That would be a good explanation except that literally everything Maggie the Frog said came true in a twisted way.
The prophecies in the books are all true, the show just doesn't care about them.
Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV
- Thread starter kdb209
- Start date
That would be a good explanation except that literally everything Maggie the Frog said came true in a twisted way.
The prophecies in the books are all true, the show just doesn't care about them.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
Well the House is the Undying stuff doesn’t appear to be bullshit.
Jon revealing his secret appears to be the final betrayal for love.
Jon revealing his secret appears to be the final betrayal for love.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
Those prophecies were self-fulfilling. I know you don’t want to believe it, but that does make a difference.
"You will marry the king but not the prince" is not a self fulfilling prophecy, neither were the number of kids Robert would have.
I get that you would defend the choices made in the show regardless of what they were at this point, but pretending that there's no actual prophecy in the books is silly.
The Mighty Duck Man
R-E-L-A-X
Most of that prophecy was in the show and was all true, they just intentionally left out the last part.
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
I haven't watched episode 5 yet so don't know what's going on, but the prophecies aren't bull**** rather they're just misleading - specifically the Cersei one's because Maggie (?) wanted to **** with her.
Ainec
Panetta was not racist
- Jun 20, 2009
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I always thought Jaime ends up killing Cersei and his arc is tragic, always considered the villian, even for the heroic things he did.
But if does end up going back to Cersei in the books as well (though the road there wouldn't seem as "rushed" as in the show), that would actually make his character even more tragic - villain who redeemed himself just to go back to his sister and die by her side.
I never thought about it that way, not in the 20 years since I read the first book, not in the 14 years since AFFC was released.
But maybe GRRM does it that way after all - and in the book, I imagine it would make more sense.
In the end, I don't mind Jaime's ending, it's fine, and is almost more tragic - but the show could've made a better road for him to get there.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
Winds will wrap up the Others plot. Dream will be entirely about Mad Queen Dany.
If he ever writes them.
If he ever writes them.
The Mighty Duck Man
R-E-L-A-X
I'm currently starting up a reread so if he could wait till I'm finished that would be super.
The Mighty Duck Man
R-E-L-A-X
I think that's how it goes. For all the talk about redemption and breaking the wheel and whatnot, I think GRRM heads in the opposite direction. Well we already know hes doing it with Dany, but others too, it's much more his style. Tyrion had it right, Jaime always knew how bad Cersei was and loved her anyway, there's nothing at this point that would completely change that. The more I think on it, it'd be weird
Maybe he ends up killing her anyway and fulfilling that prophecy, but maybe in a way that isn't so heroic, I dunno. But I think in the end he ends up back by her side.
Book Jaime is a lot harsher on Cersei than show is though. It's certainly believable for show Jaime to do what he did - He only really broke with her last season - but the books are a lot more... definitive, on both sides of the relationship. It's not impossible but that requires a lot of patching in two books to turn that around convincingly, especially since there's the whole Lady Stoneheart thing to resolve.
Honestly the more I think about it and the more I see the struggles of the show on top of all the other plots Martin added, the more I don't see how two books fully resolve the story.
Honestly the more I think about it and the more I see the struggles of the show on top of all the other plots Martin added, the more I don't see how two books fully resolve the story.
Some stuff around his story were changed, because it made for better TV.
Book Jaime has the advantage of telling us his thoughts - noone likes Jaime before he gets his own POV.
Tyrion and Jaime Tysha scene would never have worked on TV, for example.
The Kettleblacks would take too much screen time to introduce properly, so that whole thing about Cersei screwing about sort of mellowed out with only Lancel.
I'm not saying Jaime goes back to Cersei in the books, but right now, I think there's a big chance for it - especially as GRRM basically confirmed all the main characters have their endings unchanged. Actually, the more I think about it, it makes MORE sense GRRM would do that.
But... The road there would be different and more... "Natural".
The Mighty Duck Man
R-E-L-A-X
Yeah, a big part of it for me is the assumption that he's planned the endings for at least the main characters and I don't see D&D deviating a whole lot, if at all, from those. The other is that I do think that theme of people not being able to change and whatnot will happen a lot with these endings. Not sure how he gets there but I'm sure it would be more fleshed out and gradual.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
Or that Mad Queen Dany issnt the true ending. It’s his Scouring if the Shire. His self proclaimed favorite part of Lord of the Rings.
JetsFan815
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2012
- 19,269
- 24,509
The Mad Queen Dany chapters in the books are going to be LIT as f*** and an amazing read. Her inner monologue while she does all these things would be quite something.
That's the thing people forget about the show.
A lot of the stuff we see other people do in the books seems this way or that - but from the character's POV you get their own insight.
For exmple, Cersei's chapters are amazing - but you see her fears, hopes and dreams and what motivates her paranoid mind.
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
SettlementRichie10
Registered User
- May 6, 2012
- 10,093
- 8,026
I really wish people would stop comparing whatever this season is to the Scouring just because GRRM made an offhand comment years ago. It’s such lazy, pedestrian analysis.
The Scouring, and LotR in general, function in a completely different universe than Asoiaf, thematically, morally, spiritually, and narratively. These stories are the yin and yang of high fantasy fiction, and couldn’t be more different.
The only relevant analysis we’ve ever gleaned from comparing Asoiaf to LotR is Martin’s very broad subversion of traditional Tolkienian good vs. evil conflicts. That’s it. And now people expect GRRM to fall lockstep in line with an infamous Tolkienian work of falling action all because he said he was a “fan” of the Scouring? This entire comparison has emerged simply as a show apologist spin job to find some kind of justification in the awful degradation of stakes from Others to Cersei/Dany.
Most importantly, I’m borderline convinced everyone who utilizes this spin job hasn’t even read the Scouring of the Shire. The Scouring was Tolkien’s one moment of grit in an almost biblically archetypal story of good vs evil. Even after the Hobbits destroy the ring, the war has corrupted everything, even their homes. It reflected Tolkien’s own personal experiences in WWI. Moreover, Sharkey and Saruman are shells of what they were. They were not a threat, like Cersei or Mad Queen Dany are, and that was the point. Even without the ring, two pathetic men still had hatred in their hearts, and attempted to oppress the easiest population available.
It was a perfect thematic capstone to Lord of the Rings because it reminded us that even with the ring destroyed, there will likely come another tyrant at another time. We can all start down the path of Sauron, as the pursuit of power is always corrupted. Why do you think Martin enjoyed it so much? It was an incredibly dark chapter for Tolkien.
And the key word there is CHAPTER. As in singular. The Scouring comprises roughly 8-10k words of a 450k word book. It is a small piece of falling action, not an entire spectacle finale like the back half of season eight. How is this at all similar?
Please stop trying to read the tea leaves. There is absolutely nothing to support GRRM tossing aside the Others only to move on to another lesser-stakes conflict in Cersei or MQD. Nothing. In fact, the exact opposite is supported in-book: the conflict with the Others and the pursuit of the throne will inevitably converge. There is certainly evidence to support a MQD turn, but that doesn’t mean it comes at the cost of quite literally every other plotline in the story, as has happened in the show.
We have no idea how GRRM’s books will end. We can surmise very vague plot points from this shithole season, and that’s about it.
I don't see how you can like the Dany heelturn but not LSH. They are two sides of the same coin. Nobody is purely good in Martin's universe. It's the biggest contrast between this as a work and LOTR... GRRM has always said he hated how at the end of LOTR we find out Aragorn's descendants were Good Kings (TM) and therefore saved the realm, because the king being a good person is not the same thing as the king being a good ruler.
If there is a systemic flaw in the show as adaptation as opposed to the general plotting issues many have with the later seasons, it is making the Stark children too perfect and not emphasizing often enough how utterly stupid they frequently are, like Ned.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
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I've enjoyed the Jaime as a recovering addict rather than a true redemption arc argument. Cersei is his drug, he tries to kick it, but in the end he just can't.
It's the surrounding characters motivations that confuse me.
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