2019-20 Kings News/Rumors

[kilowatt]

If Brown came in to the league today and ran around all of the time--like he used to--without ever fighting, nobody would care because it is a different game. Problem is that he led the league in hits for years and would not drop the gloves when challenged, or at least very rarely. Basically, the other player had to drop his gloves and jump him for Brown to react. Kirk Maltby was one of my most hated players because he would just run around but never drop his gloves. It was worse for Maltby since it was the 90s, not as bad for Brown but still a problem in the 00's and now it doesn't matter.

He used to draw so many penalties. While a lot of them were for falling down easier than he probably should have, a lot of them were also retaliatory type stuff because he would piss the other team off by trying to run everyone into the 5th row. You were supposed to answer for stuff back then and he wouldn't. I'm not trying to argue whether he was smart or not, just saying what was expected back then.

Like I said, not a problem today but he entered the league in a different era when it was not okay. He wasn't just hated by opposing rival fan bases because he hit hard and embellished: he was hated because he would generally never answer the bell. It's funny that we're talking about Avery since he is known as one of the biggest pests of all time when, really, Brown is right up there. It's just that he doesn't talk so maybe you don't want to call him a pest: maybe "troll" is a better description.

That's revisionist history. Brown came into the league when big hits were still commonplace and enforcers were playing 5-10 minutes a game. Big hit? Roll out the fourth line and let the enforcers have a staged fight.

Major penalties aren't a perfect stat for this, but it's the best I have easily available on NHL.com. From 05-06 to 11-12, Brown had 12 major penalties. Clutterbuck had 10. Hell, even Matt Cooke only had 16. Jarko Ruutu had 21, Tuomo Ruutu had 8. Ryan Callahan had 11. Backes had 21. These guys were leading the league in hits, literally hundreds of hits per year, but weren't fighting a ton.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Lewis is more likely to get a silver stick from this management group than a waiver wire assignment.

Sean Avery was a bush league player. Dave Taylor proved he was incompetent when he traded Matt Schneider for Avery, blown draft picks and some big Russian stiff who was one of the worst defenseman to ever wear a jersey.

Losing cultures attract losers.

 

[BigKing]

That's revisionist history. Brown came into the league when big hits were still commonplace and enforcers were playing 5-10 minutes a game. Big hit? Roll out the fourth line and let the enforcers have a staged fight.

Major penalties aren't a perfect stat for this, but it's the best I have easily available on NHL.com. From 05-06 to 11-12, Brown had 12 major penalties. Clutterbuck had 10. Hell, even Matt Cooke only had 16. Jarko Ruutu had 21, Tuomo Ruutu had 8. Ryan Callahan had 11. Backes had 21. These guys were leading the league in hits, literally hundreds of hits per year, but weren't fighting a ton.

Quite the cast of characters. All extremely well-liked and respected for their toughness.

 

[kingsholygrail]

It's weird thinking of Brown as the old man of the team. We're the same age. haha

 

[Statto]

I completely disagree. Avery's antics were tolerated by multiple organizations and he was no outlier - that "toughen you up" via harrassment and bullying **** existed well before Avery - and by guys with better behavior and reputation.

Keep in mind that Brown played a very physical game but never stood up for himself or his teammates when called out. You can bet the farm that Avery was trying to get him to man up in a way he had probably seen dozens of times, but his pea brain and emotional.problems took him off the deep end.

This is one of the most misguided viewpoints I’ve ever read on here. Giving Avery the benefit of the doubt at any level on this is absurd.

 

[KINGS17]

If Brown came in to the league today and ran around all of the time--like he used to--without ever fighting, nobody would care because it is a different game. Problem is that he led the league in hits for years and would not drop the gloves when challenged, or at least very rarely. Basically, the other player had to drop his gloves and jump him for Brown to react. Kirk Maltby was one of my most hated players because he would just run around but never drop his gloves. It was worse for Maltby since it was the 90s, not as bad for Brown but still a problem in the 00's and now it doesn't matter.

He used to draw so many penalties. While a lot of them were for falling down easier than he probably should have, a lot of them were also retaliatory type stuff because he would piss the other team off by trying to run everyone into the 5th row. You were supposed to answer for stuff back then and he wouldn't. I'm not trying to argue whether he was smart or not, just saying what was expected back then.

Like I said, not a problem today but he entered the league in a different era when it was not okay. He wasn't just hated by opposing rival fan bases because he hit hard and embellished: he was hated because he would generally never answer the bell. It's funny that we're talking about Avery since he is known as one of the biggest pests of all time when, really, Brown is right up there. It's just that he doesn't talk so maybe you don't want to call him a pest: maybe "troll" is a better description.

I agree, it was expected back then. Brown played a tough, physical brand of hockey. I am glad he didn't answer the bell all that often. He would have spent too much time in the penalty box.

 

[kilowatt]

Quite the cast of characters. All extremely well-liked and respected for their toughness.

What point are you trying to make? That Brown is gutless or lacks character?

 

[BigKing]

I agree, it was expected back then. Brown played a tough, physical brand of hockey. I am glad he didn't answer the bell all that often. He would have spent too much time in the penalty box.

Exactly. It's well known that Lappy had a reputation as a "hit and run" guy and as a spot picker if he did fight his first couple of years in the league. Then, in 98-99, he's like leading the league in fighting majors and ends his career being thought of as one of the warriors of his era.

Lappy wasn't respected at the start of his career because he would take huge runs and let other guys fight his battles, similar to a Maltby but Maltby was even worse because he wore a visor. 1996 NHL toughness and expectations were a lot different than 2004 or, more to the point, 2006 and on when Brown became a wrecking ball; however, there were still a lot of tough dudes and there was an expectation of backing your shit up if you are going to take massive runs: especially at top players on the other team.

I say all of this not to trash Brown. I'm just saying that the claim of revisionist history is allowing the passage of time to fog up one's memory. Through the 2012 season, he had only 9 fights in 8 seasons while amassing thousands of hits. To Bland's point, I don't remember him ever getting an instigator and running to the defense of a teammate.

That being said, it isn't his game. He is a horrible fighter, although he did drop Daymond Langkow after Langkow jumped him after a big hit. He has "taken a number" before and gotten revenge via a hit but he hasn't done it with his fists.

So back to Bland's commentary: Avery was super tough. Real small dude but would fight nearly anyone and actually did pretty well. I'm not condoning what he did or didn't do in the locker room, but it isn't far fetched to believe he wanted to toughen up his young teammate v. he simply wanted to be an asshole and ruin his life. His problem is that there was no line he wouldn't cross because there just wasn't a line there to begin with for him and Brown comes off as a more sensitive guy than your typical hockey meathead bro.

It is very--and I stress very--easy to just dismiss anything Avery related as he must have been in the wrong and he's just an asshole. As bad of a teammate as he supposedly was, he would stick up for his guys out on the ice and, yes, he was tolerated by several organizations. More than tolerated, even. 580 regular season games played which equates to a little over seven full seasons. 35 points/13 goals a season career average while amassing over 1,500 PIMS. Not bad numbers while missing ice time to the tune of 216 PIMS a year on average. Better than half point per game in the playoffs as well and an overall plus player for his career.

 

[BigKing]

What point are you trying to make? That Brown is gutless or lacks character?

You listed a bunch of guys known for running around and not backing it up. You backed up my point that he was a hit and run guy but the era was shifting to where these types of guys became a little more commonplace; however, it doesn't mean that their physical games were respected.

Look: We would have hated Dustin Brown if he was on a division rival and it would have been non-stop in here about how much of a p***y he is for not fighting when challenged after running around and hitting all of our players. Just because he's our p***y doesn't change that fact. Again, I say all of this not to rip on him. Unlike Bland, I like him since it was still very entertaining to see him run over everything in sight during the back half of the 00's playoff drought. I went to basically every game so I loved it. Still, I was cognizant of it at the time about how I would hate how he didn't answer the bell if I was a fan of another team. He got challenged behind the play and had guys yapping at him so often back then. Hell...he got challenged in the Caps game by Hathaway after a big hit and just took it: I thought I stepped out of a time machine!

I can still love the guy while not ignoring that his lack of dropping the gloves was a thing back then.

 

[Bandit]

I dunno, I think if you started a poll about Avery with two options:

- Super tough
- Chickenshit turtle

That the second would win in a landslide.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So, what do you think the Kings could get from Edmonton for Drew Doughty?

 

[kingsholygrail]

James Neal and a 2nd.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

They didn't even waive Kovalchuk. Not that they could, but it's not going to start with Lewis.

Lewis does nothing. Absolutely nothing. If they are looking toward the future, they have already started that, when they bought out Dion and next, sat out Kovalchuk.
Kovy will probably never play a game with the Kings again and likely be moved after the bonus payment next week...or soon. So, the next piece to remove, to keep
forging ahead, should be Lewis, He's thee most replaceable of the next 32+ year olds. Grundstrom is better and brings more to the table. Luff brings something,
just not sure if he's really going to make it. But give him a chance.

Sure, some are going at the deadline - some of - Martinez, Lewis, Toffoli and possibly Hutton...possibly Clifford...possibly Carter
After the deadline, expect some of: Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Bjornfot, Anderson to get called up. Not all of them, not enough room.

Is there one reason Lewis should be on the team? He does nothing now.

 

[kingsfan28]

I agree, it was expected back then. Brown played a tough, physical brand of hockey. I am glad he didn't answer the bell all that often. He would have spent too much time in the penalty box.

But when he was asked to go, he did. Him and Doan went at it , as well as the guy from Dallas when he ran into Turco I believe. I can't really remember anyone having to defend him when it came to fighting, most guys just did it because the were defending their Captain, just like they do today.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Lewis does nothing. Absolutely nothing. If they are looking toward the future, they have already started that, when they bought out Dion and next, sat out Kovalchuk.
Kovy will probably never play a game with the Kings again and likely be moved after the bonus payment next week...or soon. So, the next piece to remove, to keep
forging ahead, should be Lewis, He's thee most replaceable of the next 32+ year olds. Grundstrom is better and brings more to the table. Luff brings something,
just not sure if he's really going to make it. But give him a chance.

Sure, some are going at the deadline - some of - Martinez, Lewis, Toffoli and possibly Hutton...possibly Clifford...possibly Carter
After the deadline, expect some of: Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Bjornfot, Anderson to get called up. Not all of them, not enough room.

Is there one reason Lewis should be on the team? He does nothing now.

All true, but we just have to wait. They're not putting him in Ontario, so what's the point of waiving him? I would guess the most he'll be is a healthy scratch, but not every game. Phaneuf was never part of anything, and management clearly has zero respect for Kovalchuk. Lewis was part of something though, and despite him being terrible, and disliked by fans, I'm guessing that a young peer, someone like Lizotte, easily still picks the ear of a guy like him. He can't hurt his deadline value at this point, so might as well try and get something out of him for the next 2 months.

Like you said, it is a process, and it's going to be slower more often than it is quick.

 

[KingsFan7824]

After 30 games last year:
11-18-1
30th overall
66 GF
91 GA
9 regulation wins

After 30 games this year:
11-17-2
29th overall
74 GF
98 GA
8 regulation wins

3-6-1 in the last 10 games. They have not scored a 1st period goal on the road in 9 games. They are 1-6 on the road against the Pacific. Outscored 30-15.

13 PP goals in 30 games last year, 11 this year. Kopitar, 7g/18pts last year, 10g/27pts this year.

18-19:
Brown, 8 goals
Kopitar, 7
Carter, 6
Luff, 5
Kovalchuk, 5
Clifford, 5
Iafallo, 5
Toffoli, 5
Kempe, 4
Martinez, 3

19-20:
Kopitar, 10
Carter, 8
Toffoli, 6
Brown, 6
Amadio, 5
Iafallo, 5
Doughty, 5
Prokhorkin, 4
Walker, 4
Kovalchuk/Clifford/Kempe/Lizotte, 3 each

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So, what do you think the Kings could get from Edmonton for Drew Doughty?

Lucic also "jumped at the chance to play with McDavid" and look what happened.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Some analysis on Toff and Carts, including bar charts!

Are P.K. Subban, Jake Gardiner poised for potential breakouts?

Tyler Toffoli, Andreas Athanasiou, and Jeff Carter are all good players. At one point, Toffoli looked like a budding star, while Athanasiou’s speed makes him a dangerous offensive weapon in the middle of a lineup, and Carter used to be a legitimate star player, but is now trending down at 34 years old (turning 35 in the new year).

All these players have their faults, but can any of them recover?

All three of these players are pushing play offensively, putting up better than league average scoring-chance numbers on teams that struggle to create chances. Toffoli and Carter are one and two on the Kings in scoring chances per minute played, and both are in the positives in inner-slot shot, shot, and shot-attempt differential.

Carter is struggling a bit in the slot-pass differential category, but while Toffoli is on the ice, the Kings are getting a whopping 60 per cent of the slot passes at even strength. My initial thought was perhaps Toffoli was getting boosted defensively by Anze Kopitar, but he’s played under 40 minutes with Kopitar this season, his most common linemate is actually Carter.

None of the three players are much for playmaking as individuals. When Carter and Toffoli play together it’s 21-year-old rookie Blake Lizzotte doing the distributing for their shooting. Carter is closer to the net, and Toffoli is in the high slot. That line has actually been very good, with an expected goals-for percentage of 64.8 per cent.

If the Kings are serious about trading Toffoli while his value is low, a lot of teams that need scoring would be wise to throw their hats in the ring.

 

[Statto]

You listed a bunch of guys known for running around and not backing it up. You backed up my point that he was a hit and run guy but the era was shifting to where these types of guys became a little more commonplace; however, it doesn't mean that their physical games were respected.

Look: We would have hated Dustin Brown if he was on a division rival and it would have been non-stop in here about how much of a ***** he is for not fighting when challenged after running around and hitting all of our players. Just because he's our ***** doesn't change that fact. Again, I say all of this not to rip on him. Unlike Bland, I like him since it was still very entertaining to see him run over everything in sight during the back half of the 00's playoff drought. I went to basically every game so I loved it. Still, I was cognizant of it at the time about how I would hate how he didn't answer the bell if I was a fan of another team. He got challenged behind the play and had guys yapping at him so often back then. Hell...he got challenged in the Caps game by Hathaway after a big hit and just took it: I thought I stepped out of a time machine!

I can still love the guy while not ignoring that his lack of dropping the gloves was a thing back then.

I never wanted him to answer the bell for a hit. There is nothing worse, for me, than someone crying like a baby over a good hit and wanting to fight over it. I don’t care what era we are talking about, I’ve always considered it kinda pathetic. So Brownie being a wrecking ball and seeing guys want to fight, only to be met with a grin, is what turned him into one of my all time favourite Kings.

 

[BigKing]

I dunno, I think if you started a poll about Avery with two options:

- Super tough
- Chicken**** turtle

That the second would win in a landslide.

Because a lot of people never really watched him play and just know the antics talked about in the media.

If it didn't come out that he hurt Brown's feelings, he'd be liked a lot more on this board.

 

[Statto]

I think it’s worth a shout out about how classy Kovi has been with things so far. He’s clearly coming to work each day and isn’t causing any issues behind the scenes. There will be many, many players that wouldn’t show the same level of professionalism.

I really hope, for his sake, that they have some sort of deal agreed that will kick in once his bonus payment is paid.

 

[Statto]

Because a lot of people never really watched him play and just know the antics talked about in the media.

If it didn't come out that he hurt Brown's feelings, he'd be liked a lot more on this board.

His behaviour behind the scenes is important though. I could see the value of him as an agitator, and he was very good at it. Anyone saying different would be disingenuous. However, the Brown stuff apart, he was clearly an issue off the ice. There was always something going on, some sort of controversy. That in an era before social media really took off, now he’d have been 100 x worse.

I ended up delighted when he left but quality disappointed he didn’t grow up and realise his potential as one of the great pests of the game. To do that he needed to sort himself out off the ice, so the team could properly embrace him. He was given every opportunity but chose not to take it. My view of him had long changed by the time he left and that was before I knew what had happened with Brown.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think it’s worth a shout out about how classy Kovi has been with things so far. He’s clearly coming to work each day and isn’t causing any issues behind the scenes. There will be many, many players that wouldn’t show the same level of professionalism.

I really hope, for his sake, that they have some sort of deal agreed that will kick in once his bonus payment is paid.

I bet Ilya is thankful for staying home.

 

[BigKing]

His behaviour behind the scenes is important though. I could see the value of him as an agitator, and he was very good at it. Anyone saying different would be disingenuous. However, the Brown stuff apart, he was clearly an issue off the ice. There was always something going on, some sort of controversy. That in an era before social media really took off, now he’d have been 100 x worse.

I ended up delighted when he left but quality disappointed he didn’t grow up and realise his potential as one of the great pests of the game. To do that he needed to sort himself out off the ice, so the team could properly embrace him. He was given every opportunity but chose not to take it. My view of him had long changed by the time he left and that was before I knew what had happened with Brown.

That's fair. I just think the generalization that he was a p***y and a turtling bitch is the mythology and not what really went down.

He is an asshole though. That is not a myth.

 

[BigKing]

But when he was asked to go, he did. Him and Doan went at it , as well as the guy from Dallas when he ran into Turco I believe. I can't really remember anyone having to defend him when it came to fighting, most guys just did it because the were defending their Captain, just like they do today.

If he truly went when he was asked to go, he'd have led the league in fighting majors. He had to fight Doan and Morrow gave him no choice after running Turco. He also basically just held on and wrestled.

Again: that's fine. The point is that it wasn't respected around the league. I'm not crucifying him but just stating the facts. I mean, it was really fun to watch and the lack of a mean forechecker while we suck has been a real drain on the entertainment value. We have way too many guys that let up and don't finish hard. We can talk about the pipeline all we want, but they are going to need some heartier foot soldiers when it comes time to contend.