Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV

[Vasilevskiy]

Me neither. Winds of Winter is possible I quess.

He said today in an interview he expects to have it before July 2020

 

[discostu]

He said today in an interview he expects to have it before July 2020

That's very surprising, as he seems to have a firm policy of never giving a potential date, as it only creates expectation and disappointment.

I'd also be surprised if he gave that info in an interview, rather than his own blog.

Do you have a link, or details of which outlet?

 

[Vasilevskiy]

That's very surprising, as he seems to have a firm policy of never giving a potential date, as it only creates expectation and disappointment.

I'd also be surprised if he gave that info in an interview, rather than his own blog.

Do you have a link, or details of which outlet?

Sorry, not an interview. His own blog.

 

[discostu]

I think all fans maintain different level of hope for the next book, but I'm not putting too much stock in a sarcastic quip.

Short of a firm promise by him and his publisher, I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think all fans maintain different level of hope for the next book, but I'm not putting too much stock in a sarcastic quip.

Short of a firm promise by him and his publisher, I'm not getting my hopes up.

Honestly, this is mind boggling. He can't finish up the book in another year after having worked on it for so long already? There must be a lot of hand-wringing over certain details. I know this is cynical, but man it feels like he is using the blow back against the show to chart a somewhat different course with the books. Like it was a testing ground to see what resonates and what doesn't.

 

[NyQuil]

Honestly, this is mind boggling. He can't finish up the book in another year after having worked on it for so long already? There must be a lot of hand-wringing over certain details. I know this is cynical, but man it feels like he is using the blow back against the show to chart a somewhat different course with the books. Like it was a testing ground to see what resonates and what doesn't.

I think he's just bored with the whole thing.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think he's just bored with the whole thing.

Possible. It's also so bloated he might truly have no idea where to take the story to a conclusion that's already been predetermined. The show has done him a disservice in some ways.

 

[Ainec]

I absolutely do not want a happy ending for Jon or Daenerys. He's just not into it anymore

 

[Trap Jesus]

I always wondered how much pressure played a role in him taking so long. I wonder if how poorly the last season has been received will help take pressure off him, as in people just expect it to be a poor conclusion.

 

[Siamese Dream]

He said we will find out what happens with Darkstar can't wait

 

[Rabid Ranger]

He said we will find out what happens with Darkstar can't wait

That will make some posters happy....

 

[Bures Elbow]

What about Mance after he infiltrated Winterfell to save fake Arya? Ramsey apparently has him prisoner

 

[RandV]

I always wondered how much pressure played a role in him taking so long. I wonder if how poorly the last season has been received will help take pressure off him, as in people just expect it to be a poor conclusion.

I'd say this has zero impact. On one hand a lot of people are complaining about the show on the internet, on the other it's like the biggest most watched TV show in history. He's been dealing with angry people on the internet since before the show started, I doubt what you're talking about really phases.

Rather I think there's 3 simple reasons here. One is his advancing age. Two is the complexity of the story especially when his writing style isn't conductive to bringing it towards a conclusion. Third, with the success of the show it's not just that he gets to bask in all the fame but with it he has an open cheque to work on basically whatever he wants to now. This is from his blog post mentioned above:

And me? I’m still here, and I’m still busy. As a producer, I’ve got five shows in development at HBO (some having nothing whatsoever to do with the world of Westeros), two at Hulu, one on the History Channel. I’m involved with a number of feature projects, some based upon my own stories and books, some on material created by others. There are these short films I am hoping to make, adaptations of classic stories by one of the most brilliant, quirky, and original writers our genre has ever produced. I’ve consulted on a video game out of Japan. And then there’s Meow Wolf…

Considering he's spent most of his life as a pretty minor author/TV show writer you can't really blame him for taking on all these opportunities available now.

 

[Psyfer]

What about Mance after he infiltrated Winterfell to save fake Arya? Ramsey apparently has him prisoner

The pink letter was probably written by Mance himself so though so I wouldn't believe any of it.

 

[Saskatoon]

I agree. I guess the overall message is one of anti-hereditary monarchy?

To a degree, but don't the houses still have hederditary "warden" status. So its not completely changed. Just have a choice of like 20 people to be King rather than 1.

Bran being king is for sure the endgame, it is logically consistent and

I think the North being independent was probably fanservice, it's not an internally consistent outcome as the books would have Dorne and the Iron Islands also secede.

The thing about Iron Islands is that don't they rely on the rest of the 7 kingdoms for practicality everything? I mean sure they can reave but if that picked up in a major way to make up for a lack of trade (say to due a blockade for seceding) they would just get crushed again. Dorne I can see being self sufficient.

I think you are right. The Hodor reveal was a Chekhov Gun the show never fired, but almost has to be one GRRM intends to fire.

I suspect the books will reveal the 3ER/Bran have puppet mastered many events to lead to this exact outcome where Bran becomes king. Like Doctor Strange’s “there was no other way” on steroids.

Fits in a bit with what we know about original Blood Raven. When killing Aenys Brynden argued that he had sacrificed his honor for the good of the realm. I could see him puppet mastering events to end up with him on the throne - not because he is necessarily because he is power hungry but because he believes he is doing it for the good of the realm. Somewhat believable but not sure if it feels right or not.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

George very much cares about Asoiaf and the world he has created. He wouldn’t be writing 400 page books about the history of the Targaryens if he wasn’t.

The story is very dense and requires a lot of delicate plotting to safely land. We saw with the show that a rushed, sloppy ending really torches the entire house of cards.

I would rather George take all the time in the world to finish these books correctly. I would prefer no ending at all to a bad ending.

Some people in this thread in particular can’t seem to wrap their heads around certain ending plot points being unsatisfactory because of their execution. Mad Queen Dany and King Bran have the potential to work. In the show, they came off as utterly contrived and stupid. In the books, if given enough time to cook, they could 100% work. It’s all about motivation, plotting, believability, etc. It has nothing at all to do with those plot points in a vacuum.

So yeah, get it right, George. If you die, so be it. I’ve been waiting for these books off and on for 18 years. This is nothing new.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

To a degree, but don't the houses still have hederditary "warden" status. So its not completely changed. Just have a choice of like 20 people to be King rather than 1.

Actually I don't believe they do. Robert named or was about to name Jaime Warden of the East in A Game of Thrones. It was pointed out it would be a great insult and whatnot but its technically not hereditary and could theoretically go to just about anyone.

 

[RandV]

Some people in this thread in particular can’t seem to wrap their heads around certain ending plot points being unsatisfactory because of their execution. Mad Queen Dany and King Bran have the potential to work. In the show, they came off as utterly contrived and stupid. In the books, if given enough time to cook, they could 100% work. It’s all about motivation, plotting, believability, etc. It has nothing at all to do with those plot points in a vacuum.

So yeah, get it right, George. If you die, so be it. I’ve been waiting for these books off and on for 18 years. This is nothing new.

Yeah it's not likely we don't already have examples of changes made on the show, and sometimes even subtle changes can make a huge difference.

I think the first one that stood out to me, though I filed it under the D&D don't really understand strategy/tactics category, was in season 2 when Uncle Edmure thinks he did a good because he hit the Lannisters hard but Robb gives him a dressing down for disobeying orders and messing up his plans. On the show? He scowls and says: 'We were going to kill the Mountain'. In the books? He was trying to draw the Lannister army into engagement (crossing over a river) so they'd be entangled with the Northern forces and unable to retreat back to Kings Landing when they learned Stannis would be attacking it. Edmure attacking them while they were vulnerable crossing the river (I think it was) did some damage but it delayed their army enough to get the message and retreat.

I don't know, maybe they thought that would be too confusing for the show audience so they simplified it to killing the Gregor Clegane? Point is, in the books this was a strategy by Robb that would win the war against the Lannisters. With how the show represented him he was just mucking around the Riverlands looking like a bit of an idiot winning battles yes but showing no plan or ability to win the war. There were still factors in play that could have swung things back around but this was a very good plan to defeat Tywin that could have easily been but just wasn't in the show.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Yeah it's not likely we don't already have examples of changes made on the show, and sometimes even subtle changes can make a huge difference.

I think the first one that stood out to me, though I filed it under the D&D don't really understand strategy/tactics category, was in season 2 when Uncle Edmure thinks he did a good because he hit the Lannisters hard but Robb gives him a dressing down for disobeying orders and messing up his plans. On the show? He scowls and says: 'We were going to kill the Mountain'. In the books? He was trying to draw the Lannister army into engagement (crossing over a river) so they'd be entangled with the Northern forces and unable to retreat back to Kings Landing when they learned Stannis would be attacking it. Edmure attacking them while they were vulnerable crossing the river (I think it was) did some damage but it delayed their army enough to get the message and retreat.

I don't know, maybe they thought that would be too confusing for the show audience so they simplified it to killing the Gregor Clegane? Point is, in the books this was a strategy by Robb that would win the war against the Lannisters. With how the show represented him he was just mucking around the Riverlands looking like a bit of an idiot winning battles yes but showing no plan or ability to win the war. There were still factors in play that could have swung things back around but this was a very good plan to defeat Tywin that could have easily been but just wasn't in the show.

Any writing team that decides to have their calvary charge head first into the literal fog of war to START a battle does not possess an iota of military knowledge or understanding. An undergrad history major could have pointed out the stupidity there.

And that was the problem with D&D: they just didn’t give a shit. They could have kept their cool fire arakh visual without throwing out the most basic conventions of medieval warfare. But they just didn’t give a shit.

HBO was begging them for more seasons. George himself was begging for more seasons. But they just didn’t care. They sprinted head first toward the ending with all the grace of a bull in a china shop. And sure enough, the story shattered around them.

The only plot point I have a major problem with is Arya ending the White Walkers with a mindnumbing “kill the mothership” strategy. People keep comparing this to Tolkien’s Scouring of the Shire, and these people neither understand Martin nor Tolkien.

I just can’t bring myself to believe that unceremonious Hollywood garbage is George’s planned ending for the Others. Everything else I’m mostly fine with given the proper execution, even King Bran.

 

[Corto]

George very much cares about Asoiaf and the world he has created. He wouldn’t be writing 400 page books about the history of the Targaryens if he wasn’t.

The story is very dense and requires a lot of delicate plotting to safely land. We saw with the show that a rushed, sloppy ending really torches the entire house of cards.

I would rather George take all the time in the world to finish these books correctly. I would prefer no ending at all to a bad ending.

Some people in this thread in particular can’t seem to wrap their heads around certain ending plot points being unsatisfactory because of their execution. Mad Queen Dany and King Bran have the potential to work. In the show, they came off as utterly contrived and stupid. In the books, if given enough time to cook, they could 100% work. It’s all about motivation, plotting, believability, etc. It has nothing at all to do with those plot points in a vacuum.

So yeah, get it right, George. If you die, so be it. I’ve been waiting for these books off and on for 18 years. This is nothing new.

I have absolutely zero issues with Dany in the show, and only very minor with Bran.
That said, both could've been done better, with 1 or 2 more episodes, and it's safe to assume it will be more fleshed out in the books.

I don't think GRRM is bored, but he's taken on a lot of projects, which doesn't mean he's neglecting ASOIAF.
People judging and accusing him all over the place... He doesn't OWE anyone anything.
I hope he finishes them by like 2026-2027, but even if he doesn't, I'm sure we'll get the books finished - even if it's a Brandon Sanderson kind of way, franchise is too big now to be ignored or the story left unfinished.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Yeah it's not likely we don't already have examples of changes made on the show, and sometimes even subtle changes can make a huge difference.

I think the first one that stood out to me, though I filed it under the D&D don't really understand strategy/tactics category, was in season 2 when Uncle Edmure thinks he did a good because he hit the Lannisters hard but Robb gives him a dressing down for disobeying orders and messing up his plans. On the show? He scowls and says: 'We were going to kill the Mountain'. In the books? He was trying to draw the Lannister army into engagement (crossing over a river) so they'd be entangled with the Northern forces and unable to retreat back to Kings Landing when they learned Stannis would be attacking it. Edmure attacking them while they were vulnerable crossing the river (I think it was) did some damage but it delayed their army enough to get the message and retreat.

I don't know, maybe they thought that would be too confusing for the show audience so they simplified it to killing the Gregor Clegane? Point is, in the books this was a strategy by Robb that would win the war against the Lannisters. With how the show represented him he was just mucking around the Riverlands looking like a bit of an idiot winning battles yes but showing no plan or ability to win the war. There were still factors in play that could have swung things back around but this was a very good plan to defeat Tywin that could have easily been but just wasn't in the show.

I could be wrong and prob need to rewatch and reread those chapters/episodes but I'm guessing that was to make Tywin saving the day/that Cersei scene more of a surprise. Not to say they do strategy well(and not to comment at all given I dont know and dont care about the art form) but in think that's what they were going for.

 

[67 others]

You should really get help. You're unreasonably angry over this, the man owes you absolutely nothing. And, more to the point, there is nothing exceptional about the glacial pace of GRRM's writing in fantasy/sci fi terms. Look at Dune. Even Wheel of Time slowed from a two books a year pace to one every three years by the end. And both of those series had their author die before finishing.

If you do not like the pacing problems or the looming threat of the story never being finished, you should probably abandon genre fiction altogether.

That's not anger bud. That is speaking matter of factly.

Certainly I was annoyed. I do get annoyed. but not angry.

The wheel of time rarely ever had more than 2 years between a book. If it went over the 2 year mark, it was by a month. GRRM's books had tremendous gaps in time. You had to go almost a decade between novels to read anything to do with Tyrion Lannister and Daeneries Targaryen and Jon Snow, and its on the sharp slide to a decade between book 5 and his next book.

George RR Martin has flat out said in an interview that Robert Jordan letting someone else finish his series was a travesty and that if he dies he will never allow others to finish his work for the fans. He furthermore said he lack of writing was because he has more fun going to fan expos to meet his adoring fans and chat lore and because he wants to enjoy his immense wealth by traveling and going to sports games. I pretty much stopped caring when the next book came out at that point because he made it clear he was not trying anymore, the quality was going down. Books 4 and 5 were pretty lackluster to bad entries in the series.

Wheel of time on the other hand had one of the greatest final books ever written because Robert Jordan took meticulous care in choosing and grooming an author in how to close it out when he knew his time had come.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Bran’s actor confirms King Bran comes from George.

 

[RandV]

Bran’s actor confirms King Bran comes from George.

I wouldn't think D&D would go with such a wacky result if it didn't come from George, just without his writing they had to wing it on the execution and it came off a bit odd.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I wouldn't think D&D would go with such a wacky result if it didn't come from George, just without his writing they had to wing it on the execution and it came off a bit odd.

It felt like something they learned late and because they never did the leg work with Bran it felt out of left field.

His Hodor mind rape powers never paid off, but I have to imagine they will in the books and play a role in why he becomes king.

I still think he is the source for the prince who was promised prophecy and seeded it into the past.