Alex Anthopolous not returning as Blue Jays GM

[JS19]

I never brought up him winning executive of the year until that last post. You disregard people around baseball calling him a great baseball mind and you disregard his executive of the year awards from years past. It's no surprise you don't have a high opinion of him

Of course I'm going to be skeptical when his record is nothing short of abysmal in recent times. I hope I get proven wrong, but I'm not going to be on Shapiro's ****, not right away when he's the reason why AA was driven out of Toronto. Especially when there was no reason to give the keys to the franchise to an unknown commodity vs. the guy who took your team to within 2 wins of a World Series appearance. Shapiro's going to have to prove himself just like AA had when he was first hired.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Of course I'm going to be skeptical when his record is nothing short of abysmal in recent times. I hope I get proven wrong, but I'm not going to be on Shapiro's ****, not right away when he's the reason why AA was driven out of Toronto. Especially when there was no reason to give the keys to the franchise to an unknown commodity vs. the guy who took your team to within 2 wins of a World Series appearance. Shapiro's going to have to prove himself just like AA had when he was first hired.

92 win team 2 years ago...

 

[JS19]

92 win team 2 years ago...

A team that lost the wild card...

A team that consistently flopped back to mediocrity after...

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Of course I'm going to be skeptical when his record is nothing short of abysmal in recent times. I hope I get proven wrong, but I'm not going to be on Shapiro's ****, not right away when he's the reason why AA was driven out of Toronto. Especially when there was no reason to give the keys to the franchise to an unknown commodity vs. the guy who took your team to within 2 wins of a World Series appearance. Shapiro's going to have to prove himself just like AA had when he was first hired.

I understand why Anthopolous is popular around Toronto, however if you look at his tenure objectively, you'll see that until this season he had been an abject failure. Hadn't even come close to sniffing a playoff spot despite making tons of bold moves and consistently having a high payroll.

Under Shapiro from 2001-2015 the Indians were definitely a mixed bag, but still won 2 division titles and had a wild card appearance while winnings 90+ games 4 times. Something AA has only managed to do once in 6 seasons despite the luxury of a much higher payroll.

I'm not saying that Shapiro is perfect, but he has accomplished a lot more than AA ever has and its probably worth giving him a chance.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

A team that lost the wild card...

A team that consistently flopped back to mediocrity after...

AA's teams have been consistently mediocre until this season so that's not really a strong argument.

 

[Muston Atthews]

A team that lost the wild card...

A team that consistently flopped back to mediocrity after...

A team that won 2 more games than the Jays the year after losing in the wild card. A top 10 payroll vs a bottom 5

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

AA's teams have been consistently mediocre until this season so that's not really a strong argument.

Really. Until 5 months ago the "mediocrity" argument applies just as well to AA as it does to Shapiro.

Then AA, realizing that he was in a contract year and had a decent chance of not being around after it, said "**** it" and traded for Donaldson, Tulowitzki and Price: and signed Martin to a big FA contract.

A team that lost the wild card...

A team that consistently flopped back to mediocrity after...

Yeah, and the Jays will do the exact same thing if they don't find pitching, GOAT offense or not.

 

[JS19]

A team that won 2 more games than the Jays the year after losing in the wild card. A top 10 payroll vs a bottom 5

Are you really scraping down the bottom of the barrel to make that point? Both teams didn't make the playoffs, so who the **** cares about 2 wins in 2014? A bad attempt at grasping straws if I've ever seen one.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Are you really scraping down the bottom of the barrel to make that point? Both teams didn't make the playoffs, so who the **** cares about 2 wins in 2014? A bad attempt at grasping straws if I've ever seen one.

Me scraping the barrel? I'm glad you can now see how dumb your point is. You said the Indians were mediocre after their wild card year, yet the Indians performed better, what does that make the Jays? Your points are getting worse and more contradictory as we go on here...

 

[JS19]

Me scraping the barrel? I'm glad you can now see how dumb your point is. You said the Indians were mediocre after their wild card year, yet the Indians performed better, what does that make the Jays? Your points are getting worse and more contradictory as we go on here...

How is that getting contradictory? I have always stated consider teams that don't make the playoffs to be consistently mediocre. I don't give a flying **** about W-L records when playoffs are not in the picture. But keep calling me out while you keep shifting the goalposts.

 

[JS19]

I understand why Anthopolous is popular around Toronto, however if you look at his tenure objectively, you'll see that until this season he had been an abject failure. Hadn't even come close to sniffing a playoff spot despite making tons of bold moves and consistently having a high payroll.

Under Shapiro from 2001-2015 the Indians were definitely a mixed bag, but still won 2 division titles and had a wild card appearance while winnings 90+ games 4 times. Something AA has only managed to do once in 6 seasons despite the luxury of a much higher payroll.

I'm not saying that Shapiro is perfect, but he has accomplished a lot more than AA ever has and its probably worth giving him a chance.

Let's not forget that at least the first two years, AA had to deal with Ricciardi's hot garbage mess of a team, so it was obvious that they were in playoff contention then. I would argue that if you were to judge, at least judge from 2011-2012 since that's when he put his stamp on things (though I agree, even with .500 records under AA for 4 of the 6 seasons, the team was still hot garbage due to not making the playoffs). Additionally, there's also the disparity of years worked when comparing AA to Shapiro. Of course Shapiro's record is going to be sexy to some because of how long he's worked as a general manager and president. Whereas, AA only has 6 years of general managing.

AA's teams have been consistently mediocre until this season so that's not really a strong argument.

It still doesn't justify giving the keys to an outsider vs. using this as a chance for AA to build upon his successful season.

 

[Muston Atthews]

How is that getting contradictory? I have always stated consider teams that don't make the playoffs to be consistently mediocre. I don't give a flying **** about W-L records when playoffs are not in the picture. But keep calling me out while you keep shifting the goalposts.

I'm not shifting the goalposts. I'm wondering what the **** your point is at this time.

 

[JS19]

I'm not shifting the goalposts. I'm wondering what the **** your point is at this time.

You're the one who keeps changing the counterargument whenever I said that Cleveland lost the wild card game and flopped back to mediocrity in response to someone who thinks a 92-win team in 2013 justifies that I shouldn't be skeptical of Shapiro. Especially when you scraped farther than the bottom of the barrel to bring up such an unnecessary W-L record, when BOTH teams didn't even make the playoffs.

 

[Muston Atthews]

You're the one who keeps changing the counterargument whenever I said that Cleveland lost the wild card game and flopped back to mediocrity in response to someone who thinks a 92-win team in 2013 justifies that I shouldn't be skeptical of Shapiro. Especially when you scraped farther than the bottom of the barrel to bring up such an unnecessary W-L record, when BOTH teams didn't even make the playoffs.

You have previously said that AA has a better track record than Shapiro. You disagree with that. People show you why you're wrong and you come up with new parameters to discredit that. People argue that point and you contradict your previous points that you have moved from. And then when someone brings this up, you say the goal posts are shifting. This is how this conversation has went.

 

[JS19]

You have previously said that AA has a better track record than Shapiro. You disagree with that. People show you why you're wrong and you come up with new parameters to discredit that. People argue that point and you contradict your previous points that you have moved from. And then when someone brings this up, you say the goal posts are shifting. This is how this conversation has went.

I never actually said that AA has a better track record than Shapiro. I was questioning that people have such faith in Shapiro when his recent years have not justified the overwhelming faith from some of the people here have in him. Even if you argue that Shapiro had to deal with a small budget, then you'd expect to see Cleveland having one of the best farm systems in the MLB to compensate for not signing huge free agents, or making the big trades. And instead, that's not the case. Which makes me question whether Shapiro is the right man for the job. Even if all of you think so, that doesn't mean I'm going to think the same way immediately. I'd still much rather have AA making the decisions than Shapiro.

My viewpoint is that I'd rather stick with AA and give him a chance to build onto the success that he has been responsible for, than to ruffle the boat and go with an outsider who's unproven with the Jays. There's no reason to start undermining the GM that set the team up to be successful now and the following year(s). That being said, I'm not going to warm up to Shapiro right away, he needs to prove that he is the right guy to have the power that he has in regards to baseball operations. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Shapiro ends up being the better choice over AA in terms of drafting, player development, and team success, I will gladly eat crow, but I won't fall head over moon in love with him.

 

[Rocko604]

I understand why Anthopolous is popular around Toronto, however if you look at his tenure objectively, you'll see that until this season he had been an abject failure. Hadn't even come close to sniffing a playoff spot despite making tons of bold moves and consistently having a high payroll.

Under Shapiro from 2001-2015 the Indians were definitely a mixed bag, but still won 2 division titles and had a wild card appearance while winnings 90+ games 4 times. Something AA has only managed to do once in 6 seasons despite the luxury of a much higher payroll.

I'm not saying that Shapiro is perfect, but he has accomplished a lot more than AA ever has and its probably worth giving him a chance.

Shapiro took over in 2002. 2001 was John Hart's last season. So, in 14 seasons, Shaprio won 1 division title and went above .500 only five times in a division wasn't exactly setting the baseball world on fire.

Shapiro took over a team that won 6 division titles and 2 ALCS championships in 7 years and ran them into the ground with the exception of 2007, where they blew a 3-1 lead in the ALCS to Boston. I don't consider losing game 163 in 2013 a playoff appearance.

AA took over for JP Richardi. That says it all.

Having said all that, I don't think AA is the type of manager or baseball guy you're going to build a contender around. He got lucky with the Donaldson trade (in that Beane was willing to part with him on the first offer), and the team rode the long ball into the post-season where it bit them in the ass.

Between AA and Shapiro, call it a wash. It won't surprise if Toronto fell back to 3rd-4th next year.

 

[Edo]

I never actually said that AA has a better track record than Shapiro. I was questioning that people have such faith in Shapiro when his recent years have not justified the overwhelming faith from some of the people here have in him. Even if you argue that Shapiro had to deal with a small budget, then you'd expect to see Cleveland having one of the best farm systems in the MLB to compensate for not signing huge free agents, or making the big trades. And instead, that's not the case. Which makes me question whether Shapiro is the right man for the job. Even if all of you think so, that doesn't mean I'm going to think the same way immediately. I'd still much rather have AA making the decisions than Shapiro.

My viewpoint is that I'd rather stick with AA and give him a chance to build onto the success that he has been responsible for, than to ruffle the boat and go with an outsider who's unproven with the Jays. There's no reason to start undermining the GM that set the team up to be successful now and the following year(s). That being said, I'm not going to warm up to Shapiro right away, he needs to prove that he is the right guy to have the power that he has in regards to baseball operations. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Shapiro ends up being the better choice over AA in terms of drafting, player development, and team success, I will gladly eat crow, but I won't fall head over moon in love with him.

Cleveland's payroll was 26th. A whopping 60 million less than Toronto. You would have to figure there is also a huge difference in budget for scouts too between the 2 clubs.

You can also look back and trash some of the moves AA has done. It sucks that Anthopoulos is gone, but it isn't the end of the world.

 

[JS19]

Shapiro took over in 2002. 2001 was John Hart's last season. So, in 14 seasons, Shaprio won 1 division title and went above .500 only five times in a division wasn't exactly setting the baseball world on fire.

Shapiro took over a team that won 6 division titles and 2 ALCS championships in 7 years and ran them into the ground with the exception of 2007, where they blew a 3-1 lead in the ALCS to Boston. I don't consider losing game 163 in 2013 a playoff appearance.

AA took over for JP Richardi. That says it all.

Having said all that, I don't think AA is the type of manager or baseball guy you're going to build a contender around. He got lucky with the Donaldson trade (in that Beane was willing to part with him on the first offer), and the team rode the long ball into the post-season where it bit them in the ass.

Between AA and Shapiro, call it a wash. It won't surprise if Toronto fell back to 3rd-4th next year.

You clearly haven't watched baseball if you think the Jays only knew how to "ride the long ball."

Cleveland's payroll was 26th. A whopping 60 million less than Toronto. You would have to figure there is also a huge difference in budget for scouts too between the 2 clubs.

You can also look back and trash some of the moves AA has done. It sucks that Anthopoulos is gone, but it isn't the end of the world.

It's not always budgetary differences between scouts of two different teams. Ricciardi was terrible at drafting and set the franchise back a few years and he's had the budget on his side vs. Anthopoulos who's created one of the best prospect pools before he traded some for roster depth.

The only move I'd trash AA for is Syndergaard for Dickey, but hindsight is 20/20. Baseball prospects are huge crapshoots, and Dickey still had a fantastic year (especially post-ASB in 2015). I can't really say there's much to hate about AA, as far as roster moves are concerned.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Shapiro took over a team that won 6 division titles and 2 ALCS championships in 7 years and ran them into the ground with the exception of 2007, where they blew a 3-1 lead in the ALCS to Boston. I don't consider losing game 163 in 2013 a playoff appearance.

AA took over for JP Richardi. That says it all.

Having said all that, I don't think AA is the type of manager or baseball guy you're going to build a contender around. He got lucky with the Donaldson trade (in that Beane was willing to part with him on the first offer), and the team rode the long ball into the post-season where it bit them in the ass.

Between AA and Shapiro, call it a wash. It won't surprise if Toronto fell back to 3rd-4th next year.

It is highly disingenuous to say he ran the team into the ground. That is when the Dolans took over and demanded the team go from a top payroll club to a low payroll club. That is the reason why Hart resigned. He wasn't comfortable working under those constraints. Shapiro had to slash payroll immediately and had set up the team for success until the careers of Hafner and Sizemore basically ended unexpectedly after the 2007 and 2008 seasons respectively.

If Shapiro had the same commitment from ownership that AA had that 2007 team would have continued to content, however what happened instead was he was ordered to trade away Sabathia, their reigning Cy Young award winner while at the same time Hafner's body completely eroded and then Sizemore's did too a year later.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

You clearly haven't watched baseball if you think the Jays only knew how to "ride the long ball."




It's not always budgetary differences between scouts of two different teams. Ricciardi was terrible at drafting and set the franchise back a few years and he's had the budget on his side vs. Anthopoulos who's created one of the best prospect pools before he traded some for roster depth.

The only move I'd trash AA for is Syndergaard for Dickey, but hindsight is 20/20. Baseball prospects are huge crapshoots, and Dickey still had a fantastic year (especially post-ASB in 2015). I can't really say there's much to hate about AA, as far as roster moves are concerned.

You don't need hindsight to trash the Dickey deal. That was lunacy at the time and looks even worse now.

 

[hockeykicker]

 

[Muston Atthews]

Maybe he'll replace Gibby.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

I couldn't see AA fitting in well with the Marlins. He's a guy who needs a big payroll. He's used to trading away prospects, not for prospects. AA would be a better fit in a place that can offer him at least a reasonable payroll and near full autonomy. Neither of which he would have in Miami. If the Tigers had an opening they would be the perfect fit for him I'd say.

 

[robert terwilliger]

we've reached the point of the argument where there's no way forward without doubling down.

"look all i'm saying is that mark shapiro is everything wrong with baseball and should be thrown out of the league"

 

[robert terwilliger]

yeah the marlins don't have much in the cupboard. stanton is the type of guy anthopoulos trades the farm for not trades for the farm.

though if he went to florida and rebuilt it well he might be closer to shapiro.