Speculation: 2019-2020 Sharks Roster Discussion Part 8

[Sysreq]

If Merkley hits even half his potential and we traded him before that, we will kick ourselves for it.

I understand he’s not untouchable, but he’s also someone, like Hertl used to be, that has more value to us then on the market. Now unlike hertl who had lowered external value because of injuries hampering his production early in his career, Merkley has lower value due to his “attitude”.

It’s make far more sense for us to hold onto him and hope he hits that’s potential. I honestly think he’s better than Heed right now. Next year he could be even better, and a bottom pairing of him and Ferraro sounds great to me. We can shelter them as needed too while saving 3 mil letting Dillon walk.

Also if he hits some of his potential, he could replace Burns a few years down the road if Burns starts to fade with age. If Merkley makes it, our D is potentially locked in for at the very least 3 years. Leaving DW to focus on getting the forwards as loaded as possible.

@JoeThorntonsRooster I too like the idea of getting Toffoli. He’s a hard nosed player that I think can regain some of his early career scoring with a change of scenery. If the price is right I’d totally like to snag him.

I just don’t think we have room in our system for him. Burns and Karlsson both play 25+ minutes a night. Merkley is simply not going to get the playtime he needs to develop here.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If Karlsson was 20lbs heavier it'd probably be muscle mass in his legs and he'd actually be a lot stronger and faster (his agility might be affected though). It's not coincidental, bigger bodies in the back can handle the rigors of getting hit retrieving pucks better than lightweight bodies.

There's no guarantee in that at all and it doesn't necessarily make you faster. If it's not coincidental then the reality that they're getting smaller means it isn't as required as people might think.

 

[Dicdonya]

I just don’t think we have room in our system for him. Burns and Karlsson both play 25+ minutes a night. Merkley is simply not going to get the playtime he needs to develop here.

This argument might make sense if Merkley was like a Makar, or Heiskenin or something. Someone who’s going to come in a play like he needs 20+ mins a night from the get go.

However IF Merkley is even ready to play against men next year, he is most likely going to be perfectly suited to getting 10mins a night with PP2 time while he learns to play against men.

In a year or three your point might be valid, but if he is commanding Burns or Karlsson level ice time in three years are you seriously wanting to keep a 37 year old Burns at 8 mil over a young 20s defenseman that probably will cost less than him?

Lastly if Merkley makes it, and is good enough to be demanding more ice time, he will be worth FAR more at that point than he is right now. That’s why I’m saying we wait. He might be worth a 2nd at this point based on his perceived attitude issues. In three years if he has succeeded at making the NHL and assuming that means he’s isn’t a prima donna in those years, he will have mostly shed his attitude issues and just be a young, skilled Pmd which would be worth a ton.

 

[matt trick]

This argument might make sense if Merkley was like a Makar, or Heiskenin or something. Someone who’s going to come in a play like he needs 20+ mins a night from the get go.

However IF Merkley is even ready to play against men next year, he is most likely going to be perfectly suited to getting 10mins a night with PP2 time while he learns to play against men.

In a year or three your point might be valid, but if he is commanding Burns or Karlsson level ice time in three years are you seriously wanting to keep a 37 year old Burns at 8 mil over a young 20s defenseman that probably will cost less than him?

Lastly if Merkley makes it, and is good enough to be demanding more ice time, he will be worth FAR more at that point than he is right now. That’s why I’m saying we wait. He might be worth a 2nd at this point based on his perceived attitude issues. In three years if he has succeeded at making the NHL and assuming that means he’s isn’t a prima donna in those years, he will have mostly shed his attitude issues and just be a young, skilled Pmd which would be worth a ton.

I think this is a pretty good summary, but I'd be disappointed in giving any d-man 10 minutes a night. Small difference, but I'd say if he's not getting 14-16, we really should have him on the roster. Puts to much pressure on Burns, Karlsson, Vlasic, and Simek.

 

[Herschel]

Couple thoughts on Merkley getting third-pair minutes.
- Doesn't provide the needed minutes to improve his defensive or system play, he would be better serviced playing 5-8 more minutes a night in the AHL.
- Playing 10 minutes is extremely difficult to adjust to and there have been many players that are just not able to do it.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Couple thoughts on Merkley getting third-pair minutes.
- Doesn't provide the needed minutes to improve his defensive or system play, he would be better serviced playing 5-8 more minutes a night in the AHL.
- Playing 10 minutes is extremely difficult to adjust to and there have been many players that are just not able to do it.

This isn't necessarily accurate. It will depend on where he is at at any given time but he can improve his defensive and system play getting only 15-18 minutes a night at the NHL level as opposed to 20 minutes at the AHL level. Heed may be getting that currently but that doesn't mean that Merkley will.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I just don’t think we have room in our system for him. Burns and Karlsson both play 25+ minutes a night. Merkley is simply not going to get the playtime he needs to develop here.

We all remember Justin Braun getting 25 minutes a night last year, right?

 

[Sysreq]

We all remember Justin Braun getting 25 minutes a night last year, right?

You mean when he would rotate between Burns, Dillion and Vlasic when Erik Karlsson was down and PDB didn’t trust Heed or Ryan to play against top-6 players?

I am almost 100% positive, Merkley isn’t going to be paired with Burns, and that he wouldn’t be leaned on for his veteran defensive acumen.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You mean when he would rotate between Burns, Dillion and Vlasic when Erik Karlsson was down and PDB didn’t trust Heed or Ryan to play against top-6 players?

I am almost 100% positive, Merkley isn’t going to be paired with Burns, and that he wouldn’t be leaned on for his veteran defensive acumen.

Probably not but the idea here is that Merkley earns his way into the lineup and would be given that trust. Otherwise, they probably would send him down to the AHL while he is waiver exempt. If he earns his way into the NHL lineup, they can absolutely find 17 minutes a night for him behind Burns and Karlsson even if they're similar players because you can scale back the amount of offensive situations that Burns and Karlsson is put in for Merkley so that they're fresher as the season wears on.

 

[Barrie22]

You mean when he would rotate between Burns, Dillion and Vlasic when Erik Karlsson was down and PDB didn’t trust Heed or Ryan to play against top-6 players?

I am almost 100% positive, Merkley isn’t going to be paired with Burns, and that he wouldn’t be leaned on for his veteran defensive acumen.

Not really. In the playoffs in which all defensemen were playing and healthy enough he averaged over 20 minutes a game.

 

[Pavelski2112]

I disagree, they were exposed for being too slow with their decision making. Their skating wasn’t elite but it wasn’t their issue. Pittsburgh skated circles around our whole team.

Polak's straight-line speed was respectable. He just couldn't do anything else with regards to skating ability.

 

[Juxtaposer]

You mean when he would rotate between Burns, Dillion and Vlasic when Erik Karlsson was down and PDB didn’t trust Heed or Ryan to play against top-6 players?

I am almost 100% positive, Merkley isn’t going to be paired with Burns, and that he wouldn’t be leaned on for his veteran defensive acumen.

Braun played 25 minutes a game on nights when Burns and Karlsson were completely healthy.

My only point is that if Merkley is good enough, he’ll get his minutes.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I disagree, they were exposed for being too slow with their decision making. Their skating wasn’t elite but it wasn’t their issue. Pittsburgh skated circles around our whole team.

Go back and look again. Pens players raced by the 2 of them repeatedly. They were slow... at skating. Especially Pollack. that dude looked like he was skating in quick sand in the final. I'm at a loss how this is even something to debate. It's pretty obvious that the pens boat raced the Sharks and especially that pairing.

 

[Internazionale]

Athanasiou is available. Would anyone else do Labanc straight up?

 

[do0glas]

Athanasiou is available. Would anyone else do Labanc straight up?

Nah cuz think labanc will be if hes not already a premiere powerplay specialist that's acceptable 5v5 and he will never command a top six salary.

 

[themelkman]

Athanasiou is available. Would anyone else do Labanc straight up?

Kind of defeats the purpose. Id rather package a pick and a prospect

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Athanasiou is available. Would anyone else do Labanc straight up?

Definitely not. I don't think I'd want Athanasiou at all but definitely not at the cost of Labanc.

 

[Herschel]

This isn't necessarily accurate. It will depend on where he is at at any given time but he can improve his defensive and system play getting only 15-18 minutes a night at the NHL level as opposed to 20 minutes at the AHL level. Heed may be getting that currently but that doesn't mean that Merkley will.

I would tend to agree that if his ice-time at the NHL is within 2-5 minutes a night of his AHL time but IMO the difference is likely to be more in the 5-10 minutes per game.

Merkley also doesn't seem to strike me as someone who is going to remain focused while he is stapled to the bench.

 

[STL Shark]

you can never have enough PMD in today’s NHL. If Merkley doesn’t make it because he’s not ready then so be it but to say he won’t or shouldn’t because he’s offensive minded when we have EK and Burns is not a good reason. It’s good to have balanced pairings. We saw what having two strong, physical defensive minded dmen on the same pairing did in 2016 vs Pittsburgh. Polak and Dillon couldn’t get the puck up ice and constantly turned it over. I can recall two goals off the top of my head.

Also, though I don’t like Deboer’s system he does have the offense run through his defense. Merkley when ready will be very effective.

Defensive minded and PMD aren't exclusive traits no matter how much hockey boards try to make them out to be that way. Ferraro is a PMD that plays a defense first game. If Merkley was defensively responsible and was not solely reliant on offense to be his calling card (i.e. was not a short underweight guy that makes consistent gaffes in his own end) then maybe I would be okay with it. That said, we know that for the next handful of years he will not be a better offensive D-Man than 88/65 and we know that he is underwhelming at best defensively. This isn't NHL 20 where you just roll out a bunch of skilled guys and say we are going to win every game 6-5. You have to build a team with guys that fill roles and the role that Merkley fits into (offensive D-Man and PP specialist) is currently a role that we have a pair of perennial all-stars filling right now.

I'm not sure that there is a lazier and more inept argument in the world than the "Dillon-Polak got torched in the playoffs so we should never worry about defensive D-Men" nonsense that gets uttered consistently on boards like this. The reason that pairing got torched had next to nothing to do with a defense first mentality and everything to do with Roman Polak being a horrendous skater and having no puck skills. No one is advocating for bringing in that type of player. Just simply stating that adding another PP specialist that gets lost in his own end while offering nothing of value on the PK is not exactly what this group needs more of given the current core and current issues we have seen the past 1.5 years.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I would tend to agree that if his ice-time at the NHL is within 2-5 minutes a night of his AHL time but IMO the difference is likely to be more in the 5-10 minutes per game.

Merkley also doesn't seem to strike me as someone who is going to remain focused while he is stapled to the bench.

If he plays with a considerable amount of inconsistency, I can see that being the case but chances are they will send him down for periods of time when that is happening while he is exempt from waivers.

 

[STL Shark]

Athanasiou is available. Would anyone else do Labanc straight up?

No and why would the two teams do it? Exchange forward for forward just for the hell of it? The goal is to acquire more top 9 forwards as opposed to simply flip one for another. If you asked if I would trade a D-Man and/or a prospect for him then yes I would do that.

 

[Szechwan]

What up with Labanc anyways? I expected a big year out of him to earn that next contract.

 

[WSS11]

Go back and look again. Pens players raced by the 2 of them repeatedly. They were slow... at skating. Especially Pollack. that dude looked like he was skating in quick sand in the final. I'm at a loss how this is even something to debate. It's pretty obvious that the pens boat raced the Sharks and especially that pairing.

I should have said main issue and I acknowledged that the whole team got torched. The biggest mismatch for the Sharks was the HBK line vs that pairing imo.

Defensive minded and PMD aren't exclusive traits no matter how much hockey boards try to make them out to be that way. Ferraro is a PMD that plays a defense first game. If Merkley was defensively responsible and was not solely reliant on offense to be his calling card (i.e. was not a short underweight guy that makes consistent gaffes in his own end) then maybe I would be okay with it. That said, we know that for the next handful of years he will not be a better offensive D-Man than 88/65 and we know that he is underwhelming at best defensively. This isn't NHL 20 where you just roll out a bunch of skilled guys and say we are going to win every game 6-5. You have to build a team with guys that fill roles and the role that Merkley fits into (offensive D-Man and PP specialist) is currently a role that we have a pair of perennial all-stars filling right now.

I'm not sure that there is a lazier and more inept argument in the world than the "Dillon-Polak got torched in the playoffs so we should never worry about defensive D-Men" nonsense that gets uttered consistently on boards like this. The reason that pairing got torched had next to nothing to do with a defense first mentality and everything to do with Roman Polak being a horrendous skater and having no puck skills. No one is advocating for bringing in that type of player. Just simply stating that adding another PP specialist that gets lost in his own end while offering nothing of value on the PK is not exactly what this group needs more of given the current core and current issues we have seen the past 1.5 years.

I misspoke then. What I don’t want is a Prout type that is a stay at home dman with zero puck moving ability. I said Dillon and Polak were beaten up by the Pens because they couldn’t make quick decisions with the puck and constantly coughed it up in their own end. Pretty much what you just said.....In regards to the PK, quite a few on this board were adamant about how Braun is such an integral part of the PK and how tough he would be to replace because of his skill set and defensive positioning...who stepped in to replace him? Erik Karlsson of all people. We won’t need Merkley to play on the PK. I think Vlasic, Simek, Karlsson, and Ferraro fill in those roles just fine. Doesn’t mean Merkley can’t log PK time down the road when he becomes more familiar with the system and shows he can handle the additional responsibility.

Am I being overly optimistic about Merkley being ready next year? Most likely. However, you’re being pretty presumptuous in how he will develop defensively over the next year or so. The advantage of having EK and Burns is that Merkley will be able to play sheltered minutes when he is ready. He doesn’t need to play 20 min. a night and he doesn’t have to fill in a vacated spot on the PK right off the bat.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

What up with Labanc anyways? I expected a big year out of him to earn that next contract.

Labanc is actually playing very well at even strength. It’s the first year where I can comfortably call him a net positive in that regard. He’s just not been at his best on the PP.

 

[STL Shark]

I misspoke then. What I don’t want is a Prout type that is a stay at home dman with zero puck moving ability. I said Dillon and Polak were beaten up by the Pens because they couldn’t make quick decisions with the puck and constantly coughed it up in their own end. Pretty much what you just said.....In regards to the PK, quite a few on this board were adamant about how Braun is such an integral part of the PK and how tough he would be to replace because of his skill set and defensive positioning...who stepped in to replace him? Erik Karlsson of all people. We won’t need Merkley to play on the PK. I think Vlasic, Simek, Karlsson, and Ferraro fill in those roles just fine. Doesn’t mean Merkley can’t log PK time down the road when he becomes more familiar with the system and shows he can handle the additional responsibility.

Am I being overly optimistic about Merkley being ready next year? Most likely. However, you’re being pretty presumptuous in how he will develop defensively over the next year or so. The advantage of having EK and Burns is that Merkley will be able to play sheltered minutes when he is ready. He doesn’t need to play 20 min. a night and he doesn’t have to fill in a vacated spot on the PK right off the bat.

I think to your Braun comment it was not as much that no one could pick up the slack or that it would suffer, it was that we don't want our horses like Burns and Karlsson having to be the ones to pick up that PK workload.

In an ideal world, the #3 RD could be someone that logs 16-18 mins a night and covers 1/2 of the PK time on the right side (i.e. 1 min of every 2 min minor with 88/65 splitting the other minute). Over the long haul of the season and into the playoffs (maybe) we are going to need those top guys to have their legs. Being forced into playing 25 mins a night as they have over the first 6 weeks of the season is not conducive to them being fresh come the post all-star break stretch run. Basically would love a vintage Justin Braun of 2012-2016 to somehow fall into our lap and play 3rd pairing minutes on the right side for $2 mil or less a season.