4 teams are figthing for the 1st overall:

[PSUhockey34]

No, but the 2 Years(possibly 3) weve been eligable for the lottery, we've slid down. We also lost an Expansion Draft Coin Flip that gave us 4th Overall in 2000 instead of 3rd Overall.

(im not sure about how the lottery was conducted in 2000, but I think that the BLue Jackets had the % of a 3rd Place Team, and they slid down then. Does anyone remember how they did it in 2000?)

I dont know what you're complaining about, the Blue Jackets drafted pretty well with their first pick in each draft so far

 

[stardog]

Yes, the Capitals are tanking and it does look like a bad thing to do. But, you cannot say the Penguins haven't tried to tank. They may have tried harder then Caps management to tank, but it backfired. I think it's more embarassing what the Penguins have done then the Caps.

Couldn't disagree more. How do you figured they tried to tank? They iced the best possible team that they had from players in thier system. They didn't have the money to sign any kind of strong free agents, and they recieved good value for Straka (whom they couldn't afford to keep). I dont see how you can construe rebuilding as tanking.
There is a difference. They weren't playing thier worst prospects over thier better ones. Again, they iced the best possible team from what they had in thier system. Just because it wasn't good enough for most of the year (which rebuilding team is) doesn't mean that they were, or are tanking. It means they are rebuilding with the focus on youth. Everyone knew that as of last year.
Sorry, but I dont buy the theory that they were, or are tanking the season. Everyone knew they would be bad coming in because of thier inexperience.

 

[stardog]

There are teams in the NHL with the right to show contempt for the Caps for tanking the season. The Penguins are not one of them. Show a little institutional memory and harken back 20 years, please. The Penguins' Mario gambit in 1984 taught the Caps everything they know about tanking to try and draft a franchise player.

Sorry but i don't buy that theory either. Noone on the current management team is resposnsible for what happened 20 years ago. Neither were the fans. Keep things in current perspective while not holding the current Pittsburgh Penguin accountable for mistakes that another version of them made in the past.
And they were hit because of it with the draft lottery implemented to ensure that tanking doesnt happen.
What is going to hold the current Caps accountable if they win?
It is shameful to the league then, and it is shameful to the league now.

 

[EroCaps]

Sorry but i don't buy that theory either. Noone on the current management team is resposnsible for what happened 20 years ago. Neither were the fans. Keep things in current perspective while not holding the current Pittsburgh Penguin accountable for mistakes that another version of them made in the past.
And they were hit because of it with the draft lottery implemented to ensure that tanking doesnt happen.
What is going to hold the current Caps accountable if they win?
It is shameful to the league then, and it is shameful to the league now.

If our minor league team wasn't struggling to make the playoffs, I might agree with you. McPhee has legit reasons to be playing our rookies in Portland, and that's the possible experience of a playoff run.

 

[SwOOsh*]

Couldn't disagree more. How do you figured they tried to tank? They iced the best possible team that they had from players in thier system. They didn't have the money to sign any kind of strong free agents, and they recieved good value for Straka (whom they couldn't afford to keep). I dont see how you can construe rebuilding as tanking.
There is a difference. They weren't playing thier worst prospects over thier better ones. Again, they iced the best possible team from what they had in thier system. Just because it wasn't good enough for most of the year (which rebuilding team is) doesn't mean that they were, or are tanking. It means they are rebuilding with the focus on youth. Everyone knew that as of last year.
Sorry, but I dont buy the theory that they were, or are tanking the season. Everyone knew they would be bad coming in because of thier inexperience.

Good response. But still I think in ways they haven't iced their best team as I stated above. Sure the Caps have done some "tanking" moves but the other teams near the bottom have also done some questionable moves.

 

[stardog]

For what it's worth, it appears from hints in the papers that Mario Lemieux, wearing his owner's hat, is not altogether happy about his team's recent record.

Links? Mario hasn't spoken to reporters in since forever. Maybe he spoke with reporters outside of Pittsburgh, but that is why I asked for links. I'd like to see what he had to say about all this, if he indeed did say anything.

 

[SwOOsh*]

Sorry but i don't buy that theory either. Noone on the current management team is resposnsible for what happened 20 years ago. Neither were the fans. Keep things in current perspective while not holding the current Pittsburgh Penguin accountable for mistakes that another version of them made in the past.
And they were hit because of it with the draft lottery implemented to ensure that tanking doesnt happen.
What is going to hold the current Caps accountable if they win?
It is shameful to the league then, and it is shameful to the league now.

ummm.... the person that it had the greatest effect on and is the only reason the Penguins are here today had a lot to do with that... (Mario Lemieux)

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Like I said the Caps are definetly tanking right now. But you cannot say the Pens have tried not too. IMO the Pens situation is way more of a disgrace then anything, and that is why everyone mentions them when the word contraction comes up.

The Capitals tried to ice a good team at the start of the season and it didn't work. While Pittsburgh played an AHL team the whole season, sending down their best player MAF (because of money reasons which is a total joke), then again sending down another goalie who was playing decent for them Choido, and on and on...
Hussey being sent down when he scores two goals in two games, so don't act like your team hasn't been trying, especially when they play certain players on the PK and PP that definetly shouldn't be there.

If this was the other way around and the Pens were playing really poorly, you know you would be defending them, but just because it's backfiring you act like it's not happening.

1. Fleury was our best player. In October. His play wasn't too bad, but the results were. It was best for his development that he went back to Cape Breton. And finances had little to do with it, at the time he was sent down he only had secured 1 of the 4 triggers needed to get his bonuses.
2. Hussey was sent down because...well...he sucks. He was nice in those two games, but in those two games he had as many goals as he had all season in the NHL. It was a fluke him scoring those goals, nothing more. Yeats could go out and pitch a shutout on tuesday and that still won't make him a good goalie.
3. Pittsburgh has played a AHL team all season perhaps, but it's still the best team we could have iced. It's not like we've been starting Martin Brochu over Sebastien Caron. It's called promising youth. The Penguins turn around has alot to do with our players maturing. Look at most of our players today and at the start of the season and you're seeing two completely different players.
4. Chiodo was sent down for the AHL playoffs, he's been the Baby Penguins goalie all season and will be their starter in the playoffs. It's not like we recalled Joe Exter in place of him, we recalled a guy on last year's all-rookie team...

Pittsburgh has been far from throwing this season. If we finish last in the NHL it's not because our guys didn't try. No one who has played against, coached against, or even watched a Penguins game this year will say this team hasn't given it 100% every game out.

The Capitals may not have combined to give 100% yet this season.

I just have a serious problem with Yeats. Alright, I can see it's an "emergency" call-up like we had with Martin Brochu, but you know the difference? Brochu played 33 ****ing minutes for us where Yeats is starting over a guy who has been to the All Star game how many times?

 

[tom_servo]

I read the Pittsburgh papers daily, and there have been no "hints" from Mario Lemieux either way.

Eddie Johnston, though, who was most responsible for the '84 tankjob (it happened, but considering how bad the Pens were anyway, it was less a tankjob than mere insurance) is still in the organization, as a scout (with various other duties). I'm sure he and Craig Patrick realize the importance of getting a stud in this draft.

When you're a team as bad as the Pens were/are, or the old Sens/Sharks, there's so shame in assuring yourself the player who will most likely help you out of the basement. It's just strategy.

Considering their swooping selloff of talent (with no up front talent in return), and having some ECHLer play their final games, the '04 Caps will probably ecplise the legend of the '84 Pens, even if they don't get the big payoff.

 

[stardog]

C'mon, I love Bondra as much as anyone but he's not close to a franchise player....by which I mean a 1st/2nd ballot HOFer. The Pens have had 2 in recent memory (1 of which was the best at his sport that I've ever seen.....didn't get into hockey till Gretz was outta Edmonton), and you can hardly equate the lazy unmotivated Jagr we got with him in his prime....he's a shell of what he was. Besides, considering what Pitt had to do with MAF this year how on earth do you expect them to be able to put out a decent team for Ovy to play with when they'll never get outta that lease in that revenue hell that Melon arena is? Yeah, I agree Stevens was the 1 franchise guy they've had but because of a tightass owner we had to suffer through for decades his prime was spent mocking us every time we saw him.....besides, as great as he is/was a stay at home d-man insn't exactly something to excite the masses.

The Pens had their turn (twice) now please let the Caps have 1!!

Couple of things...

1) The Pens get out of thier lease in 2007, at which time, if a new arena isnt either in place, or being built, I would expect there is going to be alot of discussion as to whether or not the Pens will remain in Pitt.
I for one expect a new arena to be built so it may be a moot point IMO.

2) I wouldn't worry to much about them being able to ice a better team than they had this year for Ovechkin. Have you seen thier record recently? More important, have you seen them play? This team is a far cry from the one that started the season. The core guys have really improved more than expected, much to the point that next season they should be MUCH more competitive and won't be in the running for Crosby IMO.

3) I think that a case could be made for Bondra being a franchise player. Not anymore, but in his prime. Of course this all depends on what you definition of what constitues a Franchise tag. I dont think Lang is one because he hasn't had the same level of consistent great performance over the sustained period of time others have. Kolzig could make an argument for it as well, but IMO he falls just short.
Bondra however, is a different stroy. He was dominant in his prime over a period of years.
Now he wasnt at the level of a Jagr or a Lemiuex, but IMO, a franchise guy none the less.
Jagr too, was a FP when you guys first traded for him. Whether he wasn't used right in Wash, or he wasn't motivated, or both isnt the issue. What is the issue is that he was a FP when you traded for him, which technically gave you guys a FP. His play, attitude and desire declined over the years, which I find just sad. When he wants to be, he has the best combination of size, strength, skill and talent out of any player in the league. It just so happens his desire isn't there anymore.
Makes me sick to think what he could have been still if he didn't have the emotional equivilant of a child.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

In his prime I have no question that Bondra was a franchise player.

Didn't he have the second most goals in the league(after Jagr) in a 5 or 6 year span before Jagr was acquired by Washington?

 

[tom_servo]

Bondra was a fringe franchise player. He had a lot of goals, but was off/on season to season, and did nothing but score goals.

 

[stardog]

I can understand your frustraion but last night Witt was hurt, thus leaving waiver pickup Brad Norton as arguably their best d-man....all against probably the best O in the league....I think the result was likely inevitable.

Agreed.

What I find ironic is the decline of Washington SINCE the Jagr deal actually. They used to be known as one of the very best defensive teams in the league. A team you hated playing against with tough, hard nosed two way players.

Whether they get AO or not, they are going to have a bright draft regardless. 3 first round picks to add to an already strong stable of prospects makes for a solid future.

I think the anger stems from seeing Yeats get 2 starts in a row more than anything. That is what is so shameless as there is no other reason to give him those starts over Kolzig, than trying to lose.
Other fans see this, and see thier teams still trying to win, despite the season being basically over, and they feel cheated. The teams certainly should try to the very end and let the chips fall where they may.
The Caps just do not seem to be doing so and thus are being percieved by fans as not playing fairly.
Right or wrong, that seems to be where the anger stems from.
The other teams in the running could have easily done the same thing, yet they did not do so.

 

[EroCaps]

In his prime I have no question that Bondra was a franchise player.

Didn't he have the second most goals in the league(after Jagr) in a 5 or 6 year span before Jagr was acquired by Washington?

Bondra is a great player, and arguably the most beloved Capital, but he was one-dimensional, streaky, and never a vocal leader or captain.

Maybe it's that I have higher standards for what makes franchise player: Stevens, Roy, Messier, Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Bourque, Lemieux, Francis, Yzerman, Espo, Brodeur, Lafleur, etc.

 

[EroCaps]

Agreed.

What I find ironic is the decline of Washington SINCE the Jagr deal actually. They used to be known as one of the very best defensive teams in the league. A team you hated playing against with tough, hard nosed two way players.

Whether they get AO or not, they are going to have a bright draft regardless. 3 first round picks to add to an already strong stable of prospects makes for a solid future.

I think the anger stems from seeing Yeats get 2 starts in a row more than anything. That is what is so shameless as there is no other reason to give him those starts over Kolzig, than trying to lose.
Other fans see this, and see thier teams still trying to win, despite the season being basically over, and they feel cheated. The teams certainly should try to the very end and let the chips fall where they may.
The Caps just do not seem to be doing so and thus are being percieved by fans as not playing fairly.
Right or wrong, that seems to be where the anger stems from.
The other teams in the running could have easily done the same thing, yet they did not do so.

The anger stems from something personal man. :p

The Caps have given more effort and played with more grit and passion than they have since the initial Jagr trade. They haven't been a tough defensive team in years, and it's exactly for this reason that we failed last year and subsequently dismantled this season.

We're losing because we haven't the talent.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Bondra is a great player, and arguably the most beloved Capital, but he was one-dimensional, streaky, and never a vocal leader or captain.

Maybe it's that I have higher standards for what makes franchise player: Stevens, Roy, Messier, Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Bourque, Lemieux, Francis, Yzerman, Espo, Brodeur, Lafleur, etc.

In my opinion a franchise player...is...well a player that a franchise is/can be built around.

Bondra was that IMO.

He was far from the best, but the Capitals were still built around him for nearly a decade.

 

[stardog]

Like I said the Caps are definetly tanking right now. But you cannot say the Pens have tried not too. IMO the Pens situation is way more of a disgrace then anything, and that is why everyone mentions them when the word contraction comes up.

The Capitals tried to ice a good team at the start of the season and it didn't work. While Pittsburgh played an AHL team the whole season, sending down their best player MAF (because of money reasons which is a total joke), then again sending down another goalie who was playing decent for them Choido, and on and on...
Hussey being sent down when he scores two goals in two games, so don't act like your team hasn't been trying, especially when they play certain players on the PK and PP that definetly shouldn't be there.

Dear Lord...Ok where do i start.

First of all, if you think Maffy was the best player then that is the wrong premise to start on.
That title goes to at least four opther guys, with another six who played just as well as Maffy.
Second of all, they didn't send him down because of money. That is a misconception based on a common ignorance. Maffy more likely than not would NOT have made his bonus money. His stats were well off what they needed to be in order for the clause to kick in.
Chiodo was sent down to bring up Caron, who also played well for them at times. Chido was sent down for the AHL teams playoff run and to be the go to guy in said run. They did not want to have him split time with Aubin. And let me ask you this. When Aubin was hurt, they brought up Martin Brochu for a couple of games. If they were indeed tanking as you accuse, wouldn't they have started him over Caron?

Next, Hussey was brought up as AN EMERGENCY injury REPLACEMENT. Morozov was hurt. When Morozov came back, since Hussey was on a call up only as an emergency, and the Pens had used up thier 4 AHL transactions, by NHL rules he HAD to be sent down. HIM, and only him. He played very well in his time here, but when Alex came back, Hussey HAD to be sent down according to the RULES of the NHL.
So in essence, both of your theories, or examples as to the Penguins obviously tanking it have been shot out of the water. Are there any more reasons besides these two?
Because those two arent accurate what so ever. I wouldn't expect you to know the reasons behind the moves seeing as you aren't a Pens fan. That is why i pointed out the error in your argument in order to edjucate you on the reasons behind both moves. Neither of these two were done by management to throw the season. There were valid reasons and rules behind the moves.
Maffy's play had slipped big time and they wanted to send him back to juniors because they felt it was best for his development. NOT...I repeat, NOT to save money on his bonuses which he wouldnt have reached anyways. And NOT to save money on the remaining NHL portion of his contract, because he was payed his full season's salary anyways.
Hussey HAD to be returned to the AHL because that is the rules of the NHL. They couldnt have sent anybody else in his place.
Now that your reasons have been factually desputed do you still feel the Pens have tanked the season and HONESTLY NOT iced the best possible team from what they had in thier orginization?
If you DO, I would REALLY like to hear the reasons as to why.

If this was the other way around and the Pens were playing really poorly, you know you would be defending them, but just because it's backfiring you act like it's not happening.

That is pure speculation. We have played poorly all year and due to the hard work and improvement, AND more importantly (for the sake of disproving your argument) due to managements UPGRADING of the team (trading Berehowsky for Jackman, picking up Wilson and Sim and trading Holzinger for Pirijata), we have IMPROVED our team from the start of the season.
Yes, IMPROVED. There is no backfiring to speak of. The goal was not to make the playoffs, but to grow and improve as a team. That is what rebuilding is all about. And in that regard, our team has done well this season.

If they were indeed tanking, then management would have stuck with the team that lost 18 straight games now wouldn't it. They would have been satisfied with the team that was in last plcft of the year now wouldn't they.
They would NOT have made an effort to make the team any better, to help the roster, or to upgrade any weaknesses with servicable vets. They would have kepth the same guys who floated through much of the season.

I am sorry, but to suggest that they tanked the season, or are tanking now is absurd. To suggest that something backfired, when the moves they made were an obvious upgrade, is even more absurd.

 

[stardog]

In 2000 picking 4th they got Klesla....3rd was Gaborik (ouch).

BIG ouch!
Can you imagine a line of Gaborik/Nash/Zherdev??? That could possibly be the most dominating line for 10 years!
Although Klesla is certainly a good player, man if i were a Jackets fan I would drool at the thought of the above mentioned line.

 

[stardog]

If our minor league team wasn't struggling to make the playoffs, I might agree with you. McPhee has legit reasons to be playing our rookies in Portland, and that's the possible experience of a playoff run.

That is a theroy that I can buy into, and that is at least a legitimate excuse. It is important for a rebuilding team to experience a playoff run.
It still doesnt explain why Yeats is getting the starts though...

 

[stardog]

ummm.... the person that it had the greatest effect on and is the only reason the Penguins are here today had a lot to do with that... (Mario Lemieux)

No he wasn't. He was not a member of the Penguins team or management that tanked that season at all. He played in the QMJHL when all of this happened.
He may have been the beneficiary of it, but to suggest he was a part of it is false.

 

[stardog]

Good response. But still I think in ways they haven't iced their best team as I stated above. Sure the Caps have done some "tanking" moves but the other teams near the bottom have also done some questionable moves.

I adressed that not icing the best possible team above.
They did, and they are.

 

[stardog]

The anger stems from something personal man. :p

The Caps have given more effort and played with more grit and passion than they have since the initial Jagr trade. They haven't been a tough defensive team in years, and it's exactly for this reason that we failed last year and subsequently dismantled this season.

We're losing because we haven't the talent.

Perhaps I didnt specify, but that was my point. They WERE a great defensive team BEFORE the Jage trade. Not since.

And for the record, unlike alot of Pens fans, I have nothing personal against the Caps.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

And for the record, unlike alot of Pens fans, I have nothing personal against the Caps.

I don't think many Pens fans do really.

It's always been a one-sided rivalry(much like the Pens-Flyers to us Pens fans).

I never had anything wrong with Washington until this season.

 

[Marshall]

In my opinion a franchise player...is...well a player that a franchise is/can be built around.

Bondra was that IMO.

He was far from the best, but the Capitals were still built around him for nearly a decade.

The Caps weren't built around Bondra. They were a defense-first team, all the way up to when Jagr got here. Then they tried to switch the paradigm, unsuccessfully.

Just because he was the often the only offensive option doesn't make him a franchise player. Bondra isn't a franchise player.

That said, I'm a huge Bondra fan.

 

[Pavel]

It would be a shame for Pittsburgh to lose out on the first pick after their fans had to endure 60 or so games of the worst hockey I've seen in years. Only to have them screw it up and win enough games to cost them the best shot at first overall would cap a truly terrible season.