Post-Game Talk: #77 | FLYERS 2 at Stars 3 (OT)| Tue., Mar. 27, 2018, 8:30 pm ET

[Beef Invictus]

I don’t consider a PP unit with Patrick, TK, and Provorov to be punting.

Why? Provorov isn't really a PP player and the unit is nothing special beyond that. TK and Patrick can't do it alone.

There's a drastic difference in quality between PP1 and PP2. Do you think it is good coaching to commonly give the clearly inferior PP2 more time on a PP?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Gostisbehere played more than AMac last night.

Right up until Ghost was benched in favor of MacDonald. Then Mac near tripled Ghost's ice time.

 

[Striiker]

Gostisbehere played more than AMac last night.

We're not talking about the full game and that has nothing at all to do with the current discussion.

Stay on topic.

 

[Striiker]

Where did I say it was *all* Ghost's fault? Nowhere. Other players made mistakes, too. Are you saying none of it is Ghost's fault?
It's funny how we didn't hear much about Ghost making a terrible decision as a defenseman to make the low-percentage play of chasing the puck almost to Dallas' crease and being horribly out of position up the ice as a result.
It was a poor, high-risk decision and it opened up the middle of the ice and helped trigger the odd-man break. Was a huge factor in the losing play.

I am.

He made no mistake there. That was completely normal and acceptable OT play. Voracek is the one who f***ed up.

 

[JXC]

Why don't you try answering the very simple question I asked instead?

Because it’s a bullshit question

 

[Starat327]

How are they basically overtime? Be specific.


Do they play at 3v3?

Also, can someone show me how much OT time Jori Lehters has gotten this year. Since it's just like the last 5 minutes, I imagine it should be pretty high.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

We're not talking about the full game and that has nothing at all to do with the current discussion.

Stay on topic.

right. I am anyway are more concerned about game management in a tie game or in a one goal game with 5 minutes left.
I really dont care about SOG in the 3rd period.
it is sitting back and playing it safe with regulation winding down. Hakstol is playing it like OT and SO is some sort of advantage to this team. it is not. far from it.
He is showing no desperation at all in those situations. I have said it already. Go down fighting if you are going to go down. instead of going down with one arm tied behind your back.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because it’s a bull**** question

View attachment 108327

Why? Because you know you'd be caught in your nonsense?


The question is perfectly valid. Your intentions here are suspect. The fact that you can't answer basic questions and prefer to just keep mindlessly disagreeing makes it clear what you want here. It isn't honest discussion or debate, it's just bickering.

 

[The Rage Kage]

Just a thought for the usual suspects. If all the top players are completely gassed with 5 minutes left in the third and unable to play, does that not shine a negative light on Hakstols personnel decisions? Clearly he is over using them the rest of the game if they are too tired to play at the most important times.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It isn't a strawman, it's a necessary implication of your reasoning. You presented +/- alone without any further context to fight the claim that Ghost is effective defensively. In order for you to be consistent with yourself, you must believe that Niskanen is better than Carlson.

You obviously don't agree with that. So you aren't logically consistent with yourself. Why, it's almost like you're far more concerned with slagging Ghost to stir the pot and be a contrarian rather than have any sort of discussion in good faith.

I didn't see JXC say +/- is the sole judge of a player anywhere.
I also don't think it's a completely meaningless stat. There's a reason Couturier has led the Flyers by a pretty wide margin in +/- the last two seasons.
Also, people love Corsi, and it's nothing but a +/- stat. Granted, it gives a larger sample size, but it also has tons of flaws, such as where the shots are coming from, how the player is deployed, etc. I think both can be useful with context; neither is anywhere near the be-all, end-all of player evaluation.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I didn't see JXC say +/- is the sole judge of a player anywhere.
I also don't think it's a completely meaningless stat. There's a reason Couturier has led the Flyers by a pretty wide margin in +/- the last two seasons.
Also, people love Corsi, and it's nothing but a +/- stat. Granted, it gives a larger sample size, but it also has tons of flaws, such as where the shots are coming from, how the player is deployed, etc. I think both can be useful with context; neither is anywhere near the be-all, end-all of player evaluation.

Uh, he fought a claim using solely +/- and nothing else at all, providing no further context. He used +/- alone to make a claim about a player's defensive ability.

It's abundantly clear what he was doing. It's apparent on its face. He doesn't need to write disclaimer to divine the intent. It's obvious he thought the stat spoke for itself, as he felt no need to add more.

 

[Striiker]

He made a post judging Ghost and it was the only stat he used.

 

[The Rage Kage]

What a shitshow.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No, not as much as Ghost.

MORE than Ghost.

Mac is a part of more odd man rushes. Either as the one who causes them or the one who is defending against them, in which case he always plays it wrong and decides to lay down and stop neither the shot nor pass.

Ghost is easily more skilled, more intelligent, and more safe. You're trying so desperately to defend Hak, but failing so miserably. There's no excuse for using Amac the away he does.

Well, I simply disagree with you. I do not think AMac gets caught up ice more often than Ghost, or has more turnovers leading to breakaways than Ghost this season. I think you're forgetting just how many times Ghost has been stripped while trying to make a move, or gets caught out of position trying to chase a puck, leading directly to a breakaway goal for the other team.

This is not meant to beat on Ghost; he's one of my favorites and I like how he plays. But I still think people tend to see the bad things of the players they hate while filtering out the good things, while filtering out the bad things of the players they like while seeing the good.

I mean, did you even see AMac's good play defending the 2-on-1 on Laughton's turnover last night? Can you admit it was a good play that probably saved a goal.

As for AMac defending 2-on-1s, I think far more often if you're defending a 2-on-1 it's because of someone else's turnover. If you cause a turnover leading to a 2-on-1, it's pretty unlikely you are the one man back trying to break it up.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

He made a post judging Ghost and it was the only stat he used.

He was merely saying Ghost's +/- in March has been atrocious, which is a fact.
He wasn't implying it was the only possible way to rate Ghost as an overall player in all situations.

 

[Adtar02]

Again, this isn’t Xbox and it’s not Mighty Ducks.

Your favorite players cannot be out there for every critical moment in every critical game.

Just answer the question. No one expects them all the time. But this blatant refusal to acknowledge the truth is ridiculous. I mean it was a simple question. and the answer points to his and everyone elses point. Does the team need to improve its depth sure. but the coach is usage mistakes out the A$$

 

[FlyersMania2]

Well, I simply disagree with you. I do not think AMac gets caught up ice more often than Ghost, or has more turnovers leading to breakaways than Ghost this season. I think you're forgetting just how many times Ghost has been stripped while trying to make a move, or gets caught out of position trying to chase a puck, leading directly to a breakaway goal for the other team.

This is not meant to beat on Ghost; he's one of my favorites and I like how he plays. But I still think people tend to see the bad things of the players they hate while filtering out the good things, while filtering out the bad things of the players they like while seeing the good.

I mean, did you even see AMac's good play defending the 2-on-1 on Laughton's turnover last night? Can you admit it was a good play that probably saved a goal.

As for AMac defending 2-on-1s, I think far more often if you're defending a 2-on-1 it's because of someone else's turnover. If you cause a turnover leading to a 2-on-1, it's pretty unlikely you are the one man back trying to break it up.

.....

AMac is literally worse than Ghost in all situations across the board. He was the best defenseman (or second best) on the worst defensive team in the NHL when we got him. He is one of our worst defenseman. His permanent roster spot and praise by our coach as a legitimate "3 or 4" in the NHL is comedy for talented forwards across the league. He's fine as a 2M per year number 6 if we HAD to have him. He is not your go-to guy in big situations and if he is, you have no one better or an amateur coach. So which is it?

 

[deadhead]

Just a thought for the usual suspects. If all the top players are completely gassed with 5 minutes left in the third and unable to play, does that not shine a negative light on Hakstols personnel decisions? Clearly he is over using them the rest of the game if they are too tired to play at the most important times.

And if you save them and the scrubs give up the game winning goal, I have to hear how Hakstol screwed up by not playing his top players in the third period with the game on the line.

When you see how few minutes the scrubs are playing lately, Hakstol is running out of warm bodies.

There just aren't extra minutes to find for the top players. What we need are more "top players."

That's why some teams made trade deadline deals - but I'm happy Hextall didn't, because Mrazek was our only hope, Obi Wan.
Unfortunately, he seems to be a saboteur for the Empire.

 

[Striiker]

Well, I simply disagree with you. I do not think AMac gets caught up ice more often than Ghost, or has more turnovers leading to breakaways than Ghost this season. I think you're forgetting just how many times Ghost has been stripped while trying to make a move, or gets caught out of position trying to chase a puck, leading directly to a breakaway goal for the other team.

This is not meant to beat on Ghost; he's one of my favorites and I like how he plays. But I still think people tend to see the bad things of the players they hate while filtering out the good things, while filtering out the bad things of the players they like while seeing the good.

I mean, did you even see AMac's good play defending the 2-on-1 on Laughton's turnover last night? Can you admit it was a good play that probably saved a goal.

As for AMac defending 2-on-1s, I think far more often if you're defending a 2-on-1 it's because of someone else's turnover. If you cause a turnover leading to a 2-on-1, it's pretty unlikely you are the one man back trying to break it up.

Then you're one of maybe 3 people who believe that.

Ghost is a far safer defensemen than MacDonald, and it's really not even close at all. MacDonald f***s up so insanely often and never makes up for it either. If anything, he does it so often that people ignore it more since it's become expected. A matter of "when", not "if".

Sure, Ghosts makes mistakes... just like literally every player in every sport... ever. His mistakes are always exaggerated though, simply because he's an offensive defensemen, which means a stereotype is attached. He's easily been our best defensemen this year and if anyone should be double shifted at the end of games, it's him.

He was merely saying Ghost's +/- in March has been atrocious, which is a fact.
He wasn't implying it was the only possible way to rate Ghost as an overall player in all situations.

It was the only stat he used and the fact that he used it at all is a problem, since it proves exactly nothing. It's a useless stat.

 

[deadhead]

Neither MacDonald or Ghost are safe. And Ghost is already playing 20+ minutes a night, which is a lot with his frame.
In fact, right now there isn't a defenseman on this team I'd trust in the D-zone in the last five minutes.
Provorov has been making too many errant clearing passes this year, and none of the rest are shutdown defensemen.

People just don't want to accept reality, this team has some good players, but as a whole it's mediocre, with bottom five goaltending.
The teams chasing us are actually worse, they just have hot goaltenders (all posting S% > .930 in March).
So quibble all you want, no coach is going to turn this sow's ear into a silk purse.

 

[FlyersMania2]

HAKSTOL HAS NO CHOICE.

We have a defensive talent drought and MUST decide between Manning and MacDonald - no other serviceable defenseman in the system.

Jori and Read only options at forward too!

 

[Beef Invictus]

He was merely saying Ghost's +/- in March has been atrocious, which is a fact.
He wasn't implying it was the only possible way to rate Ghost as an overall player in all situations.

He responded to the assertion that Ghost is good defensively. His rebuttal was +/- and nothing else at all.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Neither MacDonald or Ghost are safe. And Ghost is already playing 20+ minutes a night, which is a lot with his frame.
In fact, right now there isn't a defenseman on this team I'd trust in the D-zone in the last five minutes.
Provorov has been making too many errant clearing passes this year, and none of the rest are shutdown defensemen.

People just don't want to accept reality, this team has some good players, but as a whole it's mediocre, with bottom five goaltending.
The teams chasing us are actually worse, they just have hot goaltenders (all posting S% > .930 in March).
So quibble all you want, no coach is going to turn this sow's ear into a silk purse.

Oh, you're still here. You must have missed my questions.


If a coach cannot keep his team conditioned, do you consider that to be good coaching or bad coaching?

 

[The Rage Kage]

He was merely saying Ghost's +/- in March has been atrocious, which is a fact.
He wasn't implying it was the only possible way to rate Ghost as an overall player in all situations.

He wasnt saying that at all.

First Beef said this:

Considering Ghost is superior defensively to the players he's being benched for, no, it does not increase the odds you lose.

JXC responded with this:

Errrr, here’s Gostisbehere in March:

View attachment 108309

He responded to someone saying that Ghost is the superior defensive player by saying "Errrr" (read as "You're wrong" or "No") and highlighted his poor +/-. He was using +/- as his reasoning that Ghost isn't better defensively. He may not have outright said it, but the implication is pretty clear.

 

[Starat327]

Oh, you're still here. You must have missed my questions.


If a coach cannot keep his team conditioned, do you consider that to be good coaching or bad coaching?

"The 2012 Flyers, under Lavi, lost YYY +15 man games due to injury. the 2017 flyers under Hakstol have only lost YYY. Clearly, the team is healthier and better conditioned."