Prospect Info: 2020-2021 Prospect Thread (CHL, NCAA, Europe) Part II

[Foppa2118]

Totally and completely disagree on Z. Bednar went out of his way to be flexible and deployed him in the only way he can be effective—by pinning him on one guy the whole night. But even then he just wasn’t consistent enough. And Zadorov is still having issues in Chicago so while I too at one time thought Bednar was way too rigid with the big guy, there was a reason for it. He’s just...not that good of a hockey player despite having all the physical tools.

Whether Bednar was right or not with Z isn't the point. We're talking about whether Bednar is flexible or not with his system.

I don't see any case for Bednar being flexible with Z. He had the shortest leash on the team, pretty much his entire tenure.

 

[Pokecheque]

Whether Bednar was right or not with Z isn't the point. We're talking about whether Bednar is flexible or not with his system.

I don't see any case for Bednar being flexible with Z. He had the shortest leash on the team, pretty much his entire tenure.

And like I said, there's a reason he was on a short leash, but I also don't think Z was not put in a position to succeed--quite the opposite. He was given a top-four role, paired with the team's two best defensemen at the time, and also deployed in a manner that best benefited his skill set. It wasn't until later that Bednar finally had had enough and relegated him to the third pairing for that final season. Bednar also continued to count on him to kill penalties even though Zadorov is absolutely abominable at it.

And yes I think Bednar is flexible with his system. He made it work for the most part with a guy like Soderberg who absolutely did not fit what the coach wanted to do, a slow dump-and-chase guy as opposed to someone with speed and skill making controlled exits and entries. But he counted on Soda for a ton of minutes and a major role for most of two seasons. Judging off early returns, they were right to move on from the guy and it may have been a mistake to bring him back.

 

[Foppa2118]

We aren't going to agree on the role players, but that is fine.

However, in terms of Bednar's system and him being flexible, I think he's made plenty of exceptions. While Barrie strengths fit into Bednar's system, he was given a longer leash and allowed to be creative with his defensive zone outlets. He's allowed Mackinnon and Landy to share the center responsibilities. In general, his system is pretty flexible in regards to trusting the players to make the right decision, whether that means the defenseman pinching, carrying the puck into the zone or chipping it in, etc. It's also why so many players have hit their potentials since joining the Avs (Bura, Nuke, Graves, MacDonald, Donskoi, to name a few). The root of Bednar's system is simply to allow players to play hockey and trust their instincts, with the caveat that they need to skate and put in effort to provide support in all three zones.

Also, a player that doesn't fit into a coach's system is not going to last long on the team, regardless of the coach. It creates confusion between the rest of the players on the ice because they don't know what that player is doing. They'll most likely perform worse. Look no further than Barrie and Babcock or Laine and Torterella. If a bunch of depth guys and Zadorov are your prime examples of players that didn't fit into Bednar's system, I think his system is pretty damn flexible.

Barrie being creative with his outlets isn't antithetical to Bednar's system. That is his system. He wants defenseman getting the puck and moving north with it quickly. He doesn't care if they get creative with it.

Same with Landy covering for his center. That's how pretty much all teams play now and Landy is really good at it. He's also bette than Nate at face-offs.

The root of Bednar's system isn't to trust their instincts. It's the opposite of that in most cases. If that was his system, then he'd let Z run all over the ice making hits, and the same with the forwards.

But he doesn't do that. He does the opposite. He wants his forwards skating their ass off to pressure puck carriers, and instead of finishing their checks, most of the time he wants them doing a flyby so they can skate their ass off to pressure the next puck carrier.

For defenseman, he wants guys immediately getting the puck out of the D zone when they have it, and for more defensive guys like Zadorov, Graves, and Nemeth, he wants them staying in position, rather than aggressively looking for big hits that can lead to odd man rushes, or dangerous scoring chances.

The reason there aren't more example of players being jettisoned from the Avs, is because after that first season, Sakic has ONLY brought in guys that can play how Bednar wants.

Whipping boys for this board like Jost and Compher are examples of guys that many people here would have scratched or gotten rid of a long time ago. But they play the details of Bednar's system the way he wants, so they stay in the lineup.

 

[Foppa2118]

And like I said, there's a reason he was on a short leash, but I also don't think Z was not put in a position to succeed--quite the opposite. He was given a top-four role, paired with the team's two best defensemen at the time, and also deployed in a manner that best benefited his skill set. It wasn't until later that Bednar finally had had enough and relegated him to the third pairing for that final season. Bednar also continued to count on him to kill penalties even though Zadorov is absolutely abominable at it.

And yes I think Bednar is flexible with his system. He made it work for the most part with a guy like Soderberg who absolutely did not fit what the coach wanted to do, a slow dump-and-chase guy as opposed to someone with speed and skill making controlled exits and entries. But he counted on Soda for a ton of minutes and a major role for most of two seasons. Judging off early returns, they were right to move on from the guy and it may have been a mistake to bring him back.

Bednar used Zadorov on the PK because he didn't have any better options.

Soderberg isn't a good example of Bednar being flexible. He's not super fast, but he gets to where he needs to be, and more importantly he's good at the details of Bednar's system. He's good at hounding puck carriers and keeping his feet moving. That's what he wants.

Bednar doesn't care if you're a perfect player, he just wants you to play the way he wants. That's why he keeps Jost and Compher in the lineup when they struggle. That's why he likes Soda. That's why he likes Nuke even when he's not scoring. That's why he was obsessed with Ben Street early on, etc.

 

[henchman21]

Zadorov's issues here were not system based. Z was/is just a dummy. If he had half the hockey IQ of G, he would have been a great top pairing defensemen... but he's a classic case of all the tools, no toolbox.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm not sure why this conversation has shifted to what Zadorov's issues are. Feels like we can't lose an opportunity to call him a dummy for like the millionth time.

 

[Barklez]

Sheldon Dries, and to a lesser extent Megna, getting regular opportunities with the big club should be plenty of evidence for the Bednar prefers guys that play his system argument.

 

[henchman21]

Sheldon Dries, and to a lesser extent Megna, getting regular opportunities with the big club should be plenty of evidence for the Bednar prefers guys that play his system argument.

Nope… Bednar gives plenty of opportunities to young players. They play well, they get minutes. They play like shit, they don’t stay up.

 

[Barklez]

Nope… Bednar gives plenty of opportunities to young players. They play well, they get minutes. They play like shit, they don’t stay up.

Yes but he repeatedly plays Dries and Megna year after year. Guys get chances, but those two stick like feathers in tar for some reason (hint, it’s not skill).

Edit: Might not beat your reply, but they show well because they play within his system. And I’d argue that most of the time Dries doesn’t show well, he just fits the system.

 

[henchman21]

Yes but he repeatedly plays Dries and Megna year after year. Guys get chances, but those two stick like feathers in tar for some reason (hint, it’s not skill).

Edit: Might not beat your reply, but they show well because they play within his system. And I’d argue that most of the time Dries doesn’t show well, he just fits the system.

He plays them because they play well enough… and others don’t. Bednar has faults, but favoritism for AHL guys isn’t one. Sherwood who has never been with the Avs prior to this season has stuck more than Dries or Megna… the idea he likes the same randos doesn’t fit with how Bednar coaches. It isn’t system it is quality. Dries sticking around the Avs org is on Sakic and Billington.

 

[Barklez]

He plays them because they play well enough… and others don’t. Bednar has faults, but favoritism for AHL guys isn’t one. Sherwood who has never been with the Avs prior to this season has stuck more than Dries or Megna… the idea he likes the same randos doesn’t fit with how Bednar coaches. It isn’t system it is quality. Dries sticking around the Avs org is on Sakic and Billington.

I’m not trying to make a point about those guys specifically, Sherwood is another guy that fits Bednar’s system and has shown well. Unsurprisingly he has seen the majority of opportunities lately rather than the other two.

Kaut hasn’t played well in the system and continues to get sent back down to the Eagles.

Newhook in one game showed more adherence to the system than numerous others that have come and gone from the lineup over the years and has been used accordingly. Is he getting his look because of his pedigree? Maybe, but he also plays with the discipline to thrive in Bednar’s system.

The guys that play well, generally are playing within/to the strengths of the system. It’s the furthest thing from favouritism, it’s a meritocracy and the guys that fit and play within the system have success and stick around.

 

[henchman21]

I’m not trying to make a point about those guys specifically, Sherwood is another guy that fits Bednar’s system and has shown well. Unsurprisingly he has seen the majority of opportunities lately rather than the other two.

Kaut hasn’t played well in the system and continues to get sent back down to the Eagles.

Newhook in one game showed more adherence to the system than numerous others that have come and gone from the lineup over the years and has been used accordingly. Is he getting his look because of his pedigree? Maybe, but he also plays with the discipline to thrive in Bednar’s system.

The guys that play well, generally are playing within/to the strengths of the system. It’s the furthest thing from favouritism, it’s a meritocracy and the guys that fit and play within the system have success and stick around.

I think you’re confusing fit within the system to just playing well. Kaut fit well last year, but this year didn’t? More likely he just didn’t play well. Same with Dries getting time in years past but being passed by new random players. How well a player plays is more important than fit. Of course to play in a Bednar system it requires effort and skating, but even if you’re not a great skater try (without penalties) and you’re likely to do well. Low effort in any system is ripe to get sent down.

 

[Foppa2118]

Nope… Bednar gives plenty of opportunities to young players. They play well, they get minutes. They play like shit, they don’t stay up.

Not playing his system the way he wants = playing like shit in Bednar's book.

Kaut is a good example @Barklez. He doesn't always hustle and hound puck carriers with the Avs. If he did that more, Bednar would stop demoting him and he'd stick in the lineup.

It doesn't matter if Kaut scores or not. Look how much Bednar has trusted Jost to stay in the lineup over the years in comparison. It's because he's good at the details of the game defensively and he hounds puck carriers.

 

[Barklez]

I think you’re confusing fit within the system to just playing well. Kaut fit well last year, but this year didn’t? More likely he just didn’t play well. Same with Dries getting time in years past but being passed by new random players. How well a player plays is more important than fit. Of course to play in a Bednar system it requires effort and skating, but even if you’re not a great skater try (without penalties) and you’re likely to do well. Low effort in any system is ripe to get sent down.

I would say yes. It just so happens that hustle is a core tenant of Bednar’s system.

I can’t recall Dries ever playing “well”. He’s never been terrible and he always busts his ass and sticks to the system so he sticks around.

I agree it has more to do with how well the guys play but I disagree that that is disconnected from how well they fit in Bednar’s system.

The guys that don’t mesh well in the system play poorly and either go back to the Eagles or are moved on.

In your opinion, how many examples of guys playing well but not fitting the system have been regulars on the roster in the last two years?

 

[Foppa2118]

Sheldon Dries, and to a lesser extent Megna, getting regular opportunities with the big club should be plenty of evidence for the Bednar prefers guys that play his system argument.

As opposed to Greer, who like Zadorov wanted to be a seek and destroy type of player, because that's how he always played.

Landy is the opposite of that. He adjusted his game to fit Bednar's system, and be much less physical and do more flybys, so he can be in position to continually chase down the puck carrier, hoping to force them into mistakes.

 

[Pokecheque]

Not playing his system the way he wants = playing like shit in Bednar's book.

Kaut is a good example @Barklez. He doesn't always hustle and hound puck carriers with the Avs. If he did that more, Bednar would stop demoting him and he'd stick in the lineup.

It doesn't matter if Kaut scores or not. Look how much Bednar has trusted Jost to stay in the lineup over the years in comparison. It's because he's good at the details of the game defensively and he hounds puck carriers.

I don’t think that’s the same thing. Even when Jost was not putting it together he was still playing well defensively.

Don’t love the way they’ve used Kaut at all this season but admittedly he has not looked good out there.

 

[PAZ]

Not playing his system the way he wants = playing like shit in Bednar's book.

Kaut is a good example @Barklez. He doesn't always hustle and hound puck carriers with the Avs. If he did that more, Bednar would stop demoting him and he'd stick in the lineup.

It doesn't matter if Kaut scores or not. Look how much Bednar has trusted Jost to stay in the lineup over the years in comparison. It's because he's good at the details of the game defensively and he hounds puck carriers.

It's not just hustling and hounding puck carriers, it's about being effective in a role. However, effort and hustle are the two easiest traits that every player could have, and it creates pressure and turnovers. This year Kaut didn't create any scoring opportunities, didn't hustle, didn't play physical, didn't make any nice plays. He wasn't noticeable in the slightest, which is not a good sign if you're trying to earn a spot on the team. He was worse than Sherwood in his call-up.

If two players are equal in everything, except for one player hustles and always puts out effort which in turn leads to more pressure, why would you not play the player that objectively playing better? I don't get it. Bednar gives opportunities to players that deserve it, and demotes those that do not. For role players, it's a pretty fair ask for them to put in effort if they want to stay up.

If a player is talented enough (looking at you, Kadri), they stay in the lineup even if they aren't always hustling or putting in effort. He lets those players work through their issues.

 

[Foppa2118]

It's not just hustling and hounding puck carriers, it's about being effective in a role. However, effort and hustle are the two easiest traits that every player could have, and it creates pressure and turnovers. This year Kaut didn't create any scoring opportunities, didn't hustle, didn't play physical, didn't make any nice plays. He wasn't noticeable in the slightest, which is not a good sign if you're trying to earn a spot on the team. He was worse than Sherwood in his call-up.

If two players are equal in everything, except for one player hustles and always puts out effort which in turn leads to more pressure, why would you not play the player that objectively playing better? I don't get it. Bednar gives opportunities to players that deserve it, and demotes those that do not. For role players, it's a pretty fair ask for them to put in effort if they want to stay up.

If a player is talented enough (looking at you, Kadri), they stay in the lineup even if they aren't always hustling or putting in effort. He lets those players work through their issues.

Yes but that's like saying, if all things are equal, then the coach is just gonna pick the better skater.

Skating is important for all teams, just like hustling and aggressively hounding puck carriers is, but there are coaches and teams like Bednar with the Avs, who place a much higher emphasis on things like skating, as well as hustling and hounding puck carriers.

Kadri still puts in the work to track puck carriers and play Bednar's system the way he wants. Just look at how much less physical he is with the Avs. It's the same with Landy. These guys adjusted their game for Bednar. Guys like Greer and Zadorov did not.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don’t think that’s the same thing. Even when Jost was not putting it together he was still playing well defensively.

Don’t love the way they’ve used Kaut at all this season but admittedly he has not looked good out there.

I agree, but that's why Jost stayed in the lineup. He plays well defensively, which for Bednar involves hustling and hounding puck carriers, to create turnovers and stifle a team's transition game.

 

[Pokecheque]

I agree, but that's why Jost stayed in the lineup. He plays well defensively, which for Bednar involves hustling and hounding puck carriers, to create turnovers and stifle a team's transition game.

Still disagree. Because if failure to do those things resulted in otherwise good players getting the boot, then Saad would’ve fizzled out a while ago. I think in most cases when the Avs move on from a player, he just wasn’t a good player anymore. Or never was in the first place.

If Bednar has a blind spot—and all coaches do unfortunately—it’s Compher. He just refuses to believe the guy is a one-dimensional 4th line scrub. Maybe because he tends to work hard, though I’d argue he sure has looked disengaged this season.

 

[Nihiliste]

Honestly it’s hard to argue with Bednar’s results. He feeds minutes to a lot of young guys, so he’s obviously open to playing Kaut if Kaut can deliver what he needs. Hopefully Kaut adjusts and makes an impact next year

 

[John Mandalorian]

Still disagree. Because if failure to do those things resulted in otherwise good players getting the boot, then Saad would’ve fizzled out a while ago. I think in most cases when the Avs move on from a player, he just wasn’t a good player anymore. Or never was in the first place.

If Bednar has a blind spot—and all coaches do unfortunately—it’s Compher. He just refuses to believe the guy is a one-dimensional 4th line scrub. Maybe because he tends to work hard, though I’d argue he sure has looked disengaged this season.

If Compher had the same contract as the AHL guys, do you think he’d be more willing to demote him?

 

[Pokecheque]

If Compher had the same contract as the AHL guys, do you think he’d be more willing to demote him?

I’m not sure. To be fair, even Bednar appears to be tiring of Compher’s indifferent play. It’s not that long ago that he swapped him out for effing Sherwood so who knows.

I think he came pretty close to being a press box occupant prior to his injury and then had a nice resurgence upon his return as a fourth liner, but now he just looks like he’s going through the motions again. Didn’t like him on that line with Newhook and Burakovsky at all.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I’m not sure. To be fair, even Bednar appears to be tiring of Compher’s indifferent play. It’s not that long ago that he swapped him out for effing Sherwood so who knows.

I think he came pretty close to being a press box occupant prior to his injury and then had a nice resurgence upon his return as a fourth liner, but now he just looks like he’s going through the motions again. Didn’t like him on that line with Newhook and Burakovsky at all.

Something weird that I’ve noticed is that the media has asked pointed questions about a couple of players underperforming: Compher and Kadri. Soon after each was demoted.

I think maybe Bednar has the flexibility to only go so far. If he goes too far he might diminish their trade value. So I think the Avs try to tip toe past the grave yard in situations like this hoping guys will fight their way out of it. But once the media starts asking questions, they anticipate there will be too much noise if the player continues to struggle.

 

[PowerMac]

So Bednar's system is all about applying pressure to the puck carrier to create turnovers? It sure doesn't seem very effective at that then considering this team gets very few of those and is usually having to attack defenses that are already set up and waiting for them instead of odd number breaks in transition. Based on this site, the avs takeaway numbers rank in the bottom third of the nhl despite all their speed and effort. I would really like it if the avs could create more transition opportunities because it's much easier to score that way, right now it seems like the team does a lot of work for not much reward. When they do score a lot, it's usually because they were able to come at the other team in such waves that it broke them. It felt like we got a lot more transition opportunities when Roy was coach.

Another thing I noticed is that it seems like our players are always getting out numbered in puck battles. The other team will be sending 4 guys while the avs try to fend them off with 2 or 3 while the other guys stand there watching even in our own defensive zone.

Here Jost does a good job of winning the puck back but then is immediately surrounded by 2 if not 3 blues players IN HIS OWN ZONE and is forced to give the puck back while all his teammates stand around watching. Girard just watches his guy go and stands in front of the net guarding nobody like he usually does. If the scheme is supposed to be good shouldn't your team have the numbers advantage?