Rumor: 2019-2020 Trade Rumours and Free Agent Discussion Version 7 | Post-Deadline Ed.

[PAZ]

There will be flaws with the latest iteration of the Avs as well. No team is going to patch all the holes in a given roster, the cap effectively ensures that. It just would've been a very different type of team, that's all.

I think we can look at it both ways--we can see the good that came out of a decade of failure, and also be critical of that decade of failure.

Oh 100%, but the main difference is that we have way more assets to try to improve the team and fix those flaws. With the previous core, even if we had a bit better drafting and didn't sign a bunch of washed up vets, we still had very little in our pipeline or expendable talent.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

MVP doesn’t go to defensemen in today’s NHL... but Jones is arguably the best defensemen in the world today. Definitely top 3. MacK isn’t the best forward in the world, but is in the argument for top 3. Both are elite players of similar calibers. It isn’t about one being better than the other, but how the teams could be built around them.

Personally, I think MacKinnon is a more impactful player than Jones.

I also believe that this current roster and prospect system is better than what it would have been under the alternate reality we’re talking about.

Hell, Makar might end up being better than Jones on his own, let alone having all of Girard/Timmins/Byram.

 

[Pokecheque]

I don’t know, they would have been good, but I don’t think contenders. They would have stayed afloat longer, but would not be as good as they are now.

Jones is great, MacKinnon is a MVP caliber player.

I'd argue that Ryan O'Reilly a little under a year ago won the Cup with a core that was (very arguably) worse than the projected one we're talking about. IMO Jones is better than Pietrangelo. Also younger. "Contender" is a relative term.

I can't say the team would've been better or worse off than they are now, that's kinda beside the point. It just would've been a very different team.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I'd argue that Ryan O'Reilly a little under a year ago won the Cup with a core that was (very arguably) worse than the projected one we're talking about. IMO Jones is better than Pietrangelo. Also younger. "Contender" is a relative term.

I can't say the team would've been better or worse off than they are now, that's kinda beside the point. It just would've been a very different team.

In not sure how the length of the contender window is ambiguous at all. The Centres on that team would have been older than MacKinnon/Rantanen/Makar are now.

The reality is that this group is just getting started and they haven’t even hit their peak yet.

 

[Chiarelli]

In a vacuum I would much rather watch makar mackinnon hockey than oreilly jones hockey.

The team identity had always been speed and skill im glad we went with Mack the whole team would likely be structured differently around those players and I know Columbus and St. Louis hockey is about as boring as it gets for me. Winning makes any style passable tho.

 

[henchman21]

Personally, I think MacKinnon is a more impactful player than Jones.

I also believe that this current roster and prospect system is better than what it would have been under the alternate reality we’re talking about.

Hell, Makar might end up being better than Jones on his own, let alone having all of Girard/Timmins/Byram.

I disagree... I think at their best, defensemen impact the game at a higher overall level than forwards. MacK is fantastic offensively and an incredible impact player on that end of the ice. His defense is getting better, but still below average. Jones controls the game at both ends of the ice at an elite level... and does so for 25 minutes a game in all areas.

Sure Makar could be... but Jones is arguably the best defensemen in the league right now. Makar has a number of steps to go to prove himself and get there.

I'd argue that Ryan O'Reilly a little under a year ago won the Cup with a core that was (very arguably) worse than the projected one we're talking about. IMO Jones is better than Pietrangelo. Also younger. "Contender" is a relative term.

I can't say the team would've been better or worse off than they are now, that's kinda beside the point. It just would've been a very different team.

Yup, ROR lead a team worse than we are talking about to the Cup. Surely it would be different, and I'd say the theoretical team we are talking about would be nearing the end of their window. It would have been a 2015-2021 sort of window organization. Right now grasping at the last straws of it and figuring out how to extend the window. Right now we are looking at a team opening their window in 19-20 that could reasonably end in 22-23 or could reasonably extend to 24-25. Sameish length, different years.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I disagree... I think at their best, defensemen impact the game at a higher overall level than forwards. MacK is fantastic offensively and an incredible impact player on that end of the ice. His defense is getting better, but still below average. Jones controls the game at both ends of the ice at an elite level... and does so for 25 minutes a game in all areas.

Sure Makar could be... but Jones is arguably the best defensemen in the league right now. Makar has a number of steps to go to prove himself and get there.



Yup, ROR lead a team worse than we are talking about to the Cup. Surely it would be different, and I'd say the theoretical team we are talking about would be nearing the end of their window. It would have been a 2015-2021 sort of window organization. Right now grasping at the last straws of it and figuring out how to extend the window. Right now we are looking at a team opening their window in 19-20 that could reasonably end in 22-23 or could reasonably extend to 24-25. Sameish length, different years.

Why do you think the window for that group would of started so quickly? Jones didn’t break out until 2016-2017.

And you believe this group could potentially be done contending by 2022-2023? Come on. If you’re anticipating a drop off from MacKinnon and Rantanen, you’re not factoring the growth of Makar/Girard/Byram/Timmins/Kaut/Newhook.

It seems like a very pessimistic view to me.

 

[henchman21]

Why do you think the window for that group would of started so quickly? Jones didn’t break out until 2016-2017.

And you believe this group could potentially be done contending by 2022-2023? Come on. If you’re anticipating a drop off from MacKinnon and Rantanen, you’re not factoring the growth of Makar/Girard/Byram/Timmins/Kaut/Newhook.

It seems like a very pessimistic view to me.

Jones broke out the second he left Nashville. I think he would have done it sooner if he wasn't buried on that defense. He stepped in right away and was a #1D for Columbus day one. I know Columbus is small market and people don't watch them as much, but he's been elite his whole tenure there.

MacK won't drop off by 22-23, but the cap situation will be much trickier to navigate right after that season. That gets greatly compounded in the summer of 2025 when Rants is up for his next deal. And I do expect regression in MacKinnon's game when he crosses 30. His game is built on speed... and as we have see before not only do injuries add up, but the game is getting faster and faster. Contending past 2025 is going to be a real chore with this group.

If the Avs contend from now until 2025, I think we should all be thrilled. That is an eternity in the hockey world.

 

[PAZ]

Jones broke out the second he left Nashville. I think he would have done it sooner if he wasn't buried on that defense. He stepped in right away and was a #1D for Columbus day one. I know Columbus is small market and people don't watch them as much, but he's been elite his whole tenure there.

MacK won't drop off by 22-23, but the cap situation will be much trickier to navigate right after that season. That gets greatly compounded in the summer of 2025 when Rants is up for his next deal. And I do expect regression in MacKinnon's game when he crosses 30. His game is built on speed... and as we have see before not only do injuries add up, but the game is getting faster and faster. Contending past 2025 is going to be a real chore with this group.

I think you are simplifying it a bit. His game relies on speed just as much as it relies on strength. He won't be able to completely blow past guys anymore, but his strength won't leave him and he's improved his skillset where he still should be a top 10-15 center by the time he's 30.

2025 I do expect we'll have to retool around that time. Whether or not we'll be successful will be another question, but if we are I don't see why we wouldn't be in a similar situation that Boston or Washington are in right now.

 

[henchman21]

I think you are simplifying it a bit. His game relies on speed just as much as it relies on strength. He won't be able to completely blow past guys anymore, but his strength won't leave him and he's improved his skillset where he still should be a top 10-15 center by the time he's 30.

2025 I do expect we'll have to retool around that time. Whether or not we'll be successful will be another question, but if we are I don't see why we wouldn't be in a similar situation that Boston or Washington are in right now.

Top 15 center is certainly a much different level of player than top 3 center. He's right there with Crosby, Malkin, and Matthews. ~15th best center is probably more in the Barzal range of player. That is the difference between a carry a team on their back sort, and one who needs surrounding cast. He's still going to be a good player, but he's going to be worse than he is now and will be paid at least double.

The Avs drafting will determine how successful they are down the line. Boston is one of the best drafting teams in the league, and they are willing to make bold aggressive moves around non-core players. They've had to re-tool a couple times on the fly with their core. Washington is also a really solid drafting team that I think got a bit lucky and they have a generational talent.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Jones broke out the second he left Nashville. I think he would have done it sooner if he wasn't buried on that defense. He stepped in right away and was a #1D for Columbus day one. I know Columbus is small market and people don't watch them as much, but he's been elite his whole tenure there.

MacK won't drop off by 22-23, but the cap situation will be much trickier to navigate right after that season. That gets greatly compounded in the summer of 2025 when Rants is up for his next deal. And I do expect regression in MacKinnon's game when he crosses 30. His game is built on speed... and as we have see before not only do injuries add up, but the game is getting faster and faster. Contending past 2025 is going to be a real chore with this group.

If the Avs contend from now until 2025, I think we should all be thrilled. That is an eternity in the hockey world.

Actually, I think we’re in more agreement here than I thought.

I think it’s reasonable to believe that the Avs will be a cup contender through the remainder of MacKinnon and Rantanen’s prime. So, I would put that at 5 years.

Now that doesn’t mean they can’t sneak up and grab a cup after that, but I expect a really good Avs team for the next 5 years.

Players like Makar/Girard/Byram/Newhook/Timmins, might extend the window depending on how good they become, but it’s hard to know right now.

 

[CB Joe]

I'm glad they didn't go Jones over MacKinnon. That would have been a mistake.

I think going defense over forward would have got the Avs to mediocre faster but I also think the Avs would be a worse team now and in the future if they went that way. It wasn't just the defense holding back the Avs, they lacked depth though out the line up and system.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I was really surprised not to see Seth Jones name in the recent players poll. Those polls always look similar to my lists (I still value older players who dominate but people think are no longer near the top like Crosby and Price). However I see Hedman as the only competition for Seth Jones as the best defenseman on the planet but Jones was nowhere to be seen.

my list.
1.(a) Jones
(b) Hedman
3. Josi

Then a major gap.

 

[Islay1989]

Roman Josi is nowhere near a top 3 D in the league.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Roman Josi is nowhere near a top 3 D in the league.

Oh

 

[Islay1989]

Oh

Sieve defensively, got exposed time and time again in the playoffs. And what on Earth does he have over guys like Carlson, Pietrangelo, Werenski, Suter, Slavin, McAvoy etc? All of them are far better defensively and are pretty damn offensively. As for Josi, he has taken the flag from OEL as the most absurdly overrated D in the league.

 

[Foppberg]

Sieve defensively, got exposed time and time again in the playoffs. And what on Earth does he have over guys like Carlson, Pietrangelo, Werenski, Suter, Slavin, McAvoy etc? All of them are far better defensively and are pretty damn offensively. As for Josi, he has taken the flag from OEL as the most absurdly overrated D in the league.

Lol

 

[The Abusement Park]

Sieve defensively, got exposed time and time again in the playoffs. And what on Earth does he have over guys like Carlson, Pietrangelo, Werenski, Suter, Slavin, McAvoy etc? All of them are far better defensively and are pretty damn offensively. As for Josi, he has taken the flag from OEL as the most absurdly overrated D in the league.

Huh.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I thoroughly enjoying reading absurd takes from ghost posters


Always adds a little more hilarious activity on the boards that day.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

On the topic of Dmen... It does seem like we've really had a shift in the last couple of years regarding guys at the top of the league though.


When you think of Top Dmen in the game... Even just 2-3 years ago those lists almost unanimously included the likes of Karlsson, Doughty, Hedman, Weber, Burns, Chara, Keith, Subban.


Almost an entirely different group of Defenders at the top now. Only Hedman, and Karlsson(IMO he's not done yet, down year this year but I think he comes back real strong for another 2-3 years) would still be in my Top 10 list and in DD and EK's cases they'd be lower than what they once were.



For shits and giggles I think my current Top 10 would look like this:


Hedman
Hamilton
Jones
Josi
Carlson
Makar
Hughes
Karlsson
Pietrangelo
Theodore



A couple controversial selections, some probably think putting Makar and Hughes on the list already as rookies is a bit much but I mean the numbers these two are putting up already are just ridiculous. The advanced stats for the two of them are phenomenal, and when you watch the games and see the impact they have on the game from the plays they are able to make... I think it's justified to have them in the Top 10 already. I actually think both guys are a tad ahead of Dahlin right now. But people often forget just how stupid young Dahlin is and I have no question by the time he's in his early 20's, he will be the best Dman in the NHL. Heiskanen is excellent as well, just outside this Top 10 for me and again in a year or two he will find himself in that group.

The other guy I have on this list most probably dont agree with his Shea Theodore... But I think he might be the most underrated Defender in the league right now. He has had a couple phenomenal seasons for the Knights and again you look at the numbers he's quietly put up in Vegas the last 2 years and for me, his impact is that one of the best Dmen in the league.



Impossible to really rank them in an exact 1-10 order for me... But in terms of tiers at least... Hedman is all on his own at the top right now. Hamilton, Jones, and Josi, and Carlson would be in a tier for the 2nd group. While the remaining 5 would be together in the 3rd tier, and realistically there's probably 2-3 more guys I'd have in that tier where I completely get an argument for them being a Top 10 guy for some folks(Heiskanen, Dahlin, Doughty to name a few).

 

[Murzu]

That's an interesting ranking. I personally don't value Hamilton or Theodore even close that highly. Other than that, it's list I can agree on. @Pierce Hawthorne

 

[McMetal]

I do think Josi is getting a little overrated here. Maybe based on his offense you could make a case for being fringe top 10, but top 3? That's just too high.

Jones though? I'm not sure I would say he is head and shoulders above everyone else, but best in the world is a case I could get behind. He is the prototypical #1D who does everything at a high level, with amazing consistency, while eating big minutes. If the Avs had drafted him I don't think we'd be sorry about it.

 

[Richard88]

I just made a roster on capfriendly for next season, featuring us signing Pietrangelo and trading for Rakell. Would love to hear some thoughts on it

Pietrangelo and Rakell - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[CB Joe]

I just made a roster on capfriendly for next season, featuring us signing Pietrangelo and trading for Rakell. Would love to hear some thoughts on it

Pietrangelo and Rakell - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Sick lineup. I think that lineup would make the Avs the team to beat. The trades don't seem outrageous.

I think you're cutting it a bit close to the cap. The numbers look a bit low on Nuke and Bura but not way off. I don't know if any team would take on Cole's contract without sending money back. Maybe Ottawa since his salary is lower than his caphit. If the Avs land Pietrangelo then Cole's and Johnson's contract do become problematic.

 

[Mighty Makar]

I think Doughty’s the best dman in hockey.