Prospect Info: 2019-20 Prospects Thread (CHL, NCAA, Junior A, Europe)

[henchman21]

Rushing shouldn't be a bad term.... you can rush a prospect and it work out well. The Avs' MO is to get their top prospects into the fold as quickly as possible and that is what is meant by rushing. Playing in a +1 year is frequent with the Avs, +2 is very common for top guys.

 

[cgf]

Maybe I’m missing a punchline so apologies if I’m missing your sarcasm but do you really believe that Mackinnon, Duchene, Landeskog and Rantanen were rushed?

Nah, just responding to some hyperbole with hyperbole...at least wrt Gabe, MacK & to a lesser extenet Dutchy -- as there was a case for overcooking him; Gabe & MacK weren't going to get anything out of going back to junior, and I don't think it would've benefit Matt's development in the long run, either.

They absolutely tried to rush Mikko though; before his struggles in the NHL forced them to pull their heads out of their asses...and if one or two pucks had bounced in for him during that initial stint, I have my doubts about whether he'd have seen a minute in San Antonio...

Rushing shouldn't be a bad term.... you can rush a prospect and it work out well. The Avs' MO is to get their top prospects into the fold as quickly as possible and that is what is meant by rushing. Playing in a +1 year is frequent with the Avs, +2 is very common for top guys.

This. So much this.

 

[Foppberg]

Rushing shouldn't be a bad term.... you can rush a prospect and it work out well. The Avs' MO is to get their top prospects into the fold as quickly as possible and that is what is meant by rushing. Playing in a +1 year is frequent with the Avs, +2 is very common for top guys.

To me rushing is playing a guy even though they're clearly not ready. You could argue for example RNH was rushed, but none of our top 5 picks have thus far been rushed IMO.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Nah, just responding to some hyperbole with hyperbole...at least wrt Gabe, MacK & to a lesser extenet Dutchy -- as there was a case for overcooking him; Gabe & MacK weren't going to get anything out of going back to junior, and I don't think it would've benefit Matt's development in the long run, either.

They absolutely tried to rush Mikko though; before his struggles in the NHL forced them to pull their heads out of their asses...and if one or two pucks had bounced in for him during that initial stint, I have my doubts about whether he'd have seen a minute in San Antonio...


This. So much this.

They played Mikko 6 games in October for 10 minutes a night or less and when they realized it wasn’t working they sent him down. Then they called him up for another 3 games in March after he spent an entire year as the best player in the AHL. He followed it up by leading the Avs in goal scoring the next year as a rookie, an 84 point season and an 87 point season.

On what planet would you consider that rushing? Hard to imagine a more perfect development path.

 

[cgf]

To me rushing is playing a guy even though they're clearly not ready. You could argue for example RNH was rushed, but none of our top 5 picks have thus far been rushed IMO.

The way I see it; RNH is what happens when you rush a kid who can't handle it. Whereas someone like Duchene was rushed and it succeeded.

To me rushing is just the antithetical strategy/ideology to over-cooking; so if over-cooking is keeping guys down until they have nothing more to gain from their current level, then rushing is just pushing guys on to the next challenge despite them still having had things to learn at the previous one. You can play successfully at that next challenge without having hit every developmental checkmark that you should have at the previous one.

 

[cgf]

They played Mikko 6 games in October for 10 minutes a night or less and when they realized it wasn’t working they sent him down. Then they called him up for another 3 games in March after he spent an entire year as the best player in the AHL. He followed it up by leading the Avs in goal scoring the next year as a rookie, an 84 point season and an 87 point season.

On what planet would you consider that rushing? Hard to imagine a more perfect development path.

Exactly. They tried to rush Mikko initially, it failed; then they accepted reality & did the right thing instead of Jost'ing or RNH'ing him.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Exactly. They tried to rush him, he failed, then they were forced to accept reality & do the right thing.

What do you mean they tried to rush him? If they tried to rush him they would have given him icetime and appropriate linemates.

They didn’t rush him, they gave him a 6 game opportunity in an extremely sheltered role.

 

[cgf]

What do you mean they tried to rush him? If they tried to rush him they would have given him icetime and appropriate linemates.

They didn’t rush him, they gave him a 6 game opportunity in an extremely sheltered role.

Since when did you need to get big minutes to be rushed? So if we pulled Newhook out of school & stuck him on our 4th line this season, we wouldn't be rushing him?

 

[Foppa2118]

And I see only one who wasn't, Makar, and that only because the player said no when they tried to rush him

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying only one top prospect wasn't rushed?

Jost was the only one I see. Every team in the league would have put Duchene, Landy, and MacKinnon in the NHL their first year, and Mikko his second. They were too good to keep out. Debatable on ROR, though he proved he was NHL ready also.

I don't see how any of these other guys were rushed.

• Kaut - 1 post draft year in AHL. Likely to start in AHL for a second year.
• Bowers - 1 post draft year in AHL. Likely to start in AHL for a second year.
• Makar - 2 post draft years in NCAA
• Greer - 1 post draft year in NCAA and Q. Had a five 5 game callup in second post draft year, and spent the rest of the year in the AHL. Handful of callup games in 3rd and 4th post draft year. Still isn't an NHL regular.
• Meloche - 2 post draft years in the Q. Then 2 post draft years in the AHL. Still hasn't played in the NHL, and is likely to start in the AHL again.
• Bleackley - 2 post draft years in WHL. Never played in the NHL.
• Bigras - 2 post draft years in OHL. Split time between NHL and AHL in 3rd post draft year.
• Heard - Split time in OHL and AHL during first post draft year as an overager. Then 2 more post draft years in AHL. Never played in the NHL
• Siemens - 2 post draft years in WHL. 3rd post draft year in the AHL with 1 NHL game callup. 4th post draft year all in AHL. Then mostly in the AHL for 5th and 6th post draft year with a few NHL callups.
• Hishon - 1 post draft year in OHL. Didn't get an NHL game for another few years though that was mostly because of his concussion.
• Elliott - 2 post draft years in WHL. Split time in AHL and NHL in 3rd post draft year.
• Barrie - 2 post draft years in WHL. 3rd post draft year was mostly in AHL with a 10 game NHL callup at the end of the season. First half of 4th post draft year was in AHL then in the NHL.
• Stewart - 1 post draft year in OHL. 2nd post draft year in AHL.
• Shattenkirk - 3 post draft years in NCAA
• Stoa - 4 post draft years in NCAA. Then a handful of callup games in 5th and 6th post draft years. Then a full AHL season in 7th post draft year
• Stastny - 1 post draft year in NCAA. Draft year was also in NCAA
• Wolski - 2 post draft years in OHL
• Johansson - 1 post draft year in WHL. Started 2nd post draft year in WHL before being traded.
• Liffiton - 1 post draft year in OHL before being traded.
• Nederost - 1 post draft year in Czech league. 2nd post draft year mostly in AHL with 25 games in NHL

 

[Avs_19]

Exactly. They tried to rush Mikko initially, it failed; then they accepted reality & did the right thing instead of Jost'ing or RNH'ing him.

They played him out of position on the 3rd/4th lines for 10 mins/gm and then sent him down to develop. He never even had a chance. How is that rushing him?

That's like saying Byram will be rushed if he gets 9 games, doesn't look ready, and is then sent down to the WHL. It makes no sense.

 

[cgf]

maybe Henchy or Cobra can translate for me

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Since when did you need to get big minutes to be rushed? So if we pulled Newhook out of school & stuck him on our 4th line this season, we wouldn't be rushing him?

Dude I don’t even know what to say right now. Like legit don’t know how to respond to what you’re saying because your hypothetical situation is so different. Newhook is going to college. He can’t attend camp. He can’t be sent to the AHL if it doesn’t work in the NHL. Mikko was a year older than Newhook. Aside from them both being young hockey players I’m completely lost on how that would be your comparable.

Mikko agreed to play in North America like everyone wanted. The Avs felt Mikko was worth a look after camp to see if his adjustment would be enough for him to be a worthy NHL regular. They have him 6 games in very limited (yet favorable) minutes. Like legit took him as slowly as they can to see how he adjusted. Not much changed after 6 games so they sent him down.

A guy looked like he may be ready for the NHL but wasn’t adjusted to the NA pro game. They attempted him very very slowly for a handful of games because the skill was there but when they realized the pro adjustment wasn’t they decided to put him in the AHL like they planned all along if his game wasn’t ready.

Mikko Rantanen was one of the most appropriately groomed prospects the Avalanche have ever developed.

Again I feel like I’m the laughing part of an inside joke right now and I’m missing something but if you legitimately think they rushed Mikko Rantanen I have nothing left to say. You called 2 Calder winners rushed too so I’m guessing it’s a joke.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

maybe Henchy or Cobra can translate for me

I’d be very impressed if anybody could translate you saying Mikko Rantanen was rushed. Unless what you actually mean is that Mikko Rantanen wasn’t rushed. That would be a strange way to communicate though.

 

[cgf]

Dude I don’t even know what to say right now. Like legit don’t know how to respond to what you’re saying because your hypothetical situation is so different. Newhook is going to college. He can’t attend camp. He can’t be sent to the AHL if it doesn’t work in the NHL. Mikko was a year older than Newhook. Aside from them both being young hockey players I’m completely lost on how that would be your comparable.

Mikko agreed to play in North America like everyone wanted. The Avs felt Mikko was worth a look after camp to see if his adjustment would be enough for him to be a worthy NHL regular. They have him 6 games in very limited (yet favorable) minutes. Like legit took him as slowly as they can to see how he adjusted. Not much changed after 6 games so they sent him down.

A guy looked like he may be ready for the NHL but wasn’t adjusted to the NA pro game. They attempted him very very slowly for a handful of games because the skill was there but when they realized the pro adjustment wasn’t they decided to put him in the AHL like they planned all along if his game wasn’t ready.

Mikko Rantanen was one of the most appropriately groomed prospect the Avalanche have ever developed.

Again I feel like I’m the laughing part of an inside joke right now and I’m missing something but if you legitimately think they rushed Mikko Rantanen I have nothing left to say. You called 2 Calder winners rushed too so I’m guessing it’s a joke.

If he was signed to his ELC to play on our 4th line, he most certainly could...and it's comparable in that they are both high picks who weren't NHL ready in their draft+1s being put in the exact same position. A position that I would call having been "rushed", but since I'm clearly in the minority here I'm trying to establish wtf you guys mean when you say rushed so we can at least establish some common-terminology.

Like I genuinely don't understand how what I am trying to say is so confusing lol...or are you all just being intentionally dense to f*** with me?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I’m done bud. They slowly brought along a kid to turn into one of the best players in the league but I’m “dense” for somehow not seeing that they rushed him.

 

[cgf]

If waiting the 3 months between his draft & first NHL game, is being brought along slowly; then I can't even imagine what it would've taken to rush him

 

[henchman21]

To me rushing is playing a guy even though they're clearly not ready. You could argue for example RNH was rushed, but none of our top 5 picks have thus far been rushed IMO.

So it is a difference in definition. I'd think you have to agree that as long as a top prospect doesn't completely suck, get injured, or be a total fatty... the Avs have a tendency to have them with the club very early.

 

[Foppa2118]

Rushing shouldn't be a bad term.... you can rush a prospect and it work out well. The Avs' MO is to get their top prospects into the fold as quickly as possible and that is what is meant by rushing. Playing in a +1 year is frequent with the Avs, +2 is very common for top guys.

This is highly inaccurate. The Avs have put 4 prospects in the last 38 years into the NHL in their draft+1 season. Duchene, Landy, MacKinnon, and ROR. Every team in the league would have put the first three in the NHL right away, and ROR proved he was ready also.

I only see 3 players in recent history that the Avs have put in the NHL in their draft+2 season. Rantanen, Stastny, and Jost. The first two were completely NHL ready and had good seasons and Jost we all agree was rushed.

The only reason I see to say a prospect is rushed, is to imply they were put in the NHL either sooner than they were ready, or sooner than other teams would have done so. Otherwise it would be phrased as putting them in the NHL early or right after being drafted. Neither of which the Avs do more than other teams.

 

[TheForsbergShow]

Ya I don't see how Rantanen was rushed at all. Doesn't hurt to give someone like him a look in some NHL games. He wasn't quite ready so they sent him down. Now if they forced him up all year and he was struggling then you can say he was being rushed. Just because he played some NHL games early doesn't mean he is rushed, plenty of players every year get a few games in to see how far away they may be from making a impact.

This is all under the assumption that rushing a player is meaning you are asking them to do more than they are able to handle or they still have lots of things to learn at the lower levels.

Mack was #1 overall, almost every single top pick is playing in the NHL right off the start. Landy was considered one of the more NHL ready prospects (at least if my memory is correct).

Jost was definitely rushed and had more to learn.

I would be curious to see how long it takes other teams to put in their top 10 picks in the NHL. I don't think we would be that much more or less than most, except for the fact we sucked for so long we had a lot of top 10 picks so it seems like we do it a lot.

 

[Pokecheque]

To be honest, too much is made about rushing or delaying a player. It's virtually impossible to truly "ruin" a prospect. You can certainly mishandle his development and hamper his development, or handle him expertly and maybe even speed it up, but if he doesn't make the big show, it's simply because he was never really good enough to begin with.

 

[cgf]

To be honest, too much is made about rushing or delaying a player. It's virtually impossible to truly "ruin" a prospect. You can certainly mishandle his development and hamper his development, or handle him expertly and maybe even speed it up, but if he doesn't make the big show, it's simply because he was never really good enough to begin with.

Disagreed bigly. So much of successful development has to do with managing the balance between challenging kids & building up their confidence; especially in new skills/areas that you are trying to add to their game. There's a lot of variability from prospect to prospect, so it doesn't matter for everyone...aka what I was getting at with the ready/not-ready to be rushed bit...but I think it's a very important dynamic of developing young talent consistently.

 

[henchman21]

cgf and myself are simply saying that rushed doesn't have anything to do with them being ready or not. It has to do with how quickly the organization wants to bring them into the fold. If you're talking different definitions, it is going to be a circular argument that never comes to a conclusion and people getting all hyped either way.

 

[Chiarelli]

Being rushed IMO is zadorov, grigorenko, Jost.
Where the development stalls at a level and they are sent down a league

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

You guys are arguing on the semantic of a definition. But its very hard to agree with a definition of rushed that includes bringing a player in the NHL at a time where he is ready for it, even if that time is right after the draft...

 

[Foppberg]

cgf and myself are simply saying that rushed doesn't have anything to do with them being ready or not. It has to do with how quickly the organization wants to bring them into the fold. If you're talking different definitions, it is going to be a circular argument that never comes to a conclusion and people getting all hyped either way.

That isn't rushed though. Every team wants their good prospects brought along asap.