World Cup: 2019 FIFA Women's World Cup - III (USA wins 4th Womens World Cup)

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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That raises a question in my mind - how many times in the men's World Cup has one player celebrated a goal with a celebration that mocked a stereotypical 'characteristic' of the opposition's country?

I'm assuming that's what Morgan was doing, rather than conflating a football game with the War of Independence, an event that led to tens of thousands of deaths, mass displacements of people and the usual war crimes. I'd consider the latter behaviour as every bit as crass and contemptible (to say nothing of disgustingly self-aggrandising) as those English fans who can't meet foreigners without rolling out one war or another that they only experienced from the safety of their imaginations. (And which I'm happy for North Americans on this site to condemn. Which they regularly do).

The two factors at play are:
A). What Morgan said the celebration meant (the Sophie Turner thing, and Sophie Turner loved it; I don’t really know who Sophie Turner is, so I can’t really speak to the claim, but the explanation sounds plausible).

B). The England manager going off before the game on American arrogance for the heinous crime of US operations staff doing their jobs.

When your opponent criticizes you before the match (with something ridiculous), throwing it in that person’s face is fair game.


Which, while it manifestly goes far beyond mocking the idea that all British people are genteel tea-sippers, still falls within the category of bizarre behaviour towards other countries that I'd say sits uneasily with the celebration of diversity I presume the US women's team would declare themselves fully signed up to.

I wouldn’t call referencing ‘tea drinking’ as a racist act. Of course, I call my English friend “Captain Crumpet” and he calls me a very English but very different C-word all the time; so maybe I’m not the best person to ask.


Another question is, should we limit the discussion to World Cups alone?

I ask because Nicolas Anelka's career in England was finished as a result of a goal celebration that was deemed racist.
Go way back, and Brian Clough once substituted a young Roy Keane for celebrating a Nottingham Forest goal against Newcastle by swearing at the away fans.
Adebayor's celebration after scoring for Manchester City against Arsenal provoked a storm.
And then you have Paul Gascoigne's contribution to Old Firm relations.
And going beyond football, the Carolina Hurricanes.
(If I scored in a World Cup semi-final, I'd go the full Marco Tardelli).

The Adebayor celly was the only one I could remember. I thought that was awesome, but I’m a City fan. Personal beef with old club.
And everyone mocked Don Cherry and sided with the Canes after the “Bunch of Jerks” comment.

Imagine if the Hurricanes STOPPED the Storm Surges after Cherry’s comments. Do people really expect the US team to stop celebrating goals?

I just YouTube Marco Tardelli, and I totally agree. (BTW, four of the Thai blowout goals were “First Career World Cup Goals”)


My feeling on the matter is “Did you commit your entire life to working so hard you could reach the achievement of taking the field in a World Cup, and THEN score a goal? No? Then shut up.”

Out of about 9 billion people who’ve lived in the last century, about 1,600 humans have scored a World Cup goal. And only 373 Women.

They’ve earned the right to celebrate that in any way they see fit.
 

KevFu

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But enough of ridiculous things....


FIFA wants to expand the WWC from 24 to 32, and double the prize money (So it will be 1/6th of the men's prize instead of 1/10th!)

Which means:
A. More Group stage blowouts for the top 5 teams, so more controversy, yay!
B. It's about time FIFA proactively recognizes the growth of the women's game.
 

Uncle Rotter

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May 11, 2010
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That's kind of their point. If a men's team did it, you wouldn't find it so classless.

When Germany beat Brazil 7-1 in 2014, they celebrated every single goal and they were whining and complaining to the refs about Brazil's goal, despite being up 7-0. Every single point of discussion was about the machine-like dismantling of Brazil (because it was Brazil). But because the USWNT does it to Thailand (who's definitely not Brazil), it's about the celebrations and not the dismantling (Even though Thailand wasn't rated the worst team in the group).
Yeah, those celebrations were really, uh, extravagant.

 
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koyvoo

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Nov 8, 2014
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Yeah, those celebrations were really, uh, extravagant.


Yes, I was gonna say. They were very muted after breaking the game open so wide. And this was in a semifinal vs the home team who is a historical World Cup juggernaut, not a group game vs a minnow of the game.
 
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Sep 19, 2008
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That's kind of their point. If a men's team did it, you wouldn't find it so classless.

When Germany beat Brazil 7-1 in 2014, they celebrated every single goal and they were whining and complaining to the refs about Brazil's goal, despite being up 7-0. Every single point of discussion was about the machine-like dismantling of Brazil (because it was Brazil). But because the USWNT does it to Thailand (who's definitely not Brazil), it's about the celebrations and not the dismantling (Even though Thailand wasn't rated the worst team in the group).

When Chile beat Mexico 7-0 in Copa America, Chile celebrated every goal and no one said anything. The closest thing to a controversy was the annual one about Mexico fans’ goal kick slur -- which the Mexico fans turned on their own team in the final 20 minutes while getting blown out.


MLB's moving away from the old unwritten rules on home run celebrating/watching, with a "Let the kids play" slogan. (And Jose Bautista had the most over the top baseball HR celly ever, and IT. WAS. AWESOME). The rest of sports has switched from "Everyone being mad at Max Muncy for watching his home run" to "everyone jumped all over Madison Bumgarner FOR BEING MAD at Max Muncy." Baseball's viewpoint has changed to "if you don't want a guy to watch his homerun, don't let him hit it into the ocean."

Something the Thai women understand: They weren't offended by the celebrations or running up the score. "In football, everybody is following the rules, so our opponent is trying their best. The US team was very good. We don't have any excuse and we accept that they are better.”


The US Women are acting like all the men's athletes of the world, and all kinds of people are saying they're not supposed to. Men brag, ladies do not. That's the double-standard that's rooted in sexism.

This whole stupid debate is the last remnants of “women belong in the kitchen.” No one would actually SAY THAT now on TV, but the centuries of that mindset haven’t completely eroded so the subconscious thought of “Something is wrong with this” manifests itself by looking for any possible thing to be upset about.

It’s silly.
This should be pasted every time an idiot wants to whine about decorum and class in sports or how Americans shouldn't celebrate goals by sipping tea. Very excellent post.
 

Rob

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So we're Morgan's celebrations. No different.

the only over-the-top celebration was Rapinoe's.

Really? As proven in the video posted Germany’s celebrations against Brazil in a World Cup semi-final were more muted than USWNT against minnow Thailand. So your analogy failed.
 
Sep 19, 2008
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I do love the irony in the English media calling the Americans arrogant.
The English media is one of the worst libelists, stalker heavy and most frivolous medias in the world. One major reason why I frequently hope for the failure of English national football clubs
 

Lepardi

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Jan 1, 2008
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For what it’s worth, that wasn’t actually the problem. Here it is:




I think these are valid complaints. It’s not that there wasn’t Uber, period. It’s that there was no transportation, Uber included.


You shouldn't expect the French to be able to organize an event like this. When we went to Eurobasket 2015 in Montpellier, there were approximately three taxis in the entire city to serve the thousands of basketball fans from Finland. The organizing at Euro 2016 was an absolute joke too. The people working at the concession stands were hopelessly slow, finding the ticket collection point at Stade de France was a nightmare with all the street closures and clueless volunteers pointing you to the wrong direction, etc. Plenty of people missed kickoff due to this. When they told us to calm down and that we should have gotten there earlier, a guy with native-level English absolutely erupted: "Shut the f up. I was at the stadium over an hour before kickoff but it took me 45 minutes just to find this place cause there are no directions anywhere."

Have Germany organize the tournament and I bet it'll look a lot different.
 
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Lepardi

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Just watched a middle aged English woman with a black eye tell a Finnish(?) TV crew in Brooklyn that the refs were "****ing ****e" last night.

She also said that the ref is probably interested in a Green Card. That might explain the desire to favor the US.
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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Yeah, those celebrations were really, uh, extravagant.



I saw the video before I posted the original comment about Germany celebrating. They're no different than any USA woman who had previously scored a WC goal, except Rapinoe.

USA 5-6-7-8 and 12 and 11 are just “trot a couple steps and get hugged by your teammate.” There was some jumping into each other’s arms on occasion, which are no different than Germany’s 5th goal vs Brazil.

USA’s 10th is Morgan again, she takes a couple trots and flicks her fingers because she can’t believe how many she’s scored. Number 11 is Pugh’s first career WC goal, she spreads her arms wide and runs a bit faster to people to get hugs.... Not that different from Germany’s 5th, Khedera (sp), point up with both hands Daniel Bryant style as he trots.

There's just six more than Germany had, but they're all the same ilk, except Rapinoe.
 
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YNWA14

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Dec 29, 2010
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Clearly the whole rest of the world is crazy and the US fans and teams are a beacon of hope, truth, integrity and all that the world should strive to be. Let's let this discussion die since people on either side (US vs everyone else) never change their stance.
 
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Stray Wasp

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My feeling on the matter is “Did you commit your entire life to working so hard you could reach the achievement of taking the field in a World Cup, and THEN score a goal? No? Then shut up.”

Out of about 9 billion people who’ve lived in the last century, about 1,600 humans have scored a World Cup goal. And only 373 Women.

They’ve earned the right to celebrate that in any way they see fit.

Any way they see fit that doesn't bring the sport into disrepute, I'd say.

And while Morgan's celebration isn't bringing the sport into disrepute in my book, I repeat I can't remember anyone scoring against another country and mocking them, even in the mildest way. (I note that despite my asking, no one else has produced another example).

Which makes for an odd precedent. Because now we're saying, 'It's OK to score, and mock characteristics of other people's countries, as long as it's a pretty innocuous characteristic.'

Which, if this type of celebration catches on, will cause all kinds of otherwise very avoidable hassle.

Two of the most politically charged games that leap to mind between men's teams are Argentina-England in 1986 and Iran-USA in 1998. In both cases, the winners made absolutely no attempt to wind their opponents up on the field when they scored. Which becomes all the more remarkable when you consider the involvement of Diego Maradona at the heart of the former game.
 
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Stray Wasp

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Putting Morgan's celebration in the same stratosphere as Anelka's quenelle is a level of insanity that I honestly can't even comprehend.

You won't need comprehend it if you reread my post more carefully.

Which reminds me - Paolo di Canio is someone else who was punished for controversial goal celebrations. Albeit not enough.

And I'll not bother exploring the world of 'celebration by revealing message scrawled across T-shirt.'
 

Stray Wasp

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The US Women are acting like all the men's athletes of the world, and all kinds of people are saying they're not supposed to. Men brag, ladies do not. That's the double-standard that's rooted in sexism.

This whole stupid debate is the last remnants of “women belong in the kitchen.” No one would actually SAY THAT now on TV, but the centuries of that mindset haven’t completely eroded so the subconscious thought of “Something is wrong with this” manifests itself by looking for any possible thing to be upset about.

It’s silly.

'All,' you say?

Here's Gotze's men's World Cup final winner from 2014.

Eder in the 2016 Euros.

I think these celebrations are spontaneous expressions of joy, rather than bragging.

The idea that no one ever criticises men for their goal celebrations is laughable. In this very forum, Ronaldo in the 2014 European Cup final, as well as Griezmann's puerile dance (repeated ad nauseam), leap to mind.
 

Stray Wasp

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The whole thing is hilarious to me. They’re not MAGA so they’re hated by so many Americans. They’re too arrogant and American for Europeans and Canadians.

They’re in a nasty battle with the American FA over pay.

They’re coming off their keeper being forced out and then going on national tv and trashing the manager and players. Most of the media discussing if they’re still good enough or too old.

They’re in a country in the midst of a stupid nationalistic wave where the ruling party have signaled that for many of them, people like them are not welcome.

Their “attitude” is much more of a **** you to Americans than anyone else. But yet here we are, where members of the HF board feel personally attacked.

Ironically, when Rapinoe responded to the reaction about Morgan's celebration by saying, 'Wah, wah, wah', it struck me as the sort of thing the President might say.
 
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Stray Wasp

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Anyway, while I didn't bother with yesterday's game it was pleasing to note Asllani clearly suffered no serious after-effects from her semi-final injury.

I won't be watching the final as it happens. By the time I do come around to seeing it, I expect the USA will have won. Hopefully the Netherlands will take a leaf out of Croatia's book in the 2018 men's final, and manage to contribute despite having played extra time in the semis.
 
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East Coast Bias

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Ironically, when Rapinoe responded to the reaction about Morgan's celebration by saying, 'Wah, wah, wah', it struck me as the sort of thing the President might say.

Reacting to criticism over a celebration of TEA. To a charge of outrage led by Piers Morgan and the like.

She should have done a fortnite dance and been respectful like a true modern day footballer.
 
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