Post-Game Talk: #77 | FLYERS 2 at Stars 3 (OT)| Tue., Mar. 27, 2018, 8:30 pm ET

[Starat327]

A lot of smart people have been saying, for months, that this team has too many passengers.

This isn’t XBox and it’s not Mighty Ducks - your favorite players cannot play the whole game.

No one is asking for the best players to play the whole game. We're not unreasonable.

We're simply asking for our worst players to not play at the most important times.

I'm sure Ghost could have pulled it together for a few more minutes in that last 5 (he played less than his season average last night), and I'm sure Giroux wouldnt have minded playing a few more minutes, since he was 4 seconds off of his season average.

 

[FlyersMania2]

A lot of smart people have been saying, for months, that this team has too many passengers.

This isn’t XBox and it’s not Mighty Ducks - your favorite players cannot play the whole game.

Who suggested that? You're picking and choosing the conclusions you wish to draw for argument's sake. You don't bench Ghost for the final 5 minutes while AMAC plays 3:12 and in an offensive zone draw late in a tie game, you don't put out your lowest producing center. Both of those things do not increase your odds of winning - this is just common sense. If you wish to debate common sense, you have a much larger problem unrelated to hockey

 

[Striiker]

I think Hakstol is more concerned with Gostisbehere turning the puck over or getting caught up ice with no one behind him than his defensive play, per se. He just doesn't want to give up a quick breakaway-type opportunity that has a high percentage of turning into a goal when he is 5 minutes from guaranteeing a point and then turning his higher-risk players loose 3-on-3.

Last night is actually a good example, Ghost got caught chasing the puck into the offensive zone between the faceoff dots, the goalie pokes it to his defenseman, and the Stars' defenseman takes advantage of the Flyers' defenseman (Ghost) getting caught way up ice by threading a long pass all the way up to the middle and giving the Stars a game-winning 2-on-0.

Luckily, the Flyers' still get a point because it was OT, and I'm sure Ghost was playing it even riskier than usual because of 3-on-3, but the fact remains he *does* make high risk plays as a defenseman, that's his style, and he does sometimes get caught, leading to breakaways. It's happened plenty of times throughout his career.

So he double shifts Amac?

Smart.

Even you don’t believe the bull**** excuses you’re making. Just stop.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

What can possibly be more hypothetical than “they would have won with Ghost!!!1!”?

This entire discussion is hypothetical.

sure, there are no guarantees with anything.
But. here is the thing with me and with many around here. Hakstol has been willing to settle for the tie, errr the loser points with 5 minutes left. He keeps his most dynamic offensive defensieman on the bench with minutes left in a tie game or with a one goal lead. How many times have the Flyers surrendered the tying or go ahead goal. They lead the league with 14 OT/SO losses. Points have been left on the table because we have a coach who has no balls and refuses to go for the win in a tie game late.
On the rare occasion when he has put the attack on in the 3rd period the team has shown good things, Remember the Detroit game? down 2 goals, and the Flyers attack and press down 2 and they tie the game.
sitting back and playing it conservative in the 3rd has not worked.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I think Hakstol is more concerned with Gostisbehere turning the puck over or getting caught up ice with no one behind him than his defensive play, per se. He just doesn't want to give up a quick breakaway-type opportunity that has a high percentage of turning into a goal when he is 5 minutes from guaranteeing a point and then turning his higher-risk players loose 3-on-3.

Last night is actually a good example, Ghost got caught chasing the puck into the offensive zone between the faceoff dots, the goalie pokes it to his defenseman, and the Stars' defenseman takes advantage of the Flyers' defenseman (Ghost) getting caught way up ice by threading a long pass all the way up to the middle and giving the Stars a game-winning 2-on-0.

Luckily, the Flyers' still get a point because it was OT, and I'm sure Ghost was playing it even riskier than usual because of 3-on-3, but the fact remains he *does* make high risk plays as a defenseman, that's his style, and he does sometimes get caught, leading to breakaways. It's happened plenty of times throughout his career.

Ah, yes. That was totally Ghost's fault. Definitely not the players deciding to go off for a line change or the terrible decision by Voracek to make that pass in the first place.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Errrr, here’s Gostisbehere in March:

View attachment 108309

You just seriously presented +/- as a reliable defensive measure

I guess Matt Niskanen is better than John Carlson! And PK Subban!


I guess MacDonald has been better than Provorov!

 

[Starat327]

So he double shifts Amac?

Smart.

You don’t even believe the hulkahit excuses you’re making. Just stop.

"I think Hakstol is concerned about this very specific situation. Oh look, it just happens to be what happened last night to cause the loss. Genius!"

 

[JXC]

High risk / High reward players need to be accompanied by players who can clean up the failed gambles. The Flyers just don't have enough of those guys.

I have no problem with 53 going for it in OT; the game was lost because 93 felt he should make a line change with one of his players down and another in the attacking zone. Stupid. And I bet he lollygagged to the bench too.

 

[JXC]

You just seriously presented +/- as a reliable defensive measure

I guess Matt Niskanen is better than John Carlson! And PK Subban!


I guess MacDonald has been better than Provorov!

YOU: Strawman are for losers!!!!!!1!

YOU, ten minutes later: I guess Matt Niskanen is better than John Carlson!!!!!1!

 

[Striiker]

High risk / High reward players need to be accompanied by players who can clean up the failed gambles. The Flyers just don't have enough of those guys.

I have no problem with 53 going for it in OT; the game was lost because 93 felt he should make a line change with one of his players down and another in the attacking zone. Stupid. And I bet he lollygagged to the bench too.

That doesn’t excuse or explain why Hextall keeps benching the high risk, high reward guys to double shift the high risk, no reward guys?

 

[FlyersMania2]

High risk / High reward players need to be accompanied by players who can clean up the failed gambles. The Flyers just don't have enough of those guys.

I have no problem with 53 going for it in OT; the game was lost because 93 felt he should make a line change with one of his players down and another in the attacking zone. Stupid. And I bet he lollygagged to the bench too.

Are you suggesting Jori Lehtera and Andrew MacDonald are "clean up" failed gambles players? AMac on his best day is still defensively worse than Ghost by a long shot. Anyone with a pulse is better in any measure than Jori - literally anyone.

 

[Striiker]

YOU: Strawman are for losers!!!!!!1!

YOU, ten minutes later: I guess Matt Niskanen is better than John Carlson!!!!!1!

That’s not changing your argument.

You’re judging Ghost based off a horrible stat. So Beef showed why that stat is so flawed.

 

[JXC]

Are you suggesting Jori Lehtera and Andrew MacDonald are "clean up" failed gambles players?

No, I am making the opposite point, that high risk players need to be on the ice with players better than Lehtera and MacDonald.

 

[FlyersMania2]

No, I am making the opposite point, that high risk players need to be on the ice with players better than Lehtera and MacDonald.

So why did you chime in to oppose everyone who thinks it was dumb that Ghost was benched in the final 5 and Jori got to take offensive zone draws? You're here for controversy?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I am not talking about the OT fiasco JXC. I am talking about Hakstol's game management in the final minutes of a tie hockey game.
It just doesnt work in todays game. The game has changed. teams win with attacking and skating. Not sitting back and playing for the loser point.
almost 1/3 of the Flyers games have gone OT. I dont know what the number is the prior 2 seasons, but it would not shock me if it was close to that in the prior 2 seasons under Hakstol,

 

[Flyerfan4life]

If we miss and Haktard is back, I wont be watching Flyers games next season. I wont pick a new team, ill just take a hiatus until hes gone. My sister did it when Vick was the Eagles QB (big dog lover).

that also is a option i might do..

just step away from NHL for abit until real change occurs in how Philly runs its team

 

[JXC]

No one is asking for the best players to play the whole game. We're not unreasonable.

I think that’s not true at all, I think there are plenty of people here who think Giroux and Konecny and Couts and Patrick should be playing 90 seconds of every PP and 90 seconds of every PK and double shifting in the 2nd and 3rd periods and taking every offensive and defensive zone draw.

 

[Starat327]

I think that’s not true at all, I think there are plenty of people here who think Giroux and Konecny and Couts and Patrick should be playing 90 seconds of every PP and 90 seconds of every PK and double shifting in the 2nd and 3rd periods and taking every offensive and defensive zone draw.

Painting everyone with the same brush as outliers is pretty cool, I guess.

 

[JXC]

I am not talking about the OT fiasco JXC. I am talking about Hakstol's game management in the final minutes of a tie hockey game.
It just doesnt work in todays game. The game has changed. teams win with attacking and skating. Not sitting back and playing for the loser point.

The Flyers outshot the Stars 14-6 in the 3rd last night.

The Flyers outshot the Pens 13-8 in the 3rd on Sunday.

The Flyers outshot the Red Wings 16-4 in the 3rd last week.

THEY DONT HAVE ENOUGH PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS TO WIN THESE CLOSE GAMES

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I think that’s not true at all, I think there are plenty of people here who think Giroux and Konecny and Couts and Patrick should be playing 90 seconds of every PP and 90 seconds of every PK and double shifting in the 2nd and 3rd periods and taking every offensive and defensive zone draw.

I wonder how this teams top special teams units matches up with other teams around the league top units in usage.

 

[Beef Invictus]

YOU: Strawman are for losers!!!!!!1!

YOU, ten minutes later: I guess Matt Niskanen is better than John Carlson!!!!!1!

It isn't a strawman, it's a necessary implication of your reasoning. You presented +/- alone without any further context to fight the claim that Ghost is effective defensively. In order for you to be consistent with yourself, you must believe that Niskanen is better than Carlson.

You obviously don't agree with that. So you aren't logically consistent with yourself. Why, it's almost like you're far more concerned with slagging Ghost to stir the pot and be a contrarian rather than have any sort of discussion in good faith.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Flyers outshot the Stars 14-6 in the 3rd last night.

The Flyers outshot the Pens 13-8 in the 3rd on Sunday.

The Flyers outshot the Red Wings 16-4 in the 3rd last week.

THEY DONT HAVE ENOUGH PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS TO WIN THESE CLOSE GAMES

Do you think that benching the players who produce high quality chances rather than spamming perimeter shots the second they touch the puck is detrimental?

 

[Starat327]

The Flyers outshot the Stars 14-6 in the 3rd last night.

The Flyers outshot the Pens 13-8 in the 3rd on Sunday.

The Flyers outshot the Red Wings 16-4 in the 3rd last week.

THEY DONT HAVE ENOUGH PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS TO WIN THESE CLOSE GAMES

Even if we did, we probably wouldnt play them anyway, so im not sure what youre up in arms about.

 

[FlyersMania2]

It isn't a strawman, it's a necessary implication of your reasoning. You presented +/- alone without any further context to fight the claim that Ghost is effective defensively. In order for you to be consistent with yourself, you must believe that Niskanen is better than Carlson.

You obviously don't agree with that. So you aren't logically consistent with yourself. Why, it's almost like you're far more concerned with slagging Ghost to stir the pot and be a contrarian rather than have any sort of discussion in good faith.

Yeah - just arguing for argument's sake. Nothing to see here

 

[Starat327]

Do you think that benching the players who produce high quality chances rather than spamming perimeter shots the second they touch the puck is detrimental?

Watch out for those Gudas-bombs from the point!