Player Discussion Adam Larsson: Part III

[0ilerman]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/adam-larssons-oilers-prevail-game-taylor-halls-never/

Spector nailed it on this one

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

I'd agree that hall gets some unjustified criticism, but you can't call this w/w when nj just finished dead last in the east. It could change, but it's looking like a pretty big win for edmonton so far...

Hockey is a team sport. They got what most people viewed as the higher value player.

We fill our #1 need (top pairing dman), while addressing a multitude of other needs (penalty killer, outlet pass, team toughness). And we didn't lose much on value because Larsson was supremely underrated.

People need to stop bringing up Hall every time Larsson does anything of note. He's a good enough player that his play justifies praise without dragging Hall through the mud.

 

[Cawz]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/adam-larssons-oilers-prevail-game-taylor-halls-never/

Spector nailed it on this one

I like this quote:

The stats geeks still hate the Hall trade. The reason? Because their craft isn’t far enough along at this point to quantify the qualities in Larsson’s game that makes Edmonton better.

I got into it with a few of those stats geeks trying to downplay Larsson because they rely on reading stats instead of understanding hockey.

 

[MaxR11]

I like this quote:

The stats geeks still hate the Hall trade. The reason? Because their craft isn’t far enough along at this point to quantify the qualities in Larsson’s game that makes Edmonton better.

I got into it with a few of those stats geeks trying to downplay Larsson because they rely on reading stats instead of understanding hockey.

I almost dislike those stats geeks more than Hall. It's almost as if they have no clue that hockey is a very dynamic sport where many intangibles make a huge difference in team success. This is not baseball where stats probably mean a whole lot more. Scott Cullen, that Henderson fellow etc. really **** me off at how stubborn they are when it comes to bashing a solid contributor like Russell and trying to pump the tires of negative contributors like Hall. Hockey is very much an eyeball test sport. takes a skilled scout to see potentially positive contributing players.

 

[McSpecial DraiBlend]

I love Larssons answer.
"I just give boring answers and they stop asking"

 

[Aerchon]

lol what? Possession and scoring chances and shots don't matter? In what sport? Certainly not hockey. I mean, that's how you score goals.

The Oilers are winning and the Devils are losing are not mutually about Larsson and Hall alone. That's the problem here. It's very short sighted. Are you saying that a healthy Klefbom, a healthy McDavid, a Vezina like season from Talbot all less important than having Adam Larsson? Because I'd have a tough time believing that. I think Larsson has been important but let's not kid ourselves.

Hall was a 53 point winger, on pace for 60 points, which would have been a team lead. On the Oilers, he would have been third behind McDavid and Draisaitl.

Again, you're making it sound like Hall was responsible for the team's "inability to win". The problem here is the following:

Hall's teams had defencemen like Andrew Ference, Andy Sutton, Jim Vandermeer, Cam Barker, Nikita Nikitin, Anton Belov, Nick Schultz, Alex Plante, Colton Teubert, Brad Hunt, Mark Fistric, Theo Peckham and much more bad on the backend.

Hall's teams had goaltending gems like an old Nikolai Khabibulin, Jason Labarbera, Devan Dubnyk before being outstanding, Ben Scrivens, Viktor Fasth,Ilya Bryzgalov.

The argument that the team couldn't win with Hall is crap. Of course they couldn't. They didn't supply his core with actual NHL players. That's on management, not Taylor Hall.

Your selective reading is hilariously in conjunction with your selective bias towards one dimensional wingers.

You didn't respond to anything I stated and just went off on yor own little rant.

 

[McQuixote]

People need to stop bringing up Hall every time Larsson does anything of note. He's a good enough player that his play justifies praise without dragging Hall through the mud.

Right, no need to hate on Hall. One can say the trade was worth it without disrespecting the big price we paid to get Larsson. And Hall is, of course, not the reason the Devils failed to make the playoffs.

 

[dustrock]

Larsson is great. Not sure he's better than Klefbom but they complement each other very well.

Consider it would take Draiisaitl, Klefbom and Puljujarvi to get Subban, though that might seem better than Hall-Larsson short-term, long term it's a killer.

You only get the true #1D through a ridiculous UFA overpay or through a ridiculous trade.

Given that everyone in the entire world knew what the Oilers needed, AND he got a young financially stable d-man, it was a lost battle that helped us win the war.

 

[McFlyingV]

Larsson is great. Not sure he's better than Klefbom but they complement each other very well.

Consider it would take Draiisaitl, Klefbom and Puljujarvi to get Subban, though that might seem better than Hall-Larsson short-term, long term it's a killer.

You only get the true #1D through a ridiculous UFA overpay or through a ridiculous trade.

Given that everyone in the entire world knew what the Oilers needed, AND he got a young financially stable d-man, it was a lost battle that helped us win the war.

TFW you're paying your top pair 600k less than Subban's cap hit and you got to keep your 2nd #1C and a blue chip prospect.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Your selective reading is hilariously in conjunction with your selective bias towards one dimensional wingers.

You didn't respond to anything I stated and just went off on yor own little rant.

I did. But good response. Really top notch stuff here.

Since it wasn't clearly stated: You make it sound like Hall was the reason the Oilers were bad and the Devils are bad.

That's not true. Your own selective bias is getting in the way.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Agreed. Its a big myth that Hall was some sort of "driver". He got prime minutes on a garbage team and was never able to drag his team to a single playoff the way a guy like Tavares has.

If people are going to throw words like driver around they need to look at a guy like Leon and refer to Klef's comments on Hall and how he never ever showed up when the team needed someone to rise to the occassion.

Tavares had much better supporting casts defensively and in net compared to Hall's Oilers teams.

 

[Bangers]

I almost dislike those stats geeks more than Hall. It's almost as if they have no clue that hockey is a very dynamic sport where many intangibles make a huge difference in team success. This is not baseball where stats probably mean a whole lot more. Scott Cullen, that Henderson fellow etc. really **** me off at how stubborn they are when it comes to bashing a solid contributor like Russell and trying to pump the tires of negative contributors like Hall. Hockey is very much an eyeball test sport. takes a skilled scout to see potentially positive contributing players.

There are two sides to that coin.

After every game, you'll see multiple posters on here (who are both very well-informed about the game) that have completely different takes on how well Player A player the game based on the eyeball test. The reason people go to stats is to gain an objective view on how a player performed; the problem is that most advanced stats out there right seem to be noise rather than indicators of performance.

 

[Kolja]

You make it sound like Hall was the reason the Oilers were bad and the Devils are bad.

That's not true.

He sure as hell wasn't part of the solution here nor in NJ.

 

[Kolja]

People keep saying that we should stop talking about Hall when we talk about Larsson. However, that trade is now part of the mythology that makes the fabric of what we know as the Edmonton Oilers. It will be talked about today, tomorrow and fifty years from now. Everyone in Edmonton will remember exactly were they where when they heard the news. How devistated they where and how well it turned out when Lars hosited the cup.

Just embrace it!

 

[SK13]

He sure as hell wasn't part of the solution here nor in NJ.

Such garbage.

 

[McShogun99]

People keep saying that we should stop talking about Hall when we talk about Larsson. However, that trade is now part of the mythology that makes the fabric of what we know as the Edmonton Oilers. It will be talked about today, tomorrow and fifty years from now. Everyone in Edmonton will remember exactly were they where when they heard the news. How devistated they where and how well it turned out when Lars hosited the cup.

Just embrace it!

There's 3 places I'll always remember where I was when the Oilers traded/acquired certain players. Gretzky trade, winning the Mcdavid lottery and Hall trade. Obviously Hall will never be in the same caliber as Gretzky or Mcdavid but he was out first ever 1st OA pick and was one of the top scoring LWs in the league. It was memorable to me because I thought we got fleeced at the time for getting Larsson, I was so pissed. By the time we were in November I knew it was a good trade. Larsson was so much more than I thought he was, a legitimate top pairing defenceman on most team. Plus he has a mean streak that I knew nothing about.

 

[JarvisFunk]

Such garbage.

What part of that statement is false? Certainly not everything is his fault, but he hasn't improved the state of either team.

 

[SK13]

What part of that statement is false? Certainly not everything is his fault, but he hasn't improved the state of either team.

The problem is virtually nothing was his fault.

His job was to produce offense and tilt the ice, and he did that. Well. Without nearly the help that the current Oilers team has. This group is a lot more than just the old Oilers with Adam Larsson and without Taylor Hall.

If you put Adam Larsson on any Oilers team prior to Connor McDavid and took Hall off, they're worse. Certain members of this board are ridiculously single-minded and seem to have no problem conflating the success of a team with the addition or subtraction of a single player.

 

[21]

Larsson is great. Not sure he's better than Klefbom but they complement each other very well.

Consider it would take Draiisaitl, Klefbom and Puljujarvi to get Subban, though that might seem better than Hall-Larsson short-term, long term it's a killer.

You only get the true #1D through a ridiculous UFA overpay or through a ridiculous trade.

Given that everyone in the entire world knew what the Oilers needed, AND he got a young financially stable d-man, it was a lost battle that helped us win the war.

Klefbom and Larsson are different kind of players. Larsson excel in the defensive side of the game, shut down defenseman, also delivering tons of hits. Klefbom is more offensive gifted with one of the hardest slapshots in the entire NHL.

100,5mph in this recent blast, making it look easy, look at the slow motion starting at 00:48 for pure power and strength.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nKfthKLSNo

Having said this Larsson do have an offensive upside but it depends on the role and how the team plays, what the coach wants him to do.

The Oilers are an offensive team and then you better have strong stay at home shut down defensemen like Larsson otherwise you will be in big trouble. I would like them to get another young promising shutdown defenseman, Patrik Nemeth in Dallas and I'm sure they would get him very cheap (this guy has a huge upside as a shut down defensman). Larsson and Nemeth on the same team would be.... impressive. ;-)

Taylor Hall is a great guy and player too but the Oilers needed a good defenceman, simple as that, unfortunately for Taylor he had to be sacrificed and now it is up for him to prove his greatness in New Jersey.

 

[Fourier]

There are two sides to that coin.

After every game, you'll see multiple posters on here (who are both very well-informed about the game) that have completely different takes on how well Player A player the game based on the eyeball test. The reason people go to stats is to gain an objective view on how a player performed; the problem is that most advanced stats out there right seem to be noise rather than indicators of performance.

This is exactly how I see it as well.

 

[Dieseloil]

Larsson is great. Not sure he's better than Klefbom but they complement each other very well.

Consider it would take Draiisaitl, Klefbom and Puljujarvi to get Subban, though that might seem better than Hall-Larsson short-term, long term it's a killer.

You only get the true #1D through a ridiculous UFA overpay or through a ridiculous trade.

Given that everyone in the entire world knew what the Oilers needed, AND he got a young financially stable d-man, it was a lost battle that helped us win the war.

I wouldn't trade Leon straight up for overrated/paid Subban, Leon will be one of the most coveted players soon enough.

 

[harpoon]

What part of that statement is false? Certainly not everything is his fault, but he hasn't improved the state of either team.

How do you know this?
Are you saying Oilers circa 2010-16 would have actually been better without Hall?
And the Devils 2016-17 would also have been a superior squad if Hall had just stayed home.
Do you see how ridiculous your hyperbole is?

 

[nightfighter]

Any analysis of Hall's impact (or lack thereof) on the oiler's team success, must be viewed through the lens of Dallas Eakins. The oilers were showing marked improvement year over year until Eakins came along and the team bottomed out again.

Hall, for all his physical gifts and talents, is only one guy. The coach has a much more pervasive impact on how the team as a whole plays/performs.

Of course I'm not absolving Hall of all responsibility. The locker room culture during his tenure here as a leader was characterized by a lack of mental fortitude and constant frustration. As a self proclaimed leader, Hall bears the brunt of the criticism there in my mind.

 

[harpoon]

As a self proclaimed leader, Hall bears the brunt of the criticism there in my mind.

I think your post is mostly fair, unlike many in this thread.
But regarding the above, shall we save a little criticism for the guys who were the team proclaimed leaders?
I'm talking about Horcoff - who spent more time worrying about his NHLPA career and stroking his nose like a Roman senator while giving weak, meaningless, cliche ridden post game pressers after every game?
And I'm talking about Ference - that utter joke who had maybe twenty good games total in an Oilers jersey before spending the rest of his contract years lollygagging on IR, jogging with Eakins, and drinking wheatgrass shakes while checking to see if he'd picked up any new twitter followers.
Those two guys somehow get so little criticism.
Its almost as if nobody ever expected them to live up to their paychecks or the C on their sweaters.

 

[Gone]

I wouldn't trade Leon straight up for overrated/paid Subban, Leon will be one of the most coveted players soon enough.

The rate at which Leon is improving from the start of his career to know is astounding, and given that trajectory wonder if we have yet to see his full potential. That 4 point game may have just been a glimpse of the future.