All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread Pt 11

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Nikishin Go Boom

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I didn't say that Trocheck had Staal-like defensive skills. I said that Trocheck was no slouch defensively. That doesn't mean the same thing. Again, I think that it'll take a Cirelli or a similarly Selke-caliber centerman, in combination with Trocheck, to get Brindy away from overplaying Staal. As much as I love Brett Pesce, I would do just about anything to see the two-way monstrosity of an Aho/Cirelli/Trocheck/Staal/Geekie center corps, even if it's just for one year before one of those guys has to be either traded or bought out in order to make room for the Svech extension. I think there should be a deal centered around Cirelli + Cernak for Pesce + 2021 1st as a base. Something like this: Cirelli Deal with Explanation for How Dougie and Svech Can Fit - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Svechnikov-Aho-Teravainen
Gourde-Cirelli
-Necas
Niederreiter-Staal-Trocheck
Lorentz-Paquette-Geekie

Slavin-Hamilton
Gardiner
-Cernak
Skjei-TVR or Kaski/Cheap UFA
Bean

Reimer
Nedeljkovic

Bolded guys contribute to the possession blackholes appearing on the other team's side for at least half of the game. Best 200-foot defensive lineup in the cap era?
TB wants players not picks.

also, they are trading their younger version of Pesce for our version?
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

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TB wants players not picks.

also, they are trading their younger version of Pesce for our version?

Do you mean "picks not players"? The whole point of that deal that I proposed is that Tampa gets an elite defensive defenseman in Pesce, cheap, pending UFA forward pieces with 50% retained salary that can help their team right now, and Fleury and McKeown as bottom-pairing guys. It's almost an entirely win-now trade for both teams outside of a (probable) late 1st headed Tampa's way. Also, Cernak is their younger and (as of now) lesser version of Pesce. And we're not talking that much younger: He's a little more than 2 years younger than Pesce. The key players in that deal for Carolina's side are Cirelli, Cirelli, and Cirelli. Gourde, Cernak, and Paquette are solid role player pieces. Cirelli and Pesce are the two best players in that trade. It's basically Hamilton for Lindholm in reverse.
 
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bleedgreen

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Either hell has to freeze over or we have to get a center that Rod is comfortable with in every situation first before Staal goes anywhere.
I’m the first one to say the same thing. I’ve always been unhappy with Staal but even I like him a lot more as a third center and see a lot of value for us with him there. The thought of leaving another good player exposed because of his ntc is something different to me. I’m hoping DW feels the big picture is important enough to overrule his coach. I of course do not expect Rod to have anything but bad things to say about the idea.

In general Staal is going nowhere. You know Rod didn’t want Faulk to go, and they pulled that trigger anyways but of course that’s influenced by the contract situation which doesn’t apply here. Wishful thinking on my part for sure but with Staal’s declining offense, I just can’t choose him over a player who fits the future better.
 

GIN ANTONIC

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Well let’s be realistic, if Staal waived his NTC, Francis isn’t picking him. Maybe the borg can convince him, as the captain of the team to say ‘Jordan, look, we want you here and you’re a big part of our team. If you waive your NTC you’re not getting picked in the expansion draft and we’ll guarantee that. But by doing this you allow us to protect more core players and keep our team in a better position to go forward with you as leader. How does that sound?’
 

Lempo

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Well let’s be realistic, if Staal waived his NTC, Francis isn’t picking him. Maybe the borg can convince him, as the captain of the team to say ‘Jordan, look, we want you here and you’re a big part of our team. If you waive your NTC you’re not getting picked in the expansion draft and we’ll guarantee that. But by doing this you allow us to protect more core players and keep our team in a better position to go forward with you as leader. How does that sound?’
If I'm Francis I'm totally letting Jordo know that I'm looking forward to having him on my team again in Seattle.
 

Nikishin Go Boom

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Do you mean "picks not players"? The whole point of that deal that I proposed is that Tampa gets an elite defensive defenseman in Pesce, cheap, pending UFA forward pieces with 50% retained salary that can help their team right now, and Fleury and McKeown as bottom-pairing guys. It's almost an entirely win-now trade for both teams outside of a (probable) late 1st headed Tampa's way. Also, Cernak is their younger and (as of now) lesser version of Pesce. And we're not talking that much younger: He's a little more than 2 years younger than Pesce. The key players in that deal for Carolina's side are Cirelli, Cirelli, and Cirelli. Gourde, Cernak, and Paquette are solid role player pieces. Cirelli and Pesce are the two best players in that trade. It's basically Hamilton for Lindholm in reverse.
TB wants players to compete now in their window.
Cirelli may be good but he isn’t worth Pesce by himself and Cernak isn’t worth a 1st.
TB will be trying to move 1, probably 2, of their older underperforming forwards (Johnson, Gourde, Palat, and Killorn) in order to keep Cirelli, Sergachev, and possibly Cernak.
I’d easily take Cernak as his a big righty dude that loves to hit. He would be fantastic at 3 RD and can play 19 minutes.

I would do Palat and rights to Cernak for Dzingel @ 50% and rights to Mckeown/Kaski. Palat is another Nino except he still hits a ton. Palat would also be the shortest commitment of the 4. Putting Palat next to Trocheck and Necas would be very good.

TB will be desperate (Yzerman left at the right time). TB can gain around 3.7 in cap space to get to 9.1 million. They get a depth scorer and a organizational depth / 6th defender in Mckeown or Kaski that will be cheap contract wise. Foote will more than likely man one of the open RHD slots. TB still moves one more forward more than likely to open up some money to sign a old vet or two for super cheap to add to the cup push.

of course this would require us to shed a guy like *cough* Gardiner but Cernak is a better fit. Cernak is the RH version of Edmundson which fits the team better than Edmundson.
 

Nikishin Go Boom

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Pesce for a new 3C? No thank you. TB constantly churns out young players who over-perform and then get cast aside as new, cheaper players rise up the ranks. If the Canes want to pick up a player from Tampa they should buy low on one of the previous risers in Gourde.
Gourde is okay. My concern with Gourde is he is signed for 5 more seasons and will be 29 next season. Also his previous shot percentage was unsustainable at 18-20%. It came back down to earth at 9% and his points reflected the earthly shot percentage.
 
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GoldiFox

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Gourde is okay. My concern with Gourde is he is signed for 5 more seasons and will be 29 next season. Also his previous shot percentage was unsustainable at 18-20%. It came back down to earth at 9% and his points reflected the earthly shot percentage.

I generally break down an unsustainably high shooting % into 2 categories:
1) A decent/great shooter who hits a hot streak over a season and pots a few more than normal. For example, Nino when he got traded to the Canes on a hot shooting streak vs his production this season.
2) Players that score a lot of goals on open nets because they attack the crease. It's less about their shot and more about their IQ and willingness to attack the crease.

In my view Gourde is #2. He had 3 seasons of 17-20% shooting % not because he has an incredible shot, but because he is very often in the right place at the right time to score easy goals. Geekie showed a similar quality in his 2 game before the season was suspended. Personally I like those types and it's why I've always been interested in Gourde as a potential pickup.

You can see what I'm talking about here, where 80-90% of his goals are within 5 feet of the crease. He's a great cleanup scorer.

 

Navin R Slavin

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I generally break down an unsustainably high shooting % into 2 categories:
1) A decent/great shooter who hits a hot streak over a season and pots a few more than normal. For example, Nino when he got traded to the Canes on a hot shooting streak vs his production this season.
2) Players that score a lot of goals on open nets because they attack the crease. It's less about their shot and more about their IQ and willingness to attack the crease.

In my view Gourde is #2. He had 3 seasons of 17-20% shooting % not because he has an incredible shot, but because he is very often in the right place at the right time to score easy goals. Geekie showed a similar quality in his 2 game before the season was suspended. Personally I like those types and it's why I've always been interested in Gourde as a potential pickup.
Except you just said that we have Geekie, so do we need Gourde now?
 

GoldiFox

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Except you just said that we have Geekie, so do we need Gourde now?

I don't think we need Cirelli or Gourde. But if we are discussing taking advantage of TB's Cap situation then I would much rather pay a 2nd or 3rd for Gourde than Pesce+ for Cirelli.

If the Canes could find a way to get rid of Nino or Dzingle I'd much rather have Gourde and Geekie in the top-9, but I don't see that happening.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I’m the first one to say the same thing. I’ve always been unhappy with Staal but even I like him a lot more as a third center and see a lot of value for us with him there. The thought of leaving another good player exposed because of his ntc is something different to me. I’m hoping DW feels the big picture is important enough to overrule his coach. I of course do not expect Rod to have anything but bad things to say about the idea.

In general Staal is going nowhere. You know Rod didn’t want Faulk to go, and they pulled that trigger anyways but of course that’s influenced by the contract situation which doesn’t apply here. Wishful thinking on my part for sure but with Staal’s declining offense, I just can’t choose him over a player who fits the future better.

Agree with all this except I don't think the expansion draft exposure part is much of an issue at all. Again, without knowing the full roster a year from now, it's impossible to completely nail it down, but as it stands now.

F: Aho, Svech, TT, Staal (NMC), Trochek, and two of Foegele, Geekie, Nino.
D: Slavin, Pesce, Skjei. Leave Dougie as a UFA and try to sign him after the draft (if we even can at the price he'll command).

So we "risk" losing 1 of Bean, Fleury, Gardiner, or one F out of Foegele/Geekie/Nino we don't protect.

For me, it doesn't really matter if we protect 1 more F out of those 3 as we would probably lose Bean or Fleury either way. Even if we lost one of those F, it's not a big deal.
 

bleedgreen

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Agree with all this except I don't think the expansion draft exposure part is much of an issue at all. Again, without knowing the full roster a year from now, it's impossible to completely nail it down, but as it stands now.

F: Aho, Svech, TT, Staal (NMC), Trochek, and two of Foegele, Geekie, Nino.
D: Slavin, Pesce, Skjei. Leave Dougie as a UFA and try to sign him after the draft (if we even can at the price he'll command).

So we "risk" losing 1 of Bean, Fleury, Gardiner, or one F out of Foegele/Geekie/Nino we don't protect.

For me, it doesn't really matter if we protect 1 more F out of those 3 as we would probably lose Bean or Fleury either way. Even if we lost one of those F, it's not a big deal.
I like the idea of putting off Dougie but if we intend to keep him, and he’s amenable at a price we can stomach I think he’ll be signed in advance. If you like a guy you don’t put things like that off.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I like the idea of putting off Dougie but if we intend to keep him, and he’s amenable at a price we can stomach I think he’ll be signed in advance. If you like a guy you don’t put things like that off.

Yes, that’s what I’d do also (try to get him signed early) but given how this org proceeded with Aho(and even Waddell), I’m not confident that they will do that. Maybe it’s different because he’s a pending UFA? it will be interesting to see how they approach it.
 
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TheReelChuckFletcher

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Pesce for a new 3C? No thank you. TB constantly churns out young players who over-perform and then get cast aside as new, cheaper players rise up the ranks. If the Canes want to pick up a player from Tampa they should buy low on one of the previous risers in Gourde.

Cirelli is not a 3C. He's one of the best young two-way centers in hockey. He'll almost certainly be in our top-6 killing it on both ends of the ice and being our very own Selke contender. That is well worth Pesce IMO.
 

Canes

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Cirelli is not a 3C. He's one of the best young two-way centers in hockey. He'll almost certainly be in our top-6 killing it on both ends of the ice and being our very own Selke contender. That is well worth Pesce IMO.
Probably worth Pesce in a vaccum but I don't think we can afford to do that deal with the uncertainty on the right side of our defense. Plus we already have Aho, Trocheck, and Staal and then there's Geekie and Necas.
 

Nikishin Go Boom

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Cirelli is not a 3C. He's one of the best young two-way centers in hockey. He'll almost certainly be in our top-6 killing it on both ends of the ice and being our very own Selke contender. That is well worth Pesce IMO.
Disagree. Cirelli isn’t going to get 18 minutes a game with us with Staal and Aho in front of him. So yes he will be a 3C. On top of that, his PPG is similar to Kapanen’s when playing an almost 15 minutes per game. Cirelli PPG jumped as he got 3 more minutes per game. I bring Kapanen up because you laughed at Kapanen for Pesce trade proposals.
I don’t see him getting 18 minutes here and I don’t see TB letting him go. They would rather sell low on the other 4.
Trading pesce would be highly irresponsible for us.
 
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GIN ANTONIC

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If I'm Francis I'm totally letting Jordo know that I'm looking forward to having him on my team again in Seattle.

I mean I guess it's possible. I don't really see why Francis would want Staal at 6mil but I guess the center options could be limited and that would add some legitimacy to the expansion team.

It likely won't happen with waiving the NTC but it's at least a reasonable scenario to ponder. With Francis as the GM of Seattle, his focus should be on stockpiling as many assets and futures as possible. If you can select a player that you're OK with and also get a 2nd or prospect or whatever from that team as well then you'd be wise to do so unless a guy is exposed that is head and shoulders above everyone else as an option and is a super obvious choice.
 

TheReelChuckFletcher

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Disagree. Cirelli isn’t going to get 18 minutes a game with us with Staal and Aho in front of him. So yes he will be a 3C. On top of that, his PPG is similar to Kapanen’s when playing an almost 15 minutes per game. Cirelli PPG jumped as he got 3 more minutes per game. I bring Kapanen up because you laughed at Kapanen for Pesce trade proposals.
I don’t see him getting 18 minutes here and I don’t see TB letting him go. They would rather sell low on the other 4.
Trading pesce would be highly irresponsible for us.

Staal won't get more minutes than Cirelli, that's nonsense. Cirelli was the 2C during the vast majority of this season in Tampa, and his production in that role clearly would give Brindy no choice but to put him there and demote Staal to 3C, which is the ideal spot for his game, anyways.
 

GIN ANTONIC

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Staal won't get more minutes than Cirelli, that's nonsense. Cirelli was the 2C during the vast majority of this season in Tampa, and his production in that role clearly would give Brindy no choice but to put him there and demote Staal to 3C, which is the ideal spot for his game, anyways.

But we already have Trochek who is our 2C. Why do we need more centers? We need more Brett Pesces if anything.
 

Nikishin Go Boom

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Staal won't get more minutes than Cirelli, that's nonsense. Cirelli was the 2C during the vast majority of this season in Tampa, and his production in that role clearly would give Brindy no choice but to put him there and demote Staal to 3C, which is the ideal spot for his game, anyways.
Except by 3C you mean playing against the top line. Crazy enough the other teams’ top line plays the majority of minutes. Again Cirelli won’t be there.

also, you must have forgotten Brindy is a creature of habit / sticking to what he knows. He wont give Cirelli any of Staal’s time unless he is forced to by injury. See Faulk over Hamilton or Aho pre Staal injury
 
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Lempo

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I mean I guess it's possible. I don't really see why Francis would want Staal at 6mil but I guess the center options could be limited and that would add some legitimacy to the expansion team.

It likely won't happen with waiving the NTC but it's at least a reasonable scenario to ponder. With Francis as the GM of Seattle, his focus should be on stockpiling as many assets and futures as possible. If you can select a player that you're OK with and also get a 2nd or prospect or whatever from that team as well then you'd be wise to do so unless a guy is exposed that is head and shoulders above everyone else as an option and is a super obvious choice.

What I meant is that as Francis I would threaten Jordo that I'll pick him if he's available to scare him to not waiver his NTC so Canes can't protect a guy who they want to and who I plan to and will pick.
 
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