Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV

[JetsFan815]

More than the audience reaction, the bigger concern has to be the psychological impact of the show revealing the biggest twists of his story before he can.

Imagine for 20 years having the mad queen Dany storyline in your head and end up not being the one to reveal that to your audience. If it were me that would demotivate me for sure and make it harder to be able to put the story to paper now that it is already "spoiled" by another piece of media.

 

[Ainec]

Except that isn't the case, or isn't solely the case. Many people are furious that Dany went Mad Queen and are furious Jaime went back to Cersei. There's a lot of criticisms coming from a lot of different angles.

I don't think it changes anything. He knew people would be furious about the Red Wedding too, he doesn't and shouldn't care.

The criticism over the show was in full blast after episode 3, and was at its heights in ep 4

 

[The Shadow]

Knowing the way GRRM is he will come up with a completely new ending

He lives for surprise and I can’t see him in any way putting out the same exact story

Now he sees the backlash from everyone about the show quality. I feel this will delay his last two books even more to change things from what we’re seeing on tv

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Seeing what we have with the show I think I have it more or less worked out. I'm thinking the Others will be defeated first and the story will end cleaning up who will rule what, but it's not going to be a 'the Whitewalkers were a red herring, the real story was always about the Throne' thing that you're getting from the TV thread.

A key point of distinction between the two is the Night King. I think the Others being a creation of the Children of the Forest will stick, but with the show creating the Night King they created a single point of emphasis on the threat where they could drop all the history and lore and defeat it with an assassins Valyrian steel dagger. The Night King doesn't exist in the same way in the books, the "Others" were beings that were sealed in a tomb who got let out because Mance Rayder went digging for treasure - this isn't in the show. It's also been implied that the Others are directly related to the wonky winter weather schedule.

With the Others rising to strength Westeros is due for another "Long Night". The winter in the books is going to be far more dreadful than the occasional slight dusting they showed in the show, it will threaten everyone and the only way out is to tie together all the prophecies and build up and end the threat once and for all. This is basically the "Winds of Winter" which seems like it should be two books, especially since you got a number of chapters that couldn't be fit into Dance dumped into it (Dance+Feast+these chapters maybe should have been 3 books).

Which finally leads us to A Dream of Spring. People have been going back and forth on the influence The Scouring of the Shire has on the series, and I think it would similar to that but not really the same thing. Rather this is the Song of Ice and Fire, Jon and Dany's story that will eventually intertwine, and Dream isn't about who sits the Iron Throne but rather the conclusion of this 'song'. That you don't just get a happy ending after defeating the big bad guys, rather it's how Jon and Dany cope in the aftermath leading to a "bittersweet" ending - like Dany goes nuts and burns everything so Jon has to kill her

Good post. This is more or less how I see things playing out, as well.

However, I don’t think the Others will be unceremoniously dropped as they were in the show. I still believe plotlines will converge, and Jon’s inevitable conflict with Dany will take place within the backdrop of the Long Night. I would hope these things converge. Otherwise, Martin has his work cut out for him.

I’ve studied Tolkien and his influence on genre fiction ever since grad school. I would never have a genuinely bad thing to say about his work. Even the Scouring serves a profound thematic purpose within the context of LotR’s overarching morality.

However.

There’s a reason the Scouring is often cited as the one blemish in LotR. Greater thematic meaning or not, it was a stark regression of stakes. Establishing and resolving stakes in the proper order is a critical part of pacing a satisfying story. This is why rising action-climax-falling action has been the unchanged core of drama for hundreds of years. The Scouring breaks from that to varying opinions of success.

I just don’t see how Martin dismisses the Others as flippantly as the show did. Resolving that conflict and those stakes, and then asking the audience to emotionally invest in a lesser conflict and stakes, would require a Herculean writing effort. It’s not impossible, but Tolkien himself arguably failed.

Moreover, the Others dismissal wasn’t simply another subversive plot turn. It was an outright shucking of fundamental rules of storytelling. It’s not breaking the same rules the Red Wedding broke. The Red Wedding broke storytelling cliches, not storytelling rules. The Red Wedding also increased the stakes for our remaining protagonists, not shrink them. In terms of story structure, the Red Wedding was simply another “scene disaster,” a term well known in fiction writing (see: Jack Bickham). The dismissal of the Others arguably broke the vaunted “reader contract” by essentially copping out of any greater narrative or thematic meaning behind dozens of storylines. The Red Wedding and the dismissal of the Others do not operate in the same universe of “subversion.”

Lastly, I’m glad you admit here that “iT wAs aLwAyS aBoUt tHe ThRoNe” is an idiotic explanation, and sorely lacking any insight into what this story has always attempted to tell us via its subtext. On that we agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Knowing the way GRRM is he will come up with a completely new ending

He lives for surprise and I can’t see him in any way putting out the same exact story

Now he sees the backlash from everyone about the show quality. I feel this will delay his last two books even more to change things from what we’re seeing on tv

That would be a huge punk move on his part.

 

[Emperoreddy]

https://news.avclub.com/george-r-r-...msite&utm_source=avclub_copy&utm_campaign=top

George says the books are not finished and there is no secret deal.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Man, if what George says is true, which it most likely is, then Ian Mcelhinney is likely looking at a lawsuit coming his way.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Man, if what George says is true, which it most likely is, then Ian Mcelhinney is likely looking at a lawsuit coming his way.

George about to have Barristan go down like a bitch exactly as the show version did as revenge.

GRRM also mentions he has not started writing Dream and won’t until Winds is finished. I know someone brought up the idea the hold up was him starting Dreams.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

The criticism over the show was in full blast after episode 3, and was at its heights in ep 4

Well yeah, those episodes featured character arcs going a certain way amongst other things. Not every critic is on the same page, not remotely.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

George about to have Barristan go down like a ***** exactly as the show version did as revenge.

GRRM also mentions he has not started writing Dream and won’t until Winds is finished. I know someone brought up the idea the hold up was him starting Dreams.

I believe that was me, and if he's being truthful, which he almost certainly is, then I'm with you. I dont think he ever finishes.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

After having read George's post, I think I'm done with the series. I've been a massive fan of the series forecer, but I think I've lost all hope in George ever completing the series.

The series is dead, lads.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I believe that was me, and if he's being truthful, which he almost certainly is, then I'm with you. I dont think he ever finishes.

It’s hard to see how he does it. Winds is still not done according to this update.

I don’t think he knows how to get the story to this point, while giving all his characters full arcs that fit his standard of logic.

I feel like their has to exist a middle ground between the show’s bull rush the finish and George’s meandering stalemate, but I also don’t think he sees or is capable of going that route.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

It’s hard to see how he does it. Winds is still not done according to this update.

I don’t think he knows how to get the story to this point, while giving all his characters full arcs that fit his standard of logic.

I feel like their has to exist a middle ground between the show’s bull rush the finish and George’s meandering stalemate, but I also don’t think he sees or is capable of going that route.

Yeah, I dont either. I thought perhaps he maybe had somewhat of a head start, given he really did seem to think the series could be done before the show(it'd be impossible otherwise), maybe using some of that writers block time to jump ahead with certain storylines, but I guess not. The one hope is that Spring might be the easier and faster book to write, but even then what's that timeline if Winds isn't done? A decade at best?

I definitely think there's a middle ground, I just dont think he's capable of it. You saw how the show could efficiently move on from some storylines, like with the sept, and it's all real world problems that limited the last two seasons to 13 episodes instead of 20(and maybe another season of 10 if that wasn't enough). I get why they chose to be efficient in their own way about it but they didn't have to, just like George doesn't have to and didn't have to keep adding to it. But yeah, I don't think he will.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Yeah, I dont either. I thought perhaps he maybe had somewhat of a head start, given he really did seem to think the series could be done before the show(it'd be impossible otherwise), maybe using some of that writers block time to jump ahead with certain storylines, but I guess not. The one hope is that Spring might be the easier and faster book to write, but even then what's that timeline if Winds isn't done? A decade at best?

I definitely think there's a middle ground, I just dont think he's capable of it. You saw how the show could efficiently move on from some storylines, like with the sept, and it's all real world problems that limited the last two seasons to 13 episodes instead of 20(and maybe another season of 10 if that wasn't enough). I get why they chose to be efficient in their own way about it but they didn't have to, just like George doesn't have to and didn't have to keep adding to it. But yeah, I don't think he will.

This is very quickly becoming the impossible story.

I remember people thinking Winds was going to come along quickly because Dance solved the Mereenese knot. It now has taken ever longer then it took to get Dance.

Another writer is going to have to make the compromises George won’t to end this series IMO

 

[Moncherry]

Knowing the way GRRM is he will come up with a completely new ending

He lives for surprise and I can’t see him in any way putting out the same exact story

Now he sees the backlash from everyone about the show quality. I feel this will delay his last two books even more to change things from what we’re seeing on tv

That's not how he is at all. He's stated in multiple interviews that changing things for the sake of surprise or being different because readers have figured things out or the show did it a certain way is not something he believes in. Examples:



I don't think he cares about the show's critical reception, at least not in the sense that it would influence him to change course. It's not his work, regardless of how much of his material they're using. He can still write it however he wants, and the show will still have provided him with millions of dollars.

 

[Emperoreddy]

That's not how he is at all. He's stated in multiple interviews that changing things for the sake of surprise or being different because readers have figured things out or the show did it a certain way is not something he believes in. Examples:



I don't think he cares about the show's critical reception, at least not in the sense that it would influence him to change course. It's not his work, regardless of how much of his material they're using. He can still write it however he wants, and the show will still have provided him with millions of dollars.

The people that hated it because they felt it was executed poorly will be ignored because obviously George will execute this twist differently. He has to because of how different the stories are.

The people who hated it on a fundamental level. Those who can’t accept Dany would ever do this. George will totally accept and maybe relish it. This was meant to be a red wedding level gut punch. He wants you throwing your book across the room.

So I agree. I don’t think he changes it because people didn’t like it.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

The people that hated it because they felt it was executed poorly will be ignored because obviously George will execute this twist differently. He has to because of how different the stories are.

The people who hated it on a fundamental level. Those who can’t accept Dany would ever do this. George will totally accept and maybe relish it. This was meant to be a red wedding level gut punch. He wants you throwing your book across the room.

So I agree. I don’t think he changes it because people didn’t like it.

Key phrasing: “meant to be”

 

[Emperoreddy]

Key phrasing: “meant to be”

He isn’t going to change it, though I do doubt he ever actually writes it.

 

[Moncherry]

Even as a typical book reader who complains about what the show does, I don't have any issue with Daenerys becoming the Mad Queen, from a storytelling perspective. It was always a plausible development for her character. Although I doubt it will be unfurl in circumstances as poorly as putting a surrendered King's Landing to the sword, I would assume it's more along the lines of her descending into megalomania and doing whatever it takes to win. I imagine those who have the most issue with it are the ones who championed her as one of the heroes of the story. I'm in the camp that never cared for her in that sense and was a bit annoyed with how the show put her on a pedestal.

 

[NyQuil]

I imagine those who have the most issue with it are the ones who championed her as one of the heroes of the story. I'm in the camp that never cared for her in that sense and was a bit annoyed with how the show put her on a pedestal.

I'll admit that my interest in the Daenerys chapters was low in the books.

Both her and Cersei actually seemed to have better developed and more well-rounded characters on the show - something I'll chalk up to GRRM's inability to write women particularly well or most characters aside from Tyrion and Jaime.

 

[Warden of the North]

Knowing the way GRRM is he will come up with a completely new ending

He lives for surprise and I can’t see him in any way putting out the same exact story

Now he sees the backlash from everyone about the show quality. I feel this will delay his last two books even more to change things from what we’re seeing on tv

I cant wait for the reaction to "Jon is really actually" dead

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

People really think GRRM is finishing the books ? Usually obese 70+ year olds do not live very long. He don't have time to finish because he wrote himself into a corner. He wants to write wild cards and other shit no one cares about and go to conventions.

And he knows damn well he can't finish Asoiaf in just 2 books. Like we know Myrcella and tommen are going to die. THEN WHY THE f*** DID YOU NOT HAVE DARKSTAR SUCCEED? You have 2 books left why would you just injure Myrcella. Just kill her and be done with it.He ballooned way too many PoVs.

So in 2 books he must tie up...

Dany coming to Westeros
FAegon
Stannis campaign
Jon Snow resurrection
Cersei vs Faith
Tommen and Myrcella death
Jaime,Brienne and Lady Stoneheart
Sansa and Littlefinger
Robert Arryn and Harry the jack ass
Jaqen Hghar
Samwell at the citadel
Boltons
Euron
Victarion
Dorne
The Faith
Cleganebowl
Aryas training (she JUST became an acolyte smh)
Iron Bank
Dothraki and dany
Theon and Asha
Rickon and Davos
Manderlys plotting
Barristan and Dario
Brans entire arc
Tptwp

That is just off the top of my head.

He made so many unnecessary plot threads that he knows he cannot finish it.

So what we see is what we get. Dany going mad queen..Dany getting killed.

Oh and f*** dumbass and dumbass for trying to make Cersei sympathetic and giving her a loving death scene. The Hound should have decapitated Cersei as soon as she walked by.

Drogon was way too OP also. Considering how many dragons died in the Dance there is no reason Drogon should be able to have infinite fire breathing. There has to be a reasonable cool down. He also should be severely injured considering 100+ undead were stabbing the ever loving f*** out of him in episode 3. Hell, random Kings Landing citizens stormed the dragon pit and stabbed to death a dragon. So why is Drogon impervious?

And I love how Rhaegal gets shot 3 out of 3 but in episode 5 now the scorpions do not work at all.

 

[RandV]

https://news.avclub.com/george-r-r-...msite&utm_source=avclub_copy&utm_campaign=top

George says the books are not finished and there is no secret deal.

That's rather unfortunate. I wasn't buying into any sort of conspiracy about intentional hold backs and the like, just speculating/hoping that as part of the writing process he was holding onto a finished rough draft of Winds while working out how Dream will go so if something doesn't work in the latter he can just re-write parts of the former.

If he's still just "pantsing" it though, hasn't completed Winds after all this time and hasn't even started on Dreams, then yeah very unlikely we never see the series completed. Either he's slowed down immensely due to a combination of age and other expanded commitments, or he's suffering from more horrible writing blocks like what held up Dance - likely to due with being near impossible to complete what needs to happen in Winds with one book, or some combination of the two.

And the most unfortunate is unlike what happened with Robert Jordan I believe GRRM has made it clear he doesn't want to bring in a Brandon Sanderson to finish the series for him. We'll probably get a dump of all the extra stuff he's written and discarded for the books, and that should be immense, but if you want a written finish you'll probably have to turn to fanfiction.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

He isn’t going to change it, though I do doubt he ever actually writes it.

You don’t seem to understand.

Go back and read your own “meant to be” passage. Look for the subtext of me sarcastically honing in on that phrase.

I’m really not trying to be a jerk. I’m trying to help you. You genuinely seem to struggle with reading subtext.

 

[Make]

Martin has said that WoW has been the hardest write so far because of its complexity (so many characters etc.). I've also understood that the sudden fame of the series has kind of caused him to raise the bar for his own writing. The expectations are so high that he's struggling to meet them (in his own mind at least, I assume).

I'm hopeful we'll get WoW eventually, but Dreams is a lost cause I think. Only hope for the latter is that Winds sets up the board so close to the endgame that Spring will be easier to write. But if that were the case, I guess WoW would be so monumental that we'll have to wait another 10 years for it...

edit: This was the interview I got the info from: 'I've been struggling with it': George RR Martin on The Winds of Winter