4 teams are figthing for the 1st overall:

[4:20]

On that I certainly think we can agree, but blame the system that makes it a viable strategy, not the franchise for exploiting it. People have a problem with the way Jacques Lemaire preaches the trap, and I have a problem with that criticism for the same reason. He's merely exploiting the system; change that very system if it's a problem. If the league has a problem with tanking, perhaps they should rethink the draft lottery.

For what it's worth, it appears from hints in the papers that Mario Lemieux, wearing his owner's hat, is not altogether happy about his team's recent record.

I think I agree with this point of view. I had not realised that the caps were not playing their best players - but after reading this thread, it seems like a really good decision for the club. If I was a caps fan I would completely approve of McPhee's strategy.

If it helps the young guys in the AHL make the post season and get more playoff experience, AND lets the Caps give some of their lesser-known prospects a look at the NHL, AND helps them improve their draft position in a year which is already a write-off, before a big draft at the beginning of their rebuilding program... and the only downside is ticking off the NHL, and the teams that they are competing against... then it seems like a good plan to me!

So based on this logic, I hope the Caps win the lottery. I have to admire doing whatever it takes for the longterm well being of the franchise.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

I dont know what you're complaining about, the Blue Jackets drafted pretty well with their first pick in each draft so far

I'm not complaining with how Columbus has drafted BUT they've come out of the last two lotteries with the worst position they could -- moving back a spot -- on top of losing the coin flip to Minnesota in 2000. They've done well with their picks, no doubt, but the lottery has screwed them all three times they were in the top 5.
Sure they picked Nash in 02, but they had to trade up to get him. In 03 they got Z, but three other teams passed on him to pick three damn good-looking players, it isn't as if the Hockey Gods have come down and gifted great players to just Columbus.
As a CBJ fan, I'll be ecstatic with a top three pick.
If it isn't Columbus, I'm pulling for Pitt. I don't want him in the West and I just like Pitt better than the Caps.

 

[SwOOsh*]

Dear Lord...Ok where do i start.

First of all, if you think Maffy was the best player then that is the wrong premise to start on.
That title goes to at least four opther guys, with another six who played just as well as Maffy.
Second of all, they didn't send him down because of money. That is a misconception based on a common ignorance. Maffy more likely than not would NOT have made his bonus money. His stats were well off what they needed to be in order for the clause to kick in.
Chiodo was sent down to bring up Caron, who also played well for them at times. Chido was sent down for the AHL teams playoff run and to be the go to guy in said run. They did not want to have him split time with Aubin. And let me ask you this. When Aubin was hurt, they brought up Martin Brochu for a couple of games. If they were indeed tanking as you accuse, wouldn't they have started him over Caron?

Next, Hussey was brought up as AN EMERGENCY injury REPLACEMENT. Morozov was hurt. When Morozov came back, since Hussey was on a call up only as an emergency, and the Pens had used up thier 4 AHL transactions, by NHL rules he HAD to be sent down. HIM, and only him. He played very well in his time here, but when Alex came back, Hussey HAD to be sent down according to the RULES of the NHL.
So in essence, both of your theories, or examples as to the Penguins obviously tanking it have been shot out of the water. Are there any more reasons besides these two?
Because those two arent accurate what so ever. I wouldn't expect you to know the reasons behind the moves seeing as you aren't a Pens fan. That is why i pointed out the error in your argument in order to edjucate you on the reasons behind both moves. Neither of these two were done by management to throw the season. There were valid reasons and rules behind the moves.
Maffy's play had slipped big time and they wanted to send him back to juniors because they felt it was best for his development. NOT...I repeat, NOT to save money on his bonuses which he wouldnt have reached anyways. And NOT to save money on the remaining NHL portion of his contract, because he was payed his full season's salary anyways.
Hussey HAD to be returned to the AHL because that is the rules of the NHL. They couldnt have sent anybody else in his place.
Now that your reasons have been factually desputed do you still feel the Pens have tanked the season and HONESTLY NOT iced the best possible team from what they had in thier orginization?
If you DO, I would REALLY like to hear the reasons as to why.


That is pure speculation. We have played poorly all year and due to the hard work and improvement, AND more importantly (for the sake of disproving your argument) due to managements UPGRADING of the team (trading Berehowsky for Jackman, picking up Wilson and Sim and trading Holzinger for Pirijata), we have IMPROVED our team from the start of the season.
Yes, IMPROVED. There is no backfiring to speak of. The goal was not to make the playoffs, but to grow and improve as a team. That is what rebuilding is all about. And in that regard, our team has done well this season.

If they were indeed tanking, then management would have stuck with the team that lost 18 straight games now wouldn't it. They would have been satisfied with the team that was in last plcft of the year now wouldn't they.
They would NOT have made an effort to make the team any better, to help the roster, or to upgrade any weaknesses with servicable vets. They would have kepth the same guys who floated through much of the season.

I am sorry, but to suggest that they tanked the season, or are tanking now is absurd. To suggest that something backfired, when the moves they made were an obvious upgrade, is even more absurd.

Yes even the Yeats starting thing to be seems dishonest and I now understand why Hussey was sent down. However, there is no way that I'm going to believe that MAF was sent down other then for financial reasons. Many many many hockey anaylyst have said that he was DEFINETLY sent down for that reason. Thanks for clarifying the other misconceptions but personally I won't agree with the MAF situation.

 

[tom_servo]

Yes even the Yeats starting thing to be seems dishonest and I now understand why Hussey was sent down. However, there is no way that I'm going to believe that MAF was sent down other then for financial reasons. Many many many hockey anaylyst have said that he was DEFINETLY sent down for that reason. Thanks for clarifying the other misconceptions but personally I won't agree with the MAF situation.

Eh. The reasons for MAF's demotion were twofold. Financial and developmental. But despite what the "experts" say, Fleury was on a statistical pace to forgo his bonuses, anyway. God knows what his stats (and confidence) would've been like following the Streak.

 

[Gumby]

In his prime I have no question that Bondra was a franchise player.

Didn't he have the second most goals in the league(after Jagr) in a 5 or 6 year span before Jagr was acquired by Washington?

We just have a different definition of a franchise guy. To me a franchise player is a 1st/2nd ballot HOFer and a perennial all star. Bondra was a great complimentary player, in the mold of Brett Hull, but I don't consider a sniper (no matter how great) something to build a total franchise around.....ala Lemiuex, Jagr, Forsberg (if he ever stayed healthy), and to a lesser degree guys like Yzerman, Modano, and Sakic....notice I listed all O, well I think to ressurect a team from the depths that Wash and Pitt have sunk to thats what's needed....much like the ATL situation now. Besides, with Wash you could put Bourque in his prime back there and it's not exactly gonna frenzy an already lukewarm fan base.

 

[Gumby]

Agreed.

What I find ironic is the decline of Washington SINCE the Jagr deal actually. They used to be known as one of the very best defensive teams in the league. A team you hated playing against with tough, hard nosed two way players.

Whether they get AO or not, they are going to have a bright draft regardless. 3 first round picks to add to an already strong stable of prospects makes for a solid future.

I think the anger stems from seeing Yeats get 2 starts in a row more than anything. That is what is so shameless as there is no other reason to give him those starts over Kolzig, than trying to lose.
Other fans see this, and see thier teams still trying to win, despite the season being basically over, and they feel cheated. The teams certainly should try to the very end and let the chips fall where they may.
The Caps just do not seem to be doing so and thus are being percieved by fans as not playing fairly.
Right or wrong, that seems to be where the anger stems from.
The other teams in the running could have easily done the same thing, yet they did not do so.

I agree, starting Yeats 2 in a row with a workhorse like Olie is cheap. I empathize but what can I say, the Caps have an atrocious defense (I really think theres AHL teams out there right now with better ones) and considering they don't have anymore guys to trade away for rebuilding (save maybe Olie) they HAVE to get the best result they possibly can outta this draft, which if not done correctly I really think will set back the rebuilding process by at least 3-4 years. Hell, if they don't wind up with the 1st pick McPhee will probably trade down for Barker, which will kill me.

I know it looks bad but do you really think they woulda won those games if Olie played?

Actually, if they were really goin into full tank mode they shoulda played Olie against TB and put in Yeats against PIT tommorrow.

 

[EroCaps]

why not let Yeats finish the season? It's not like he'll ever have the opportunity again.

 

[SwOOsh*]

why not let Yeats finish the season? It's not like he'll ever have the opportunity again.

Like I said in another thread they played Yeats against Tampa as they want Kolzig to play against the Pens at home, in front of the hometown crowd. I really want to finish last and have the better show at Ovechkin but I would feel ripped off if I payed to see the Caps play the Pens and Rangers at home and they played Yeats instead of a rested Kolzig who really is the only remaining "star" on the team.

I don't even think Kolzig really gives us that much better of a shot at winning anymore with this team, its truelly that pathetic.

 

[EroCaps]

Like I said in another thread they played Yeats against Tampa as they want Kolzig to play against the Pens at home, in front of the hometown crowd. I really want to finish last and have the better show at Ovechkin but I would feel ripped off if I payed to see the Caps play the Pens and Rangers at home and they played Yeats instead of a rested Kolzig who really is the only remaining "star" on the team.

I don't even think Kolzig really gives us that much better of a shot at winning anymore with this team, its truelly that pathetic.

Source? Link? I never heard that reasoning. In fact, Hanlon mentioned playing Olie only in games with playoff implications which was debunked obviously on Saturday.

 

[SwOOsh*]

That is just my opinion. I think that the Caps management atleast would want the hometown crowd to see Olie play rather then an ECHL goalie (plus probably will bring in a few more fans to come watch :p )

 

[EroCaps]

That is just my opinion. I think that the Caps management atleast would want the hometown crowd to see Olie play rather then an ECHL goalie (plus probably will bring in a few more fans to come watch :p )

A few, as in three or four. I hope you're wrong. Yeats always gives us a chance to lose. :p

 

[BrokenStick]

You know, after reading all the arguments back and forth I can really only come to one conclusion here: it all goes back to the early-to-mid-90's.

Due to the Pens and Caps meeting in the playoffs nearly every year, this rivalry has continued, and Pens fans hate the Caps and Caps fans hate the Pens.

We argue and fight and point out that the other team is doing something horrible or has done something horrible in the past and how our team is the righteous one, but when it all comes down to it, the players on the ice and the lottery will sort everything out.

Yes, I know what I just said is obvious, but my point is that there really isn't a point to our arguments.

Of course, I'm a Pens fan, so I know for a fact that the Pens deserve Ovechkin more.

 

[Jacob]

I don't hate the Caps. As others have said, it's a pretty one-sided rivalry.

It's hard to hate them when the team I root for continuously beats them in the playoffs.

 

[SwOOsh*]

I don't "hate" anything really. Really I don't mind the Penguins, and would like to see them come out with either Ovechkin or Malkin (but I would rather have the Capitals get Ovechkin :p ). The only person I disliked from the Pens organization was Mario Lemieux (too arrogant for my liking), and well Jaromir Jagr (which I hated that trade from day one)

 

[EroCaps]

I don't hate the Caps. As others have said, it's a pretty one-sided rivalry.

It's hard to hate them when the team I root for continuously beats them in the playoffs.

I don't hate the Pens, I rather like them actually.

As a kid, watching Lemieux and Jagr toy with my team every postseason fostered something of a mild rage , but those days are past. As a fan of the game, I like what Patrick is doing.

 

[Chimaera]

I don't hate the Pens, I rather like them actually.

As a kid, watching Lemieux and Jagr toy with my team every postseason fostered something of a mild rage , but those days are past. As a fan of the game, I like what Patrick is doing.

You're alone on that one.


I hate the Penguins. I hate Lemieux (though acknowledge his talent) always thought Jagr was a Penguin and whiner.

And wish/hope the team collapses and Mario ends up broke.

Sorry. Just do. One of those things.

And you can say that it's a one sided rivalry all you want, but back in the days of being in the same division, it was an important factor to both teams.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

You're alone on that one.


I hate the Penguins. I hate Lemieux (though acknowledge his talent) always thought Jagr was a Penguin and whiner.

And wish/hope the team collapses and Mario ends up broke.

Sorry. Just do. One of those things.

And you can say that it's a one sided rivalry all you want, but back in the days of being in the same division, it was an important factor to both teams.

don't worry, i still hate the caps.

 

[stardog]

Yes even the Yeats starting thing to be seems dishonest and I now understand why Hussey was sent down. However, there is no way that I'm going to believe that MAF was sent down other then for financial reasons. Many many many hockey anaylyst have said that he was DEFINETLY sent down for that reason. Thanks for clarifying the other misconceptions but personally I won't agree with the MAF situation.

Those hockey experts were wrong if indeed that is what they said.
Check his stats at the time of his demotion and compare them with the goals needed to trigger his bonus clause. He wasn't going to get it. It would have taken a super human feat in order to approach the numbers.
Check for yourself and then decide for yourself as well. Don't base it on what I say, or what some hockey expert says. If you look for yourself, in black and white, you will have a more informed opinion. Once you do, get back to me and we will go from there. But i think you will see what it is that I am trying to say here. Which is that he simply wasn't going to get his bonus money regardless of if he stayed or went.

 

[SwOOsh*]

I wasn't aware that his bonus clauses were released to the public, I was just going by what I was hearing on TSN, and SportsNet. If you say that he wasn't close to reaching these "bonuses" then I will take it as the truth as you seem to be an informed fan of the Penguins.

 

[Drake1588]

I can't speak for Pens fans, but I don't think you can find too many Caps fans that outright hate the Penguins anymore. Given the fortunes of both teams, the players traded, the renewed focus on youth across the board, there are plenty of parallels and reason for sympathy.

I don't suggest that necessarily extends to solidarity, mind you. Yet the respective fan bases have been subjected to enough humility over the past little while to dull whatever hatred did exist. For all we know, these two teams could be developing along similar tracks and a new rivalry of sorts could begin in the next two to three years.

 

[Chimaera]

I felt somewhat bad for them last year.

When we were ok.


But now that we're both about even (if we put in our best talent)

 

[Evilo]

I don't hate the Caps either.
Usually it works like this : Caps hate the Pens that hate the Flyers, that hate everyone else...

 

[stardog]

I wasn't aware that his bonus clauses were released to the public, I was just going by what I was hearing on TSN, and SportsNet. If you say that he wasn't close to reaching these "bonuses" then I will take it as the truth as you seem to be an informed fan of the Penguins.

Thanks for the trust, but just so you can see for yourself, if there is any lingering doubt,I decided to look it up for you anyways bro. Here is the link to what the bonuses are. As stated, he needed to hit four of them for the bonuses to kick in.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam031006/nhl_pit-ap.html

And here were his stats when he left for the Q.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00055016

Hey...I live to give!

It seems that the only one that was certainly obtainable was the .890 sv%. Considering that he had one shutout at the time of his demotion, I doubt he would have got another three. Though looking again, the 1800 minutes do seem obtainable as well.
After that, it is really highly unlikely.
Perhaps they sent him back to avoid paying him 400 or 800 grand in bonuses, and that is what the hockey experts were saying. At any rate, he was sent back for reasons other than money.

I understand though, where the speculation comes from. When he was on FIRE the first couple months of the season, everyone was saying that the Pens would send him back to avoid paying out 4 million extra when thier season wasn't going anywhere.
It seems that alot of people didnt realize what the bonuses were and just assumed that he was sent back because at one time in the season, it seemed like an easily obtainable goal. I guess people just saw that he was sent back and assumed that he was going to get his money. No harm in that I suppose and you took the right approach when you found out otherwise.

This next sentence is pure speculation of course, but to tell you the truth, I think they probably would have sent him back anyways. They simply couldnt afford a 4 million hit to thier already meager salary.
But as i said, that is speculation....and all of this to convince you that the team was icing its best team possible the entire year, IMO.
Hopefully now you believe that.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

according to the post gazette, caps were 22 pts ahead of us on february 22nd.

we gained 21 pts on them in 5 weeks? it's hard enough getting 21 pts in 5 weeks, let alone catching up 21 pts.

 

[Drake1588]

Argue the point if you like, but if Pittsburgh management was genuinely interested in icing its best possible team, they would still have Andy Chiodo in the lineup. The team keeps winning anyway, and while that is a major credit to the players and to Olczyk, Patrick and Lemieux cannot be pleased.

This appears to be a fairly balanced article on the subject. Neither team is above reproach at the management level:
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04090/293442.stm

The difference appears to be that when Pitttsburgh tries to tank, they end up winning more games... at least the Caps follow through!