All purpose trade / roster building thread part 4: We like our Jerks

[NotOpie]

I don’t think my statement was strong enough to suggest we are a cap ceiling team.

I say no to Kessel.

I target a post July 1st deal with Toronto for Nylander or Kapanen. Allows Toronto to re-sign Faulk to make the deal worth it.

Target the same time frame deal with LV for Karlsson or TB for Miller.

Yeah, sorry for any confusion....I wasn't responding to you specifically, more like the "royal you"....sort of talking to everybody.

My point is that we're still going to have some significant cap considerations what with signing Aho and planning for Svech in a couple of years.

Personally, I think the Leafs are almost in the position of dealing Nylander just to get Kapanen and Johnsson resigned. Regardless one or more of those guys are likely moved either at the draft or this Summer.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Waddell completely changed the culture of the team. Francis stood pat. The results speak for themselves.

Waddell got league average goaltending, Francis didn't. Call that "culture" all day if it makes you feel better, but that was the difference

 

[AeroFishOne]

Waddell got league average goaltending, Francis didn't. Call that "culture" all day if it makes you feel better, but that was the difference

He did get rid of the two guys that were the cause of less than league average goaltending.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

It wasn't a 5 year plan to maybe scrape into the playoffs. It was a 5 year plan to become a contender for the Stanley Cup.

And yes, this is year 5- except for the fact that Waddell took Francis's plan, ran it through the shredder twice, crapped on it, set it on fire, and dumped the ashes into a sewer. This is year one of the Dundon/Waddell/Brind'Amour/Tulsky Hydra-Headed GM plan, not year 5 of the Francis plan.

Francis failed, and failed miserably.

If by "failed miserably" you mean put together the core of the team we have now, built the prospect pool from the ground up from a laughing stock to one of the deepest in the league, added a 70 point forward for mid round picks, finally got out from all the garbage left from Rutherford, while having a cheap owner transitioning to a cap floor team, then sure. Or maybe talking out your ass is the new thing, I can't keep up with internet trends.

Obviously people forget what a f***ing disaster the team was when Francis took over. Corvo, Harrison, Sanguinetti, a shopping cart missing a wheel for a D core, $22 million in Staal, Semin, and Ward, and failed AHLers to fill out the bottom 6 because there was no other option. There's no "quick fix" for that, period. No magic trade, no draft where you get 7 NHLers in 7 rounds, no way to make past bad contracts just disappear, nothing. Francis did exactly what was necessary.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Bull**** right back. You have no idea what Francis had on the table. You’re just assuming. The first couple of years the team wasn’t good enough to be making any moves at all and were rebuilding. The back half the team wasn’t remotely good enough to add at the deadline. Picks for Mrazek? He was awful. How did he end up playing for us for so cheap? He’s trying to save his career. That move made no sense for us.

Also, one year he did make moves! Some of them are questioned now, which somehow turns into a “narrative” of “he stood pat”.

Darling, Kruger, Tvr, Jooris and Williams. How is that inactivity or standing pat?!? In a couple of weeks.

There wasn’t a single move for a better player that made any sense for us or a free agent that would’ve come here. So fair to say the concept of Francis not doing anything is bs. Dundell himself said he agreed with the team not adding at the deadline which was the obvious right choice. We weren’t going to make it.

No, no. Obviously Francis had Boychuk and Terry and Ryan Murphy for Nuge and Seth Jones available as trades, he was just too much of a p***y to pull the trigger.

Thank God someone gets it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Why does everyone try to make it so black and white? IMO, Francis did a good job at building up the depth and talent through the draft, trades (Staal, Sekera, TT, etc). Our team had little talent and no depth before he took over and he fixed that.

Dundon/Waddell/Brindy were then able to make the right moves to turn depth and talent into a winning, playoff team by changing the mix of players and changing the culture, even when the moves were panned by many.

I like what I’ve seen this year, but I need to see long term success with this regime as well.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Francis had his ups and downs. Like I mentioned before, he certainly wasn't awful, and did some good things for this franchise. I'm not entirely sure why anybody would so staunchly defend him though. He left the franchise better than where it started. I still don't think he ever showed he could take it to the next level. I also still don't get why anybody would bring a financial constraints into defending him when we were in the exact same position this year and finally made some real progress with some bold smart moves. I think he was too patient and unwilling to part with certain assets to improve the team, and that was part of his undoing. Unfortunately for him, he also didn't seem to fit with the new direction of the team after the ownership swap. I don't wish him any ill will, I wish he didn't have hard feelings, but I get it. But I think it was the perfect time to move on from him to someone willing to take action with all the assets he'd stockpiled.

Also, just as an aside, I still didn't buy that we were just goaltending away. We looked last year for instance, and by and large, you had to score at a better rate than the 23rd or so we were last year to make the playoffs. Also, the new regime were Tony Stark and able to build a goalie tandem in a cave with a box of scraps. RF wasn't Tony Stark. He swung and missed on a few goalies, including never getting rid of Ward. That was as much of his undoing as anything. He had the chance to move on, and said, why not two more years of the same garbage with Cam?

 

[A Star is Burns]

Why does everyone try to make it so black and white? IMO, Francis did a good job at building up the depth and talent through the draft, trades (Staal, Sekera, TT, etc). Our team had little talent and no depth before he took over and he fixed that.

Dundon/Waddell/Brindy were then able to make the right moves to turn depth and talent into a winning, playoff team by changing the mix of players and changing the culture, even when the moves were panned by many.

I like what I’ve seen this year, but I need to see long term success with this regime as well.

Not everyone. I've included what he was good at several times now!

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Waddell got league average goaltending, Francis didn't. Call that "culture" all day if it makes you feel better, but that was the difference

Hard to blame below average goaltending when Francis brought in several goalies who flopped majorly, though. The first two goalies Waddell brought in were successful. Perhaps it’s just luck or perhaps the new management team is better at identifying talent.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Teuvo Teravainen and Nino Niederreiter cost a 2nd, a 3rd, and Victor Rask.

Can we make more of these trades?

I would say Yzerman might want to make the Red Wings his own team and might be ripe for a deal. Then I look at their roster and back away from the thought. Zadina would be a nice add on to take one of their veteran bad contracts to give them cap room. Im torn about that too.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I would say Yzerman might want to make the Red Wings his own team and might be ripe for a deal. Then I look at their roster and back away from the thought. Zadina would be a nice add on to take one of their veteran bad contracts to give them cap room. Im torn about that too.

Wings don’t have much in the way of good young prospects. Yzerman isn’t going to come in and trade away their best one just to move a vet. That team is going to take some time to turn around. He won’t make rash moves.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Not everyone. I've included what he was good at several times now!

Yeah, that wasn’t meant to be a literal “everybody”.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Yeah, that wasn’t meant to be a literal “everybody”.

But you're the literal one, right? I don't understand. I'm just messing around.

 

[sheriff bart]

I think Dundon wanted to be more aggressive with making moves than Francis was comfortable doing. I think Francis was maybe too attached to all the assets he acquired and was afraid to move a young player for fear that he’d end up being good somewhere else.

Francis built a strong foundation and corrected a lot of problems. He just didn’t seem to want to make hockey trades and that didn’t jive with new ownership.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

But you're the literal one, right? I don't understand. I'm just messing around.

This is the third time in a week where I had to defend not being literal. Bizarro world.

 

[A Star is Burns]

This is the third time in a week where I had to defend not being literal. Bizarro world.

Well that's literally why I said it. I knew you'd get it. We're usually on the same page with things, so I tend to remember your posts better.

 

[NotOpie]

This is literally the third time in a week where I had to defend not being literal. Bizarro world.

Fixed

 

[Ken Lund]

Package Fox and the first for Kreider.

Ranger fan here. First, congrats on a good year and playoff so far. Second, as a Ranger fan I like this deal but I could see adding something like a third round pick going back to you in 2020 if Krieder doesn't resign. Of course, if you go do something silly like winning the Cup your first rounder won't be worth enough, so be careful.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Waddell got league average goaltending, Francis didn't. Call that "culture" all day if it makes you feel better, but that was the difference

That’s the only difference eh

 

[My Special Purpose]

I think Dundon wanted to be more aggressive with making moves than Francis was comfortable doing. I think Francis was maybe too attached to all the assets he acquired and was afraid to move a young player for fear that he’d end up being good somewhere else.

Francis built a strong foundation and corrected a lot of problems. He just didn’t seem to want to make hockey trades and that didn’t jive with new ownership.

I really don't want to wade into this (again), but it's an off-day and I'm a sucker.

As a "for instance," RF *raved* about Noah Hanifin and was quoted as saying something like "just wait until he's 24." Ronnie had *insane* faith in "his" guys and was willing to wait until the end of time to see them turn into what he believed them to be.

But sometimes, you just have to admit you were wrong and cut bait. Hanifin had a good season in Calgary, but according to their fans, he's been "meh." There were conflicting opinions surrounding Hanifin's ceiling around the draft and it's starting to look like the guys who felt that Hanifin peaked early and wouldn't develop much were on the money. But Francis wouldn't -- or refused to -- hear that.

There are other times when you just have to change the mix, either to rebalance your lineup or to change the culture. Francis wouldn't hear that, either. I give him credit for his management of the organization, but that's only part of the job. He simply did not seem cut out for the part of the job that called for tough decisions and moving players to whom you may have an emotional attachment for the betterment of the franchise.

Ronnie would have been a helluva scouting director or minor-league GM, but he just didn't have everything it took to be an NHL GM. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he selling real estate now? No offense, but that's not the typical career path for a up-and-coming NHL general manager.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Ronnie would have been a helluva scouting director or minor-league GM, but he just didn't have everything it took to be an NHL GM. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he selling real estate now? No offense, but that's not the typical career path for a up-and-coming NHL general manager.

I mean, the sense around the league has got to be that you butchered your first chance pretty badly when you're not even *mentioned* as a possibility for the Edmonton Oilers gig.

 

[bleedgreen]

I really don't want to wade into this (again), but it's an off-day and I'm a sucker.

As a "for instance," RF *raved* about Noah Hanifin and was quoted as saying something like "just wait until he's 24." Ronnie had *insane* faith in "his" guys and was willing to wait until the end of time to see them turn into what he believed them to be.

But sometimes, you just have to admit you were wrong and cut bait. Hanifin had a good season in Calgary, but according to their fans, he's been "meh." There were conflicting opinions surrounding Hanifin's ceiling around the draft and it's starting to look like the guys who felt that Hanifin peaked early and wouldn't develop much were on the money. But Francis wouldn't -- or refused to -- hear that.

There are other times when you just have to change the mix, either to rebalance your lineup or to change the culture. Francis wouldn't hear that, either. I give him credit for his management of the organization, but that's only part of the job. He simply did not seem cut out for the part of the job that called for tough decisions and moving players to whom you may have an emotional attachment for the betterment of the franchise.

Ronnie would have been a helluva scouting director or minor-league GM, but he just didn't have everything it took to be an NHL GM. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he selling real estate now? No offense, but that's not the typical career path for a up-and-coming NHL general manager.

Uhhhh. When did Francis “refuse” to hear about Hanifin? What are you talking about?

The guy was 21 when Rf got fired and still on his entry contract. There’s no reason to assume he wouldn’t have traded him or was blind to the development.

He never had a reason or a chance to trade him. This past off season would’ve been the first time. You’re not even making sense.

 

[bleedgreen]

I mean, the sense around the league has got to be that you butchered your first chance pretty badly when you're not even *mentioned* as a possibility for the Edmonton Oilers gig.

Are you being serious? I was under the impression he wanted to do the real estate, and wasn’t he still under contract or have some obligation to us? Are you seriously suggesting that RF couldn’t work as an executive again?!? Because YOU haven’t heard any rumor about him being in on.......Edm?

There were rumors of him being on the Leafs radar at times.....and I’m sure he’d rather work for them anyways.

I’m not even mad you come up with this ridiculousness, I’m actually impressed.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned in a few places, I think 31 Thoughts among them, that there is some part of his ownership stake here that Francis can't get out of until November and is handcuffed by it.

He is a part of Team Canada's management for the World Championships, so he's still in the game somehow, just apparently can't do much in the NHL right now.

 

[Canes]

Francis did a pretty decent job at restocking the barren prospect pipeline, adding draft picks when we were out of it, and taking advantage of other team's cap troubles. But he was deathly afraid of trading surplus assets in major deals, made meh to bad UFA signings and just generally seemed to have no urgency at making this team watchable. As bad as we were when he took over, there just wasn't much he could do to actually make us worse... that's how bad we were. Improvement was inevitable.

Waddell came in with a not so great reputation and made some bold moves that were widely criticized to start but he's now looking pretty good. It remains to be seen how it plays out long term.

I've criticized both heavily, and ultimately narratives can be made to spin their tenures any way you like.