozak / Bjugstad type bad contract to make the trade work while having more than enough space for performance bonuses.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Sending a 2nd to take a top 4 doesn’t make sense. If you leave both exposed then you let them choose. If Franchise doesn’t pick either then you trade one away for assets.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I think we need a reset of last off-season. Gardiner, Dzingel, and then a goalie need to go. To be fair, if it is Reimer they trade the original trade was still masterful. We have already started that process with removing Haula and bringing in Skjei. Basically our core guys getting older got us to playoff contention and Necas. The additions were hardly additions.

Subtracting that 12 million of cap space and adding in another cheaper goalie (Murray / Allen) with Foegele’s and Fleury’s extensions should allow us to absorb a Bozak / Bjugstad type bad contract to make the trade work while having more than enough space for performance bonuses.

Disagree on all fronts. They should keep Gardiner and Dzingel. Dzingel gives some cheap scoring help for one more season and he can be let go later on. I have said this before, and I will say it again, but I think that Skjei was acquired for both short-term help (at least) and the expansion draft. Gardiner's game was rebounding in February before COVID-19 paused the season, and I want to see more before I throw him under the bus.

 

[DaveG]

I think that going 8-1 rather than 7-3-1 lowers the pick compensation required in a pretty drastic manner, which is why I think that they're going to go that route unless Staal refuses to waive his NMC. Our most valuable expansion pieces, as far as contracts are concerned, are on defense (namely Fleury and Bean), and it isn't really close. That may change if Geekie really kills it this season, but besides that, the smart protection scheme should be 3 forwards and 5 defensemen.

Yeah I don't think it makes too much of a difference overall. Either way we're having to expose someone we really have no interest in losing and we will be giving Ronnie a pick to not take them. Either way we're not exactly sending him the Clarkson contract here so it won't be too bad.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I have no interest in Jake Allen. One good season in limited time doesn't make up for the bad goaltending the last couple of years before that for me.

Just in general with the goalies, if we can upgrade, great, do it. But if we can't, going with this tandem again next year is fine with me. I'd personally move on from Ned unless they can keep him as our expansion goalie in some way. Stranger things have happened, and with the Borg being all about value it certainly may happen again, but passing on Lehner 3 times at this point has me wondering how real all the smoke has been in the past.

I don't have much interest in paying Ronnie to take anyone. We're in a position to lose something and not give that much of a damn about it.

I think Dzingel was rarely used in a role that was beneficial to him. He was really hot early in the year when Haula and Necas were playing well. Haula died and Necas hit his rookie woes, and Dzingel wasn't put in great spots for long periods of time after that. I don't think he was that bad defensively to bury him either personally. Now, if they just don't think he fits and can move him for a better fit or asset, so be it, but I don't think it's necessary.

Gardiner absolutely was improving as the season went on. I brought it up before, but he almost missed time before the season for some ailment and then out of nowhere played and kept playing. Doesn't mean something wasn't nagging him. I'd be happy to see where he goes when things continue and/or next season. Again, if they find a move that makes sense, go for it, but I'm not on the he must go at all costs.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Disagree on all fronts. They should keep Gardiner and Dzingel. Dzingel gives some cheap scoring help for one more season and he can be let go later on. I have said this before, and I will say it again, but I think that Skjei was acquired for both short-term help (at least) and the expansion draft. Gardiner's game was rebounding in February before COVID-19 paused the season, and I want to see more before I throw him under the bus.

its about improving the team. Dzingle doesnt do it. He was relocated to the 4th line. He doesnt have the defensive prowess to play along side Trocheck and Necas. It makes no sense to play him with stonehands Staal. It also doesnt make a lot of season to pay him 3.375 million to play very little 4th line minutes as a filler. He went from the 4th highest overall in the season to the 9th overall in PP ice time after January. His minutes were going down everywhere. If that money can be used for a RH player who can take draws then lets do it.

Garnider. Look if Skjei was acquired for a 1st rounder in the deepest draft in a long time just to be expansion draft fodder, heads should roll. That is utter mismanagement of assets.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I think Dzingel was rarely used in a role that was beneficial to him. He was really hot early in the year when Haula and Necas were playing well. Haula died and Necas hit his rookie woes, and Dzingel wasn't put in great spots for long periods of time after that. I don't think he was that bad defensively to bury him either personally.

really poor choice of words

 

[Canes]

If we spent a 1st on "short term defensive help and expansion bait" I'd say that's a really poor use of assets.

Either way, Skjei or Gardiner will have to go. Paying 10 million for both of them is not really a great use of cap space.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

A 1st for a rental+1 Top 4 is fair value. Maybe you can make the argument that this team wasn't in the competitive position to make that type of trade. However, there is another dimension to the move that needs to be considered: if Skjei is exposed and selected, Bean and Fleury stay. That costs an asset otherwise.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

A 1st for a rental+1 Top 4 is fair value. Maybe you can make the argument that this team wasn't in the competitive position to make that type of trade. However, there is another dimension to the move that needs to be considered: if Skjei is exposed and selected, Bean and Fleury stay. That costs an asset otherwise.

Your point is a good one.
To me protecting either Fleury or Bean and then picking with a 1st is better than Bean or Fleury without the extra first.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I think we can mostly trust this group to set us up fairly well heading into the expansion draft.

 

[spockBokk]

Something will certainly have to give on the left side of the D this offseason or prior to the expansion draft. Personally, I really like what I saw from Gardiner over the final pre-Covid weeks, and I’d hope he sticks. However, with the move for Skjei, they now have Slavin/Skjei/Gardiner/Bean/Sellgren under contract next year with Fleury as an easy decision to re-sign as well. Post-Pesce Gardiner was a really good player and worth every penny of his $4M salary.

I wish they hadn’t made the move for Skjei, but I get why they did it. I could easily see this group next year:

Slavin-Hamilton
Gardiner-Pesce
Skjei-Fleury

But...that’s an expensive group. Seems like you have to lose one of Skjei or Gardiner to meet what Hamilton’s next deal will command. Speaking of Hamilton, I could still see them taking a run at re-upping Vatanen, provided he fits in whenever play resumes, as insurance on the right side. But unless Sami is willing to take a huge discount and/or Hamilton’s ask is ridiculous, that’s unlikely.

I don’t think Bean will ever sniff NHL ice in Raleigh while RBA is coach. I also think they trade him prior to next season for a comparable pick or Seattle-exempt prospect. If they end up keeping Bean, is it really the end of the world if they lose he or Fleury to Francis in the expansion draft? I’d rather they just resign themselves to losing one or the other and move on if that’s how it shakes out. Screw sending Francis a pick.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Gardiner. Look if Skjei was acquired for a 1st rounder in the deepest draft in a long time just to be expansion draft fodder, heads should roll. That is utter mismanagement of assets.

Again, I don't see that as the case. Coleman, Goodrow, among others, were rental+1 players that were dealt for 1st rounders, and Tampa even included Nolan Foote, their 1st rounder from last year, as part of the deal. The asking price for Brodin was a lot higher than that, and he was a Rental+1 as well. To be able to do that, protect Fleury/Bean, and be able to keep their D-core strong if Francis poaches one of our guys is a pretty nice deal to make on Carolina's end.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Again, I don't see that as the case. Coleman, Goodrow, among others, were rental+1 players that were dealt for 1st rounders, and Tampa even included Nolan Foote, their 1st rounder from last year, as part of the deal. The asking price for Brodin was a lot higher than that, and he was a Rental+1 as well. To be able to do that, protect Fleury/Bean, and be able to keep their D-core strong if Francis poaches one of our guys is a pretty nice deal to make on Carolina's end.

The value of assets are different.

TB, like Toronto, has cap issues and used their most valuable asset to alleviate the issue. In TB’s case they wanted a player who can contribute for very little instead of Toronto who wanted cap space.

Also, I am not arguing Skjei’s value. I am arguing that you don’t trade a 1st for Skjei to make him expansion draft fodder. Especially when it is to protect Fleury and Bean. Fleury’s value isnt a first rounder. Bean may, big may, get a very late first.

Doesn’t seem like asset management.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

The value of assets are different.

TB, like Toronto, has cap issues and used their most valuable asset to alleviate the issue. In TB’s case they wanted a player who can contribute for very little instead of Toronto who wanted cap space.

Also, I am not arguing Skjei’s value. I am arguing that you don’t trade a 1st for Skjei to make him expansion draft fodder. Especially when it is to protect Fleury and Bean. Fleury’s value isnt a first rounder. Bean may, big may, get a very late first.

Doesn’t seem like asset management.

I would say that Fleury's probably worth a second and/or a decent prospect with his recent year and age. We'll see what Jake Bean looks like next season, but I'm optimistic. Again, I think that the goal with the Skjei deal is run a loaded defense for one season, and based on who performs best, decide how to maneuver in the Expansion Draft. Again, I don't necessarily say that organizing a Skjei selection in the ED draft is necessarily the right idea, but it may be the best deal by the time that the decision has to be made. It may also simply be the best choice to just let Francis pick Geekie or Fleury, depending on who you decide to protect. That's why I like the trade that they pulled off. It gives them a bunch of choices and keeps their roster strong post-Seattle. Again, I don't think that the FO is perfect, however, I think that they're a well-above-average FO in this league that has done a lot to build our depth. My one armchair critique of our organization is that I wish that our coaching staff was less conservative and could let offensive-minded guys be offensive-minded. Not every single player on our 2nd line needs to be the best defensive player; get Dzingel in there and let him snipe some Trocheck or Necas passes from the left side.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

@TheRillestPaulFenton I understand the want to have the deepest team possible to still be good post expansion draft.

Unless Fleury becomes a top 3 defender next season or Bean blows the doors off, I can’t see justifying not protecting Skjei. Btw, I don’t know that Bean makes the squad.

With that being said, our non perfect FO needs to improve the team this offseason. Our needs are starting goalie, RH forward who can take draws, Top 6 forward, and RHD. We have a couple of guys who don’t fit into those roles / extremely redundant. If they can be moved to help fill the needs, it should be done.