All purpose trade / roster building thread part 4: We like our Jerks

[bleedgreen]

Where does this narrative of being “deathly afraid” and “refusing to make deals” come from?

He had one year when Peters asked for help and didn’t really get much and a year where Francis MADE moves just not for star players when no one else made moves for star players. Who were these players we could’ve had but didn’t get?

The spin as time passes is dizzying.

Why can’t it just be Francis brought us to this past off season, this group is carrying on? Why do we think Karmanos would allow Francis to add salary more than we did? Do we remember when Francis had to publicly thank PK for opening the wallet for Williams? On a two year deal.

 

[Canes]

Where does this narrative of being “deathly afraid” and “refusing to make deals” come from?

He had one year when Peters asked for help and didn’t really get much and a year where Francis MADE moves just not for star players when no one else made moves for star players. Who were these players we could’ve had but didn’t get?

The spin as time passes is dizzying.

Why can’t it just be Francis brought us to this past off season, this group is carrying on? Why do we think Karmanos would allow Francis to add salary more than we did? Do we remember when Francis had to publicly thank PK for opening the wallet for Williams? On a two year deal.

Where does it come from?

You serious, Clark?

Just look at his major trades. There weren't any, and he had the assets to do at least one or two of them over his whole tenure. And if you want to argue his need to do so, just look at who is considered to be one of the most widely panned GMs of all-time in the NHL in Waddell and what he did in one offseason and how it altered the historical futility of this franchise.

Just one half decent shake up in his whole tenure could have saved his job, but he was afraid to do so and kept his conservative little by little approach every single year.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Duchene was the only major player the Canes were seriously linked to and trading Hanifin or Slavin for him, depending on which version you take seriously, would have been awful.

Thank you RF for being patient.

 

[Canes]

Duchene was the only major player the Canes were seriously linked to and trading Hanifin or Slavin for him, depending on which version you take seriously, would have been awful.

Thank you RF for being patient.

Linked to maybe according to the media.

No one had any idea at the scope of the Calgary-Carolina trade before it happened. Just because the media isn't reporting on it doesn't mean you can't make substantive trades to make your team better when they have sucked for forever and will suck for the foreseeable future.

And Hanifin for Duchene would have been a serious win so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. We would have had the cap room to get him signed, especially with Ronnie "Open the Checkbook for Scott Darling" Francis. I agree with you about Slavin for Duchene obviously.

As for Francis' patience, we would still be at least 2-3 years off if we were lucky given his lack of urgency to make this team good. But we would damn sure have lots of draft picks and prospects.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Ronnie drafted reasonably well. We can give him that.

But his tenure was a failure otherwise. He overpaid for a bad goalie, and it cost him. He never built a team that could crack the playoffs, and it cost him.

Still, who cares? Why are we bothering to defend his honor? Legendary player, mediocre GM. His number is still in the rafters. Let it go.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Linked to maybe according to the media.

No one had any idea at the scope of the Calgary-Carolina trade before it happened. Just because the media isn't reporting on it doesn't mean you can't make substantive trades to make your team better when they have sucked for forever and will suck for the foreseeable future.

This line of thinking takes you down the road of criticizing him for not making a trade(s) that may not have been available to make. Who was traded during his tenure that the organization had the assets to go get and he passed on? Duchene is the only that stands out to me.

And Hanifin for Duchene would have been a serious win so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. We would have had the cap room to get him signed, especially with Ronnie "Open the Checkbook for Scott Darling" Francis. I agree with you about Slavin for Duchene obviously.

As for Francis' patience, we would still be at least 2-3 years off if we were lucky given his lack of urgency to make this team good. But we would damn sure have lots of draft picks and prospects.

The reason so many of us were vehemently against that exact deal is what happened to Ottawa this year. The Sens were put in a position in which they either had to give a massive deal to a 28 year old in the midst of a predictable career year, if he even wanted to re-sign, or trade him for quarters on the dollar at the deadline. The Canes have Hamilton, still on his cost-controlled 2nd contract, for another 2 seasons. That’s significant in comparison.

 

[Canes]

The reason so many of us were vehemently against that exact deal is what happened to Ottawa this year. The Sens were put in a position in which they either had to give a massive deal to a 28 year old in the midst of a predictable career year, if he even wanted to re-sign, or trade him for quarters on the dollar at the deadline. The Canes have Hamilton, still on his cost-controlled 2nd contract, for another 2 seasons. That’s significant in comparison.

I understand the downsides to it exactly. But we're talking a Hanifin for Duchene hypothetical, with Duchene re-signing because Francis would have overpaid him to make it happen. And I would still do that deal given that assumption. If Francis made that deal without being able to re-sign Duchene, he's even more incompetent than people criticize him for.

And I'm not sure why you're talking Hamilton and his contract in this scenario when I'm almost 100% sure Francis would have never made the trade Waddell did to begin with...

 

[MinJaBen]

Guys on our team, the GM that made it happen, and how it happened:

Aho, draft - RF
Williams, UFA - RF
Nino, trade - DW
Foegele, draft - RF
Staal, trade - JR
TT, trade - RF
Svech, draft - DW
Martinook, trade - DW
McGinn, draft - RF
Walmark, draft - RF
Ferland, trade - DW
Saku, UFA - DW
McKegg, trade - RF
Brown, UFA - RF
Saarela, trade - RF

Hamilton, trade - DW
Slavin, draft - JR
Pesce, draft - JR
Faulk, draft - JR
De Haan, UFA - DW
Fleury, draft - RF
TvR, trade - RF

Mrazek, UFA - DW
McBackup, waivers - DW

 

[A Star is Burns]

Pesce wasn't drafted by RF

 

[MinJaBen]

Pesce wasn't drafted by RF

Cool, thanks.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Cool, thanks.

No prob. Useful list though. Cool to see that 3 GMs still have a pretty big impact on the construction of this roster

 

[bleedgreen]

Where does it come from?

You serious, Clark?

Just look at his major trades. There weren't any, and he had the assets to do at least one or two of them over his whole tenure. And if you want to argue his need to do so, just look at who is considered to be one of the most widely panned GMs of all-time in the NHL in Waddell and what he did in one offseason and how it altered the historical futility of this franchise.

Just one half decent shake up in his whole tenure could have saved his job, but he was afraid to do so and kept his conservative little by little approach every single year.

I’m still not getting it. Why was he afraid? How do we know he was “afraid”. Was it otherwise known as common sense? Francis made moves, some worked and some didn’t.

Our need to eat our own makes us come off as TO fans sometimes.

He didn’t want to trade kids. That’s because it’s dumb to trade kids. Especially on their elc. All Waddell did is take the guys he had to pay, that he didn’t want to pay, and find takers. When we lose Ferland we’ll have given up Lindy for Fox and Ferland. Which is exactly what Francis was trying to avoid most likely, using one of his few assets on smoke and mirrors.

Old regime was good and made mistakes. New regime seems good and has already/will make more mistakes.

 

[bleedgreen]

I understand the downsides to it exactly. But we're talking a Hanifin for Duchene hypothetical, with Duchene re-signing because Francis would have overpaid him to make it happen. And I would still do that deal given that assumption. If Francis made that deal without being able to re-sign Duchene, he's even more incompetent than people criticize him for.

And I'm not sure why you're talking Hamilton and his contract in this scenario when I'm almost 100% sure Francis would have never made the trade Waddell did to begin with...

Why not?

Why do we assume Francis wouldn’t trade any of his kids? They were coming up for contracts, he may have traded at least Hanifin. He was a disappointment.

 

[bleedgreen]

This line of thinking takes you down the road of criticizing him for not making a trade(s) that may not have been available to make. Who was traded during his tenure that the organization had the assets to go get and he passed on? Duchene is the only that stands out to me.



The reason so many of us were vehemently against that exact deal is what happened to Ottawa this year. The Sens were put in a position in which they either had to give a massive deal to a 28 year old in the midst of a predictable career year, if he even wanted to re-sign, or trade him for quarters on the dollar at the deadline. The Canes have Hamilton, still on his cost-controlled 2nd contract, for another 2 seasons. That’s significant in comparison.

If we paid the price Ottawa paid for Duchene....

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Our need to eat our own makes us come off as TO fans sometimes.

You're the only one we seem to be "eating" in this case, though. You keep wanting everyone to say that Ronnie was a good GM, and you're mad when people disagree with you. You keep bringing it up over and over and over.

Old regime was good and made mistakes.

No. I'm sorry. The old regime was not "good", because the old regime never once reached the playoffs in a league in which more than half of the teams make the playoffs every year.

Vegas came into their expansion year with far fewer pieces to work with, and they made it to the Cup finals. That's what "good" looks like.

I'll say that Francis wasn't a bad GM. He did inherit some hard problems, and he did make some decent decisions.

But that doesn't make him a good GM. It makes him not a bad GM.

And the word for that -- not good, not bad -- is mediocre. I know you don't like that characterization, but it's the truth, and it's an especially obvious truth now.

The new regime is good. How do we know? Because it's obvious, dude. It's obvious.

 

[cptjeff]

Why not?

Why do we assume Francis wouldn’t trade any of his kids? They were coming up for contracts, he may have traded at least Hanifin. He was a disappointment.

Because he had thirty thousand opportunities to do a D for F trade with one of our NHLers or major prospects that we all regarded as absolutely inevitable for 4 years due to the imbalance between our D and our F, and he never actually made that trade?

We know he wouldn't because he had innumerable opportunities and didn't. Seriously, are you for real with this shit?

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

We know he wouldn't because he had innumerable opportunities and didn't. Seriously, are you for real with this ****?[/QUOTE]


I am not a whole hog RF defender. He was a cautious GM. It was time for a change.

But I want someone to spell out the 'innumerable opportunities' for me. Who was the trade for? With whom? What price? Who do we give up, etc. I want specifics because all I hear from the RF haters are about all these deals he didn't do.

The same people bitching about how we never traded for a 1C (both RF and DW). Who the f*** trades away their 1C for any reasonable price?

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Because he had thirty thousand opportunities to do a D for F trade with one of our NHLers or major prospects that we all regarded as absolutely inevitable for 4 years due to the imbalance between our D and our F, and he never actually made that trade?

We know he wouldn't because he had innumerable opportunities and didn't. Seriously, are you for real with this ****?

How do you know how many opportunities he had? Who were these players, and what was the cost? Should he have paid the price Ottawa did for Duchene, just to lose him after 1.5 years?

Who's not for f***ing real here

 

[SaskCanesFan]

I understand the downsides to it exactly. But we're talking a Hanifin for Duchene hypothetical, with Duchene re-signing because Francis would have overpaid him to make it happen. And I would still do that deal given that assumption. If Francis made that deal without being able to re-sign Duchene, he's even more incompetent than people criticize him for.

Jesus this is some dizzying back and forth. So Francis is incompetent because he didn't trade for Duchene, but if he did trade for Duchene then lose him (like what happened to Ottawa in real life) then he's more incompetent?? Pick a side. Maybe he didn't make the trade because he knew Duchene wouldn't stick around, Karmanos wouldn't sign off on $10m per year, etc. In which case it was exactly the right move.

 

[cptjeff]

We know he wouldn't because he had innumerable opportunities and didn't. Seriously, are you for real with this ****?

I am not a whole hog RF defender. He was a cautious GM. It was time for a change.

But I want someone to spell out the 'innumerable opportunities' for me. Who was the trade for? With whom? What price? Who do we give up, etc. I want specifics because all I hear from the RF haters are about all these deals he didn't do.

The same people *****ing about how we never traded for a 1C (both RF and DW). Who the f*** trades away their 1C for any reasonable price?[/QUOTE]

Many of our defensemen could have shaken loose quite a lot of big deal forwards. Maybe not the perfect fit 1C, but Ryan O'Reilly, for example, could have been had easily. Francis can make the call, ask for a player, and offer a big name D, and build a deal around that.

Other GMs actually propose trades all the time. You don't actually have to wait until a player has been very publicly dangled on the market for months. In fact, that situation is very much the exception, not the rule. You know the value of your guy, you decide what type of player you want to get, and you actually make the first phone call. Yes, it's not always easy negotiating to get the guy you want. But other GMs manage to do it when they want to. Francis either couldn't or wouldn't. Either way, he had lots of pieces that other teams envied and the depth to make the trade without hurting the defense, but still couldn't ever close a deal. If he had wanted to make a trade, he could have made one. Don't give me bullshit about there only being one player whose name was screamed about in the media for a year so therefore only that one player was ever available for anything. That's not how trades work and you know it.

 

[bleedgreen]

Because he had thirty thousand opportunities to do a D for F trade with one of our NHLers or major prospects that we all regarded as absolutely inevitable for 4 years due to the imbalance between our D and our F, and he never actually made that trade?

We know he wouldn't because he had innumerable opportunities and didn't. Seriously, are you for real with this ****?

Did Waddell ever do a defense for forward trade to balance things out like you’re talking about? He traded Hanifin for Hamilton....

And then added a dman in Dehaan. If there were 30k opportunities for Francis to pull that off how come we haven’t since? We’ve been clamoring for that balancing trade all season.

Was Waddell “scared”?

Sitting on his hands?

Or is he just waiting for the right deal at the right time? Just like Francis.

 

[dogbazinho]

Well DWa hands were more tied with Faulk than Francis. There were alot of good players moved for questionable returns during Francis’s tenure. He also gambled on Darling when An unprecedented number of goalies were available leading up to rhe expansion draft.

 

[DaveG]

And Darling at the time was considered the second best of those behind Bishop, who we were highly unlikely to sign to what he would take in Dallas unfortunately. The problem is Darling f***ed up and decided not to do any offseason prep ruining his career. Where we f***ed up was in not giving him the Jake Dotchin treatment when that happened.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The title of this thread is clearly wrong. Should be re-named "How good or bad was Ron Francis?" and then we can open up a thread to talk about future roster moves and trades.

 

[bleedgreen]

My issue is that everything has to be so black and white sometimes. Francis is getting taken to the shed a bit too strong. Everyone who wanted him out feels like they’ve been vindicated and are taking their shots. Shouldn’t the shots at least be accurate? He never sat on his hands and was never “scared”. The deals weren’t there and he had a stingy owner. He did makes some moves, some failed and some worked. The new management didn’t make brilliant moves, they made the easiest moves they could make and they’ve paid off....for this season. It’s just too easy to sit here and say Peters and Francis were ass clowns doing it all wrong and in one fell swoop we’re now contenders. Any change would’ve worked because we were at the precipice. We needed the nudge and we got it.

Reality is up front we still look like a team with three 3/4 lines and a handful of AHL’ers. We’re still defense heavy while having the need up front. Our goaltending is still a huge question mark. We have no idea of the AHL kids are going to anything more than the previous generations of them have been.

There’s no reason to just assume this is who we are now moving forward. It’s a fun ride we enjoy to the end but the real questions about our new management are in front of them. Proving this wasn’t just a lucky run and showing that this team is a playoff contender every season. We had two key rfa’s to peddle off to get our “change” and Skinner’s upcoming Ufa.

Less ammo this summer. We’ll see how they manage. If you guys all say “it’s cool to stand pat, let’s be patient” after tearing down Francis for doing the same.....

This roster isn’t good enough to stand pat.