2023 Traverse City Tournament

[Jovavic]

Sillinger was already one of the best players in that tournament two years ago. I don’t think he has anything to prove against fringe nhl guys/prospects

He may have two years of pro experience but Sillinger is still very much a prospect. Kid needs all the reps and game time he can handle.

 

[tunnelvision]

He may have two years of pro experience but Sillinger is still very much a prospect. Kid needs all the reps and game time he can handle.

I think working on his skating right before camp is much more important for him than to play in a prospects tournament he's already experienced.

 

[Cowumbus]

are people actually mad that voronkov is going instead of sillinger? we've waited five years for him to come over, this means we get to see him in a CBJ uniform a little bit earlier.

Nobody is mad except you. Some of us have been watching him play, not just waiting.

from a player dev standpoint… voronkov should be getting as much game speed action as he can before the season starts, since he isn't used to the NA ice/game.

Lies.
Again, KHL uses NA size ice. So did WJC, so did the Olympics…

he has more to gain from playing there than sillinger, who the jackets have had in the building for two years and gave marching orders to at the end of last season.

Not really. He has more to lose if anything.

i'm sure both guys will play big preseason minutes as they're likely competing for the same lineup spot. it would actually put voronkov at a disadvantage to not play in traverse, as his first game action on NA ice would come during that competition.

Spin of the year.

 

[majormajor]

are people actually mad that voronkov is going instead of sillinger? we've waited five years for him to come over, this means we get to see him in a CBJ uniform a little bit earlier.

No I'm happy to see him, for my sake as a fan, though I don't think it serves any purpose for Voronkov. Traverse is mostly about building a team sense among our prospects and Voronkov is already past that age and probably in the NHL. I suppose it gives him an English immersion opportunity.

from a player dev standpoint… voronkov should be getting as much game speed action as he can before the season starts, since he isn't used to the NA ice/game. he has more to gain from playing there than sillinger, who the jackets have had in the building for two years and gave marching orders to at the end of last season.

i'm sure both guys will play big preseason minutes as they're likely competing for the same lineup spot. it would actually put voronkov at a disadvantage to not play in traverse, as his first game action on NA ice would come during that competition.

Traverse will be about as much game speed as playing in a summer scrimmage group. A thrown together tourney like this won't look more like NA hockey than the KHL. And the ice size is the same in Kazan as it is here.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

He may have two years of pro experience but Sillinger is still very much a prospect. Kid needs all the reps and game time he can handle.

i'm not saying this isn't the case, but there's an argument against it imo.

cole sillinger gp by year:

Year	GP	League(s)
2019-20	48	WHL
2020-21	31	USHL
2021-22	79	NHL
2022-23	75	NHL (64) AHL (11)

he played the same number of games in the NHL as a 18-year-old rookie as he did in his draft and D-1 years COMBINED. he struggled more and more as the season went on last year.

i don't think it helps much to make him jump back into action against teenagers. they gave him his marching orders at exit interview day. he knows he's competing for a roster spot. let him take the full offseason to work on his game and establish better pro habits.

voronkov needs to adjust to NA ice, so more game action makes sense. sillinger needs to improve mechanics and fitness – cutting his offseason short by a week doesn't really achieve much.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Nobody is mad except you.

obligatory:

Some of us have been watching him play, not just waiting.

you must've missed the part where i said we've been waiting five years to see him in a cbj jersey

Lies.
Again, KHL uses NA size ice. So did WJC, so did the Olympics…

ak bars plays on a hybrid sized rink (or did last time i checked, may have changed) that's in between the international and NA sizes. the WJC he played in was also on a hybrid sized rink in czechia.

Not really. He has more to lose if anything.

[citation needed]

 

[majormajor]

ak bars plays on a hybrid sized rink (or did last time i checked, may have changed) that's in between the international and NA sizes. the WJC he played in was also on a hybrid sized rink in czechia.

Ak Bars Kazan switched to NA size (26m x 60m) three or four years ago. SKA a few years before that.

It's KHL policy to play on 26m x 60m rinks and at this point there are only a shrinking minority of teams still on larger rinks. So I hope folks will stop thinking that Russian prospects need to get used to the rink size. It wasn't true for Marchenko either but we still spent a long time talking about how he had to get used to the rink size.

2021-2022 KHL rink sizes

Hello all, It took a couple of weeks to research this and get a response from people in the KHL but I've updated the KHL rink size image from 2 years ago.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Cowumbus]

[citation needed]

Apply this to your own stance?

How about the injury risk?

Blackhawks Prospect Tournament Ends With Several Injuries - The Hockey Writers Blackhawks Prospects Latest News, Analysis & More

The Blackhawks feel they have a bright future ahead of them, but some of the top propsects were injured during Tuesday's game versus Minnesota.

thehockeywriters.com

Boqvist, Dach, Kurashev all got hurt in 2019 at Traverse City. Didn’t Werenski get hurt in 2016 at Traverse City? Was he considered an NHL lock for 16/17, me thinks yes.

Do we think physical players who have skill are going to be more likely or less likely to draw the ire of opponents?

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Apply this to your own stance?

How about the injury risk?

Blackhawks Prospect Tournament Ends With Several Injuries - The Hockey Writers Blackhawks Prospects Latest News, Analysis & More

The Blackhawks feel they have a bright future ahead of them, but some of the top propsects were injured during Tuesday's game versus Minnesota.

thehockeywriters.com

you said voronkov had 'more to lose' than sillinger and your argument is that… he could get injured?

1. that same argument applies to sillinger
2. if we're going by that logic the jackets might as well not participate at all
3. players can get injured during practice, too. no one is saying they shouldn't practice.

Boqvist, Dach, Kurashev all got hurt in 2019 at Traverse City.

1. none of the injuries were serious. in fact, kurashev was back on the ice the next day.
2. all three players were teenagers at the time (voronkov is 23)
3. two of those three (kurashev/boqvist) are small to begin with (voronkov is not)

Didn’t Werenski get hurt in 2016 at Traverse City? Was he considered an NHL lock for 16/17, me thinks yes.

…the same zach werenski who was in the lineup on opening night and played 78 games that year? that zach werenski?

Do we think physical players who have skill are going to be more likely or less likely to draw the ire of opponents?

does sillinger also not fit that exact definition? but you're saying they should send him? are you opposed to sending fantilli? jiricek? svozil?

 

[Cowumbus]

you said voronkov had 'more to lose' than sillinger and your argument is that… he could get injured?

1. that same argument applies to sillinger
2. if we're going by that logic the jackets might as well not participate at all
3. players can get injured during practice, too. no one is saying they shouldn't practice.

1. none of the injuries were serious. in fact, kurashev was back on the ice the next day.
2. all three players were teenagers at the time (voronkov is 23)
3. two of those three (kurashev/boqvist) are small to begin with (voronkov is not)

…the same zach werenski who was in the lineup on opening night and played 78 games that year? that zach werenski?


does sillinger also not fit that exact definition? but you're saying they should send him? are you opposed to sending fantilli? jiricek? svozil?

Lol

You’re trying too hard to grasp at straws. Injury risk is only one aspect as to why he should not attend. Yet now you’ve moved your entire stance from COWUMBUS needs provide evidence, (which I have now done regarding injury and rink sizes) to now “well the injuries weren’t even that bad.”

Sillinger is a prospect, Voronkov is not. Not that hard to comprehend. Since now you want to talk about injuries - if Voronkov gets hurt, it is much more drastic than Sillinger. Sillinger has time to make the roster / contract years left, and does not have the “threat” of making a significant amount of money back in his home country. Voronkov can dip out.

To answer your last question, no Sillinger does not fit that lol. I’d send all the guys you mentioned, you know, since they are prospects. But if there was a question about any of them, it would be Fantilli.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Lol

You’re trying too hard to grasp at straws. Injury risk is only one aspect as to why he should not attend. Yet now you’ve moved your entire stance from COWUMBUS needs provide evidence, (which I have now done regarding injury and rink sizes) to now “well the injuries weren’t even that bad.”

again: you said that voronkov has "more to lose" than sillinger because he might get injured. but it's not like sillinger is magically impervious to injury in the tournament, either. or fantilli, or jiricek.

my point isn't that "the injuries weren't bad" it's that the odds of a player suffering a significant, season-ending injury playing against a bunch of teenagers is probably lower than the risk of that happening during a regular season NHL game, and thus is insignificant enough that it shouldn't be a consideration.

if you're that risk-averse, you might as well just not send a team up there.

Sillinger is a prospect, Voronkov is not.

voronkov very much is a prospect.

sillinger isn't a finished product but they have 143 games of NHL tape on the kid and two years of having him in the building. voronkov has zero games and just showed up on this continent a couple weeks ago.

just because he aged out of pronman's prospect rankings does not mean that the nhl team that drafted him (which he's played zero games for) doesn't still view him as one.

if Voronkov gets hurt, it is much more drastic than Sillinger. Sillinger has time to make the roster / contract years left,

voronkov has two years on his ELC, sillinger has one left.

if sillinger gets hurt, he loses an opportunity to cash in on his first RFA opportunity. that's what happened to chinakhov, which led to him literally taking a paycut (925k to 800k) on a one-year deal.

voronkov makes the same amount next year no matter what.

and does not have the “threat” of making a significant amount of money back in his home country. Voronkov can dip out.

so, this (infinitesimally tiny probability) outcome that you're saying should prevent voronkov from playing in the tournament is:

1. voronkov gets hurt in the tournament
2. he's out of the lineup past his exit clause date
3. as a result, he returns to russia before playing an NHL game

…but if he gets injured during the preseason, he'd be on the NHL IR list. so if it's a serious injury, he would literally be on the NHL roster past his exit clause date, meaning he couldn't trigger the exit clause.

if he was set to return before the exit clause date, they could buy more time by loaning him to the AHL on a rehab assignment, in which case he would still be on the NHL roster, and thus ineligible to return to russia.

but again: if this was a concern, might as well hold him out of camp and the entire preseason as well, right? or every game before his exit clause kicks in?

To answer your last question, no Sillinger does not fit that lol.

"physical, skilled player who gets under opponents' skin" was pretty much the tl;dr of every single cole sillinger scouting report from pre-draft through his rookie year. even if he hasn't (consistently) been that player in the NHL doesn't mean that's not exactly how he would play in traverse.

 

[Cowumbus]

again: you said that voronkov has "more to lose" than sillinger because he might get injured. but it's not like sillinger is magically impervious to injury in the tournament, either. or fantilli, or jiricek.

my point isn't that "the injuries weren't bad" it's that the odds of a player suffering a significant, season-ending injury playing against a bunch of teenagers is probably lower than the risk of that happening during a regular season NHL game, and thus is insignificant enough that it shouldn't be a consideration.

if you're that risk-averse, you might as well just not send a team up there.

voronkov very much is a prospect.

sillinger isn't a finished product but they have 143 games of NHL tape on the kid and two years of having him in the building. voronkov has zero games and just showed up on this continent a couple weeks ago.

just because he aged out of pronman's prospect rankings does not mean that the nhl team that drafted him (which he's played zero games for) doesn't still view him as one.

voronkov has two years on his ELC, sillinger has one left.

if sillinger gets hurt, he loses an opportunity to cash in on his first RFA opportunity. that's what happened to chinakhov, which led to him literally taking a paycut (925k to 800k) on a one-year deal.

voronkov makes the same amount next year no matter what.


so, this (infinitesimally tiny probability) outcome that you're saying should prevent voronkov from playing in the tournament is:

1. voronkov gets hurt in the tournament
2. he's out of the lineup past his exit clause date
3. as a result, he returns to russia before playing an NHL game

…but if he gets injured during the preseason, he'd be on the NHL IR list. so if it's a serious injury, he would literally be on the NHL roster past his exit clause date, meaning he couldn't trigger the exit clause.

if he was set to return before the exit clause date, they could buy more time by loaning him to the AHL on a rehab assignment, in which case he would still be on the NHL roster, and thus ineligible to return to russia.

but again: if this was a concern, might as well hold him out of camp and the entire preseason as well, right? or every game before his exit clause kicks in?


"physical, skilled player who gets under opponents' skin" was pretty much the tl;dr of every single cole sillinger scouting report from pre-draft through his rookie year. even if he hasn't (consistently) been that player in the NHL doesn't mean that's not exactly how he would play in traverse.

Clearly you either cannot read, or continue to look past my point and be purposefully obtuse. I can’t tell if you’re missing the point by that much, or trying to be so off the mark that you can form an argument to be made… anyway, there is no sense in “debating” with you, cheers.

Feel free to go back and think about it all again though, try not to jump to conclusions like you did about contracts - pay has nothing to do with what I was talking about. And if you read your own words, I think you proved my point about Voronkov having more to lose w.r.t. CBJ brass (due to injury/out-clause). <- and before you jump to conclusions again, no that’s not the only thing he “has to lose”

Re-read your last paragraph. You’re making my point again.

 

[Viqsi]

Sillinger is a prospect, Voronkov is not. Not that hard to comprehend.

The only part I find difficult is the "Voronkov is not" part. Voronkov has zero NHL time; until he's played in the NHL, he's a prospect. I get that you think his time in professional play in the KHL disqualifies him; I just don't agree. I suspect that is also true of others here.

 

[Cowumbus]

The only part I find difficult is the "Voronkov is not" part. Voronkov has zero NHL time; until he's played in the NHL, he's a prospect. I get that you think his time in professional play in the KHL disqualifies him; I just don't agree. I suspect that is also true of others here.

You think Panarin should have played at the 2015 Traverse City Tournament, at age 23? Zero NHL time, so still a prospect. Kuzemenko should have been at Vancouver dev camp last year too? Imagine 2019 sending Gavrikov to Traverse City at age 23 (we didn’t).

All of them have/had NOTHING to prove. They were/are valuable pieces to good teams in the second best league in the world, I don’t see any need for them to scrimmage 19 year olds, many of which will never see the NHL ice.

If you want to say he’s a prospect because he hasn’t seen NHL action - fine. However, Traverse City is not intended for guys of Voronkov’s standing to play, with respect to his age, accomplishments, and seasons played professionally.

 

[majormajor]

You think Panarin should have played at the 2015 Traverse City Tournament, at age 23? Zero NHL time, so still a prospect. Kuzemenko should have been at Vancouver dev camp last year too? Imagine 2019 sending Gavrikov to Traverse City at age 23 (we didn’t).

All of them have/had NOTHING to prove. They were/are valuable pieces to good teams in the second best league in the world, I don’t see any need for them to scrimmage 19 year olds, many of which will never see the NHL ice.

I agree with you but I've got hairs on my feet that are more important than this conversation. Maybe we can take it down a notch.

 

[Cowumbus]

I agree with you but I've got hairs on my feet that are more important than this conversation. Maybe we can take it down a notch.

You prob right. Also, gross.

If he gets hurt though I at least deserve the right to bitch and complain

 

[stevo61]

I agree with you but I've got hairs on my feet that are more important than this conversation. Maybe we can take it down a notch.

So about these hairs... do you have any pictures on your phone I can see?

As far as the tournament I dont understand the big deal. I dont thibk the top guys are out to prove themselves I think Voronkov wants to get touches and also use it as an introduction to a new country. Hell Detroit is sending Soderblom who had a decent NHL stint and noone cares.

 

[majormajor]

So about these hairs... do you have any pictures on your phone I can see?

I don't know let me check my dic pic folder.

/s

Apparently all guys under 50 have nudes on their phone, and no one told me? That's what I've learned in the last couple days.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[thebus88]

Without looking at other rosters, the team overall seems pretty “loaded”. Every year there seems to be a “Top 2-3”. Dumb that they changed the format where it’s not an actual tournament anymore. The championship games were most of the time pretty intense and great games.

Overall I disagree with some, these games are MUCH different and more important than some random summer scrimmage stuff, and they are also GREAT for a Russian/European guy coming over for the 1st time to get used to both the language barrier and just acclimating themselves with the organization and other players and just the culture of both life and hockey over here overall.

You can’t get TOO blown away, as some fans do, from big offensive numbers put up over a few games, but ACTUALLY WATCHING, I’d say you can take MORE away from these games than you can from most WJC games or random January regular season games against f***ing Amur/Saint John/Sarnia/Bemidji State.

 

[tunnelvision]

Apparently all guys under 50 have nudes on their phone, and no one told me? That's what I've learned in the last couple days.

Let me take a wild guess, you've never been really popular among hockey coaches?

Game stream links already up here (vimeo)

NHL Prospect Tournament

www.centreice.org

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

So about these hairs... do you have any pictures on your phone I can see?

This is my favorite post in HF history for today.

 

[Doggy]

I am not jumping into the Voronkov to Traverse City debate. I have no issues with him going but would have no issue if he wasn't either. So I have no horse in this race. But I do have a sincere question for those of you that watch KHL hockey.

Example: I play pickleball and one of my groups are former tennis players. They are using pickleball paddles, pickleballs and playing on a pickleball court. But, they are still playing tennis: they stay back at the baseline stroking balls back and forth rather than playing pickleball getting up to the net, hitting drop shots and dinking. Nice group and their tennis style works for them because they are playing against people playing the same style but if they ever get matched up against two pickleballers they get beat pretty soundly most of the time.

I hear people citing that the KHL now has many if not mostly North American sized rinks. The question is: are the players playing North American style hockey on thees rinks or are they still trying to play European open ice style hockey on these smaller rinks? I am not dissing European style hockey (it can be quite fun to watch) but we know playing it doesn't guarantee a positive or rapid transition to North American style hockey.