Player Discussion Alexander Ovechkin (Vol. 3)

[jukon]

Hey Caps fans, curious if you think the NHL would consider a league-wide retirement for Ovie when all is said and done. How much do you think he's got left? Do you think he'll win more Richard trophies?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Hey Caps fans, curious if you think the NHL would consider a league-wide retirement for Ovie when all is said and done. How much do you think he's got left? Do you think he'll win more Richard trophies?

He just had his two best seasons since 2013. Looked great in '17-18 and '18-19 start to finish. Was a beast in both playoffs. Could have been a Hart finalist in either season. Definitely the best player on the Capitals both seasons by a good margin. Utterly consistent Month to Month - which is friggin hard to do as a goal scorer. Just look at Laine, Matthews, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos - all great goal scorers, and none of them are remotely as consistent as Ovie.

He's got a lot left in the tank. He seems to be starting each season in great shape. He's pacing himself better - saving the hitting for the playoffs more than he used to. It's smart, and he's obviously aging pretty well.

I don't know if he'll win more Rockets but I certainly like his chances far better than any other player for next year and the year after. If he gets 2 more I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

 

[txpd]

Ov is just not a normal athlete. He's a freak of nature. His game continues to evolve to the point that I think he has saved use of some skills because he didn't need them for later in his career. There is going to be a time where he goes to the net as a primary way of scoring goals because you cant move him or stop him in a battle of strength.

His playmaking game showed up this past season to a level he hasn't shown off a lot. When he is setting up goals enough that the oppo has to respect the pass and just not assume he is shooting his goal scoring will go back up again. He just hasn't shown us all that he can do yet and frankly that is scary. Its also something that most fans not watching him play every game would even notice.

I have concluded that he is the best scorer in the league until he isn't.

 

[Hivemind]

Hey Caps fans, curious if you think the NHL would consider a league-wide retirement for Ovie when all is said and done.

No.

How much do you think he's got left? Do you think he'll win more Richard trophies?

I'll continue to believe he can win more Richard trophies until he actually stops winning Richard trophies. It will also depend on if someone like McDavid, Laine, Matthews, or Kucherov actually challenges him with 50G+ season(s).

 

[Gniwder]

Hey Caps fans, curious if you think the NHL would consider a league-wide retirement for Ovie when all is said and done.

Do you mean league-wide number retirement like Gretzky? Absolutely not, considering Gretzky's number is the only number retired in the NHL. He hasn't even scored half as many points as #99.

 

[jukon]

Do you mean league-wide number retirement like Gretzky? Absolutely not, considering Gretzky's number is the only number retired in the NHL. He hasn't even scored half as many points as #99.

No conversation about Ovi is about points, it's about goals. He's in a league of his own in goal scoring. Nobody in NHL history has lead the league in goal scoring as many times as he has and depending on how many more seasons he has he could potentially catch up to Gretzky's goal scoring record. I'm not saying that the NHL will ever do another league wide retirement, but if anyone would make a case for it, it's him.

 

[Gniwder]

No conversation about Ovi is about points, it's about goals. He's in a league of his own in goal scoring. Nobody in NHL history has lead the league in goal scoring as many times as he has and depending on how many more seasons he has he could potentially catch up to Gretzky's goal scoring record. I'm not saying that the NHL will ever do another league wide retirement, but if anyone would make a case for it, it's him.

He hasn't had the impact on the game like Gretzky and has only won the Cup once. Not to mention everybody loves Gretzky, not so much with Ovy. Plus Gretzy was more than just a goal scorer, as previously mentioned he has a ridiculous number of assists on top of the goal record.

For a league-wide jersey retirement, he'd have to not just break Gretzky record, he'd have to exceed it by a good margin. I think the minimum to start a conversation would be 1000 regular season goals, since he'd be the first (and possibly the last) to do it. He'd have to maintain a 50 goal pace until he hits 40 to get there....

 

[jukon]

He hasn't had the impact on the game like Gretzky and has only won the Cup once. Not to mention everybody loves Gretzky, not so much with Ovy. Plus Gretzy was more than just a goal scorer, as previously mentioned he has a ridiculous number of assists on top of the goal record.

For a league-wide jersey retirement, he'd have to not just break Gretzky record, he'd have to exceed it by a good margin. I think the minimum to start a conversation would be 1000 regular season goals, since he'd be the first (and possibly the last) to do it. He'd have to maintain a 50 goal pace until he hits 40 to get there....

No era adjustment for greatness?

 

[Gniwder]

No era adjustment for greatness?

Is there ever? I get that goaltending equipment is bigger, goalies are bigger, and their techniques are better. At the same time, Ovy uses a composite stick and has the benefit of modern training techniques and medical advancements.

The thing about Ovie is that he may be the greatest goal scorer ever, but he's not the greatest hockey player ever or even right now. Not to mention his overall impact on the game (outside of DC) isn't very significant, and we're talking about a league-wide retirement. Anywhere outside of DC, Ovy still isn't mentioned among the hockey greats, he's still looked at as being very one dimensional (fair or not).

 

[txpd]

Not to mention his overall impact on the game (outside of DC) isn't very significant

Are you insane?(He says as Ovechkin is on a tour of China to promote the NHL).

 

[um]

Are you insane?(He says as Ovechkin is on a tour of China to promote the NHL).

they send players every year...

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Ovechkin is not only a generational talent, he's a generational icon in hockey. No player of recent times - at his level - has brought such passion and personality. Ovi is Ovi and everyone is drawn to his electricity on and off the ice.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Is there ever? I get that goaltending equipment is bigger, goalies are bigger, and their techniques are better. At the same time, Ovy uses a composite stick and has the benefit of modern training techniques and medical advancements.

The thing about Ovie is that he may be the greatest goal scorer ever, but he's not the greatest hockey player ever or even right now. Not to mention his overall impact on the game (outside of DC) isn't very significant, and we're talking about a league-wide retirement. Anywhere outside of DC, Ovy still isn't mentioned among the hockey greats, he's still looked at as being very one dimensional (fair or not).

He’ll (hopefully) end up arguably the best at the most important skill in the game, goal scoring. Anyone NOT mentioning Ovechkin among the greats is just biased IMO and therefor not credible.

I’m fine with pumping the brakes some on these “career end” talks because he still has work to do, but the attempts to diminish Ovy by talking about the same advancements in technology, medicine, and training as his peers benefit from seems transparent to me.

 

[txpd]

they send players every year...

and?

 

[txpd]

He’ll end up arguably the best at the most important skill in the game, goal scoring. Anyone NOT mentioning Ovechkin among the greats is just biased IMO and therefor not credible.

I’m fine with pumping the brakes some on these “career end” talks because he still has work to do, but the attempts to diminish Ovy by talking about the same advancements in technology and training as his peers benefit from seems transparent to me.

As he is a legend for his hitting game as well and quite possible to be a legend at other things as time passes, its more than just the goal scoring too.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

As he is a legend for his hitting game as well and quite possible to be a legend at other things as time passes, its more than just the goal scoring too.

Sure, but they don’t often award HOF creds for hitting.

His durability should be considered legendary when you add his hitting game to the equation.

 

[txpd]

Sure, but they don’t often award HOF creds for hitting.

His durability should be considered legendary when you add his hitting game to the equation.

Hitting is not a Hall of Fame category. Neither is defense for a forward. In Ov's case, though, his hitting is descriptive of the freak of nature that he is. It is part of his reputation. Correct that his durability, Russian Machine Never Breaks, is also part of that whole legend. I am interested to see how 35 to 40 Ov adds to that because I am pretty sure he will.

 

[Gniwder]

He’ll (hopefully) end up arguably the best at the most important skill in the game, goal scoring. Anyone NOT mentioning Ovechkin among the greats is just biased IMO and therefor not credible.

I’m fine with pumping the brakes some on these “career end” talks because he still has work to do, but the attempts to diminish Ovy by talking about the same advancements in technology, medicine, and training as his peers benefit from seems transparent to me.

I was responding to a question about era adjustment, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Is Ovy a legendary scorer, sure. HHOF? Obviously. But the discussion here is about a league-wide number retirement, which has happened only once ever, and only because Bettman loves marketing. Bettman is more likely to retire Sid's number than Ovy's, we all know that. In the end, it's his decision, think about that. We're not talking about a vote like All Stars or HHOF. So no, it's not gonna happen, any way you look at it.

I'm being realistic, not hating on Ovy. I'm a Caps fan.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

The point is why bring it up? The only reason I see is to try to denigrate the player.

No he won’t get a league-wide retirement. Sid will also get zero consideration for such an honor.

Next.

 

[g00n]

"Era adjustment" benefits Ovechkin whether it's vs previous eras or this one.

Everyone else he's blowing past TODAY has the same technological and training benefits Ovie does. So I'm not sure why any of that enters into that equation.

And if you're looking at today's goalscorers vs years past you can't deny the decline in overall scoring and the increase in goaltender proficiency/stats league-wide for the last 30 or so years. So scoring now is harder than before, yet he excels.

Denigrating his role in the league or framing his perception abroad as one-dimensional is also about 10 years out of date. Even the haters on PeNBC have finally admitted that.

So Caps fans should know better, more than anyone else.

 

[shtorm2005]

Is there ever? I get that goaltending equipment is bigger, goalies are bigger, and their techniques are better. At the same time, Ovy uses a composite stick and has the benefit of modern training techniques and medical advancements.

There are much more aspects than you just named. League wide scoring average reflects every changes made to the game, world competition and strategy evolution. Some, are positive to scoring, some are not, but sum of all of them impacts scoring average. There is common acknowledge that Gretzky won't score 200+ points in modern NHL. It works in opposite way too. Peak Ovy is not just 65 goals scorer in a team without salary cap full of HHOFs

 

[Gniwder]

There are much more aspects than you just named. League wide scoring average reflects every changes made to the game, world competition and strategy evolution. Some, are positive to scoring, some are not, but sum of all of them impacts scoring average. There is common acknowledge that Gretzky won't score 200+ points in modern NHL. It works in opposite way too. Peak Ovy is not just 65 goals scorer in a team without salary cap full of HHOFs

No kidding.... did you expect me to write a Doctorate thesis?

Fact of the mater is, I have yet to see any sport where they have era adjustment for records. Look at the NFL, they don't have any asterisks for records set during 14 game seasons vs 16.

The other fact, like I said before is that it will be up to the commissioner to decide to do a league wide jersey retirement. There is no set process for it. (In fact, there's no set process for teams to decide either, it's usually up to the owner.) So if you're hoping for the NHL to retire #8, good luck.

 

[g00n]

No kidding.... did you expect me to write a Doctorate thesis?

Fact of the mater is, I have yet to see any sport where they have era adjustment for records. Look at the NFL, they don't have any asterisks for records set during 14 game seasons vs 16.

The other fact, like I said before is that it will be up to the commissioner to decide to do a league wide jersey retirement. There is no set process for it. (In fact, there's no set process for teams to decide either, it's usually up to the owner.) So if you're hoping for the NHL to retire #8, good luck.

One person, who is not a Caps fan, asked about the remote possibility of league-wide number retirement while admitting it wasn't going to happen. So I'm not sure who you're trying to convince about that.

 

[Gniwder]

One person, who is not a Caps fan, asked about the remote possibility of league-wide number retirement while admitting it wasn't going to happen. So I'm not sure who you're trying to convince about that.

Because that was the original question I was answering before everyone jumped on my back? Scroll up and read the thread instead of taking posts out of context.

 

[g00n]

Because that was the original question I was answering before everyone jumped on my back? Scroll up and read the thread instead of taking posts out of context.

Take your own advice. The relevant (2nd) post after the initial question:

No conversation about Ovi is about points, it's about goals. He's in a league of his own in goal scoring. Nobody in NHL history has lead the league in goal scoring as many times as he has and depending on how many more seasons he has he could potentially catch up to Gretzky's goal scoring record. I'm not saying that the NHL will ever do another league wide retirement, but if anyone would make a case for it, it's him.

So again, an Oilers (I assume) fan came here asking the question. Nobody said Ovie's number should be retired league-wide. In fact most who said anything said the opposite.
People are arguing your characterizations of Ovie's attributes much, MUCH more than this jersey issue you keep hammering.

Unless you can show me some post here by a Caps fan that advocates retiring #8 across the league...?