Player Discussion Adam Larsson: Part III

[CupofOil]

The problem is virtually nothing was his fault.

His job was to produce offense and tilt the ice, and he did that. Well. Without nearly the help that the current Oilers team has. This group is a lot more than just the old Oilers with Adam Larsson and without Taylor Hall.

If you put Adam Larsson on any Oilers team prior to Connor McDavid and took Hall off, they're worse. Certain members of this board are ridiculously single-minded and seem to have no problem conflating the success of a team with the addition or subtraction of a single player.

The Oilers were at the bottom of the league every year Hall was on the team outside of the lockout shortened season in which they were spiraling towards the basement. Not blaming Hall for that although he should own some of the blame as one of the team leaders all those years but I have a hard time believing that the Oilers would have been even worse with Larsson and no Hall.
Hell, they were at the bottom of the league even with McDavid and Talbot playing lights out, not to mention Hall as well.

My point is that having a solid defense is paramount in this league. Larsson changes the entire complexion of the defense. It allows Klefbom more freedom to activate offensively and it knocks down Sekera and Benning into roles that are more suited for their abilities. If Larsson had been around prior to McDavid coming here, players like Petry would have been much better because he would have been playing in the Sekera role as a support D and not as a #1, same goes for Schultz who would have been properly sheltered. One dimensional wingers, even if that dimension is high end like driving offense in Hall's case, are limited in how much they can impact overall team success.

There are many factors that have driven Oiler success this season like more balanced forward group, healthy Klefbom, more defensive depth, internal growth and 2nd season under a competent coaching system but Larsson is right up there at the top. If you swap out Larsson for Hall, this is a worse team and possibly significantly so. You'd probably have to take Lucic out too because I firmly believe that the Hall trade facilitated him signing here.

 

[Kerricthebig]

Klefbom and Larsson are different kind of players. Larsson excel in the defensive side of the game, shut down defenseman, also delivering tons of hits. Klefbom is more offensive gifted with one of the hardest slapshots in the entire NHL.
100,5mph in this recent blast, making it look easy, look at the slow motion starting at 00:48 for pure power and strength.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nKfthKLSNo

Having said this Larsson do have an offensive upside but it depends on the role and how the team plays, what the coach wants him to do.
*snip

It's actually funny, because when they were drafted Larsson was seen as the offensively gifted, 2-way defender, and Klefbom was seen as the solid shutdown guy. Now 6 years later they have swapped those roles.

 

[MaxR11]

Any analysis of Hall's impact (or lack thereof) on the oiler's team success, must be viewed through the lens of Dallas Eakins. The oilers were showing marked improvement year over year until Eakins came along and the team bottomed out again.

Hall, for all his physical gifts and talents, is only one guy. The coach has a much more pervasive impact on how the team as a whole plays/performs.

Of course I'm not absolving Hall of all responsibility. The locker room culture during his tenure here as a leader was characterized by a lack of mental fortitude and constant frustration. As a self proclaimed leader, Hall bears the brunt of the criticism there in my mind.

Very true. There are some people who only have a single line of thought of "hey, Hall was a good point producer, usually one of the higher point producer on his team, thus he is a great player and must be a positive influence on the team." That line of thought imo does not apply to all players and Hall is one of those players. The intangibles of mental weakness, being a subpar teammate, irresponsible play, general putting team success below personal success etc etc ( which imo I believe to be true regarding Hall) definitely makes Hall a net negative effect on his team as it affects his teammates performance negatively and their general outlook on the team itself.

It is no coincidence that the Oilers players have been raving all year about how this is a closer knit team who plays for each other now and have faith in one another and that everyone accepts one another now and that had not been the case in the past. I swear some of the interviews were a subtle disguised jab at Hall from his former teammates. Strongly believe Hall held this team back and negatively affected players on this team in years past. I know we had a lot of "crummy" players here in the past but I question how many of them under performed because of the poor culture that was here. Who knows how Larsson would look here under that poor culture. He may be closer to a Mark Fayne than we think. But now the culture is MUCH better and I associate that, in part, with no more Hall here. I think in the future there will be more players coming forward about what a negative impact Hall had been here.

 

[Aerchon]

I did. But good response. Really top notch stuff here.

Since it wasn't clearly stated: You make it sound like Hall was the reason the Oilers were bad and the Devils are bad.

That's not true. Your own selective bias is getting in the way.

Lol. Give it a rest.

Its like trying to explain something to a tree. I am not saying Hall is to blame. What I am saying very clearly is that an elite right shooting shutdown defender is far more important to a team than a one dimensional left winger. Aka Hall was one of the best left wingers in the game but left wingers are THE most common and THE least impactful positions in todays game.

The proof, as much as is humanly possible in these situations, is right there for all to see.

I have no bias. Loved Hall during his time here. Love Larsson now.

You keep trying to project your bias on others. Thats your thing I guess. I love how its so obvious and so many hockey pundits, outside of the most overzealous advanced stats geeks that dont actually watch the games, have come forward to eat crow on the subject after blasting the trade with no actual knowledge of either player.

I have honestly never seen so much crow been graciously mowed down by very stubborn individuals.

You should join them

It's a great feeling to be almost completely happy with your team, its moves, and its management. Its certainly long overdue here.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Lol. Give it a rest.

Its like trying to explain something to a tree. I am not saying Hall is to blame. What I am saying very clearly is that an elite right shooting shutdown defender is far more important to a team than a one dimensional left winger. Aka Hall was one of the best left wingers in the game but left wingers are THE most common and THE least impactful positions in todays game.

The proof, as much as is humanly possible in these situations, is right there for all to see.

I have no bias. Loved Hall during his time here. Love Larsson now. Go re read my posts when the trade happened. I said wait and see. So you can forget this crow bull ****.

You keep trying to project your bias on others. Thats your thing I guess. I love how its so obvious and so many hockey pundits, outside of the most overzealous advanced stats geeks that dont actually watch the games, have come forward to eat crow on the subject after blasting the trade with no actual knowledge of either player.

I have honestly never seen so much crow been graciously mowed down by very stubborn individuals.

You should join them

It's a great feeling to be almost completely happy with your team, its moves, and its management. Its certainly long overdue here.

What's with the dumb stat geek jab? What does this have to do with anytbig?

Please stop. The Oilers lost the trade on value. I love Larsson and Hall but let's stop this ignorant trash that the Oilers fleeced the Devils.

I love how you say the evidence is right in front of us, but then go out of your way to trash stats. Who's the tree here?

 

[Panda Bear]

We lost the trade in value when it was made, but value has a lot to do with perception and reputation.

Hall is a former first overall with a resume. Larsson fell off the map, picked up his game outside of the public eye, and only NJ knew his actual worth when they made the trade.

If you made the trade again today, do we win, lose or draw getting Hall back?

 

[TheNumber4]

What's with the dumb stat geek jab? What does this have to do with anytbig?

Please stop. The Oilers lost the trade on value. I love Larsson and Hall but let's stop this ignorant trash that the Oilers fleeced the Devils.

I love how you say the evidence is right in front of us, but then go out of your way to trash stats. Who's the tree here?

To Bolded:
Who says this? I havent seen that narrative pushed here. General consensus is Oilers lost the trade on value (it seems presently) but it was huge win for the team.

 

[Mr Positive]

We lost the trade in value when it was made, but value has a lot to do with perception and reputation.

Hall is a former first overall with a resume. Larsson fell off the map, picked up his game outside of the public eye, and only NJ knew his actual worth when they made the trade.

If you made the trade again today, do we win, lose or draw getting Hall back?

The results in the standings don't change the fact that defensive players don't get the kind of trade value and dollars that point-producers get. Hall still has more value today. It's just that more people are starting to understand that building a team is not about accumulating player value. Team need is actually more important, whether it be in trades, signings, or the draft.

 

[bobbythebrain]

By the end of these playoffs Larsson will have more value around the NHL than Hall

 

[ujju2]

A lot of Devils fans saying they lost the trade, we like it so far, so maybe its even, being tilted to our favour?

 

[oobga]

A lot of Devils fans saying they lost the trade, we like it so far, so maybe its even, being tilted to our favour?

They just failed to fix the big hole in their D. Hynes went all in last season relying on Larsson/Greene to try to neutralize top players to try to win low scoring 1 goal games. Would have been nice to just add Hall to bolster the offensive side of that strategy, but he ended up with just Greene alone as a reliable D that could handle the hellish zone starts he gave the Greene/Larsson pair. Game plan fell apart, and they just kinda looked like an old Oilers team of Hall trying to save the day with everything else without him on the ice in shambles.

The Oilers on the other hand, already had the players to fill the hole Hall left. We barely missed a beat and that's even with 3-4 guys having lousy offensive years by their standards, and Pulju waiting in the wings.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

They just failed to fix the big hole in their D. Hynes went all in last season relying on Larsson/Greene to try to neutralize top players to try to win low scoring 1 goal games. Would have been nice to just add Hall to bolster the offensive side of that strategy, but he ended up with just Greene alone as a reliable D that could handle the hellish zone starts he gave the Greene/Larsson pair. Game plan fell apart, and they just kinda looked like an old Oilers team of Hall trying to save the day with everything else without him on the ice in shambles.

The Oilers on the other hand, already had the players to fill the hole Hall left. We barely missed a beat and that's even with 3-4 guys having lousy offensive years by their standards, and Pulju waiting in the wings.

aren't there rumours that Hall and Shattenkirk are friends? (how? where?)

I would not be surprised if NJ went in on this to try and get them both added to their core. Which is a good move sort of.....if there other D pan out they could be like a better version of Carolina...maybe....

But yeah....I loved the deal when it happened and instantly wondered what on earth NJ was thinking leaving themselves that big of a hole.....

 

[bobbythebrain]

aren't there rumours that Hall and Shattenkirk are friends? (how? where?)

I would not be surprised if NJ went in on this to try and get them both added to their core. Which is a good move sort of.....if there other D pan out they could be like a better version of Carolina...maybe....

But yeah....I loved the deal when it happened and instantly wondered what on earth NJ was thinking leaving themselves that big of a hole.....

My guess is that NJ will look to get a shutdown guy like Alzner as this is an area that clearly hurt them.

 

[MoneyGuy]

What's this lost-the-trade-on-value nonsense? We won the trade. That's it! I wouldn't take Hall back for Larsson even if they upped the ante. Larsson is a stud and will get better and better and fills a huge team need.

 

[Panda Bear]

If NJ somehow grabbed Alzner and Shattenkirk, they're a playoff bubble team.

 

[shoop]

What's this lost-the-trade-on-value nonsense? We won the trade. That's it! I wouldn't take Hall back for Larsson even if they upped the ante. Larsson is a stud and will get better and better and fills a huge team need.

The nonsensical argument is the only way for people to try and justify their claims that the Oilers lost the trade.

Agreed on not taking Hall back. The improvement in the locker room with Hall gone is another factor in not doing that trade again.

 

[Pools Closed*]

Wish we could talk about Larsson without bringing up Hall. I'm still pissed at the trade and I'd do anything to have him back on the team but Larsson has been great and the ransom we paid to acquire him doesn't change that. Use the trade to judge Chia, not Larsson.

 

[MaxR11]

Wish we could talk about Larsson without bringing up Hall. I'm still pissed at the trade and I'd do anything to have him back on the team but Larsson has been great and the ransom we paid to acquire him doesn't change that. Use the trade to judge Chia, not Larsson.

Chia is a very smart man. He knew he wanted to get rid of Hall to improve the team culture, unity and overall responsible and TEAM play on the ice and he did. And it WORKED. I pretty much know the organization was wanting to get rid of Hall last summer almost to the point of no matter what they got in return. We got lucky and Larsson has really developed into a solid defender for us this year. I'll say it again. If we magically got Hall back on this roster and gave up nothing, we would be a WORSE team. Team unity, belief, cohesiveness mental strength and team play on ice will would decrease. His unwillingness to play a total team game would spread to other players and they would also start to play a bit more of the cheating and irresponsible side of things and things could easily unravel from there. It's a fine line between playing as a cohesively strong team and playing slightly more like individuals. Little things could set of a domino affect in the wrong direction.

 

[guymez]

To Bolded:
Who says this? I havent seen that narrative pushed here. General consensus is Oilers lost the trade on value (it seems presently) but it was huge win for the team.

Thats my take as well. Its time to move on.

 

[Mr Positive]

what's funny about the trade is that perception of it has changed immensely, even with outsiders, but both players haven't been better or worse really since changing teams. Larsson was the defensive work horse for NJ, with few points, and that's what he is here. Hall is one of the best point producers for the Devils, with similar production as he had here.

 

[tempest2i]

what's funny about the trade is that perception of it has changed immensely, even with outsiders, but both players haven't been better or worse really since changing teams. Larsson was the defensive work horse for NJ, with few points, and that's what he is here. Hall is one of the best point producers for the Devils, with similar production as he had here.

What I find funny about this trade is when folks are defending it, it clearly identifies people who value offence over defence (and vice versa).

 

[CupofOil]

What's this lost-the-trade-on-value nonsense? We won the trade. That's it! I wouldn't take Hall back for Larsson even if they upped the ante. Larsson is a stud and will get better and better and fills a huge team need.

I don't get it either.

What is Hall's "true value" and what's Larsson's "true value".

People keep beating the drum still to this day that the Oilers lost in value but gained in need. When has a player like Hall ever returned more than Larsson with $2M cap savings? The only recent comparables we can use to judge are Kessel and Nash.
Is a good prospect+1st worth more than Larsson? Obviously not
Is Dubinsky+Anisimov+prospect+1st worth more than Larsson? Perhaps but Nash was certainly higher regarded than Hall at the time. Multiple 40 goal scorer, Team Canada member etc.

So why is it assumed that the Oilers lost on value? I'd like to stop talking about the trade altogether but I just wanted to figured why his value is assumed to be greater than Larsson's especially when taking contracts into account. What's the precedent that led to this assumption?

 

[CupofOil]

what's funny about the trade is that perception of it has changed immensely, even with outsiders, but both players haven't been better or worse really since changing teams. Larsson was the defensive work horse for NJ, with few points, and that's what he is here. Hall is one of the best point producers for the Devils, with similar production as he had here.

It's quite simple. The Oilers are winning and the Devils are losing.
Also, Larsson is getting more publicity as a result and people are starting to appreciate how good he is because he's not playing in relative obscurity anymore. I don't think the perception of Hall has changed, just that the perception of Larsson has.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Last night the Ducks got 40 shots on net.

Nobody stood in to screen. All rebounds were immediately cleared.


That's worth more than Hall. So any talk about value is wrong. Please provide evidence that top 2 right handed defensemen are traded for less.

 

[elmaco]

Give me a future #1D over a few years of prime Hall anyday.