2019-20 Colorado Eagles (AHL) and Utah Grizzlies (ECHL)

[McMetal]

My point with Mikko was to show that the low point and goal totals in the AHL are more representative of the lack of talent and hockey IQ from AHLers, rather than it being a tough league to score in.

When a smart and talented player like Mikko is in the AHL he has no problems scoring, even as a rookie 19 year old getting used to the North American game.

This obviously isn't the case for everyone, and I agree with SEPH that you shouldn't put too much stock into point totals in the AHL. Lots of other factors are involved like poor linemates, poor systems, and players working on other aspects of their game to make the NHL.

I didn't say it was a tough league to score in, I said it was a tough league to score A LOT of goals in. Factors like the ones you mentioned are a part of that. Talent is so spread out there that it's very difficult for one player to do a whole lot of damage, even putting aside the fact that a player that's good enough to torch the AHL is usually good enough to move on to the next level.

 

[henchman21]

I am not going to judge rookies and second years in the AHL because it can be a very difficult transition period. Additionally, points don't mean crap at the AHL level like we saw with Shattenkirk and I think Bowers still has a lot left in the tank to improve as well. However, to be considered an NHL player I suggest that he's got to get into the 40 point range to show enough offence to stick at the NHL level consistently. LOC was considerably older, but he manage to get into the low 40s in points and is barely a bottom 6 player at this point - albeit a productive one.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I agree that it is a difficult transition for players, and it is tough to make an impact... but if a player can't get going by middle of their second AHL season, it becomes pretty unlikely they ever succeed. The list is very small for players who broke out in their 3rd+ AHL year and became NHL regulars... almost non existent for impact NHL players. As you pointed out LOC stepped right in and was good there, and he's still barely a NHL player. Graves was an AHL all star his first season. Marchessault for Vegas was a near PPG player and All Star in Columbus' system for years before getting a stint with the Lightning that lead to him finally getting a full NHL deal in Florida. It might take players time to earn their roles, but they should be making impacts in the AHL early.

 

[tigervixxxen]

This obviously isn't the case for everyone, and I agree with SEPH that you shouldn't put too much stock into point totals in the AHL. Lots of other factors are involved like poor linemates, poor systems, and players working on other aspects of their game to make the NHL.

Role is an enormous one too. The Eagles give the vets all the special opportunities. PP1, 4v4, empty net, OT. There’s not a lot of cheap points to be had. A guy like Kaut nobody is impressed by the point totals but it’s damn near all ES primary production. Kaut and Bowers weren’t even allowed on PP1 until the second half of the season. So yeah box score grazing doesn’t tell the story at all in the AHL. Obviously you want the player involved and scoring but you can’t go by point totals to say a guy is ready. There’s a lot of AAAA guys who are good at scoring in the AHL and they help your team down there but they absolutely should not be in the NHL. You pay them $$$$ for AHL leadership and scoring, that’s where they should be.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

 

[henchman21]

Been pleasantly surprised with Cronin, so happy to have him extended. His work with Graves and LOC so far looks to be paying dividends. If he can turn Bowers, Timmins, and Kaut to NHL players he'll have done a fantastic job for the Avs. I'd still have some squabbles, but if he can continue to churn out 1-2 NHL players a year consistently, I don't think you can really complain.

 

[Foppa2118]

I know the Eagles aren't a big part of the beat covering the Avs, but they didn't just pick up the third year option on Cronin did they? Next season is his third year. Seems they would have done this a while ago.

Or were they trying to be cheap and not lock themselves into paying Cronin, when they didn't know if the AHL would have a season?

Kind of a shitty limbo to put him in if the latter is the case.

 

[Avsrule2022]

I know the Eagles aren't a big part of the beat covering the Avs, but they didn't just pick up the third year option on Cronin did they? Next season is his third year. Seems they would have done this a while ago.

Or were they trying to be cheap and not lock themselves into paying Cronin, when they didn't know if the AHL would have a season?

Kind of a shitty limbo to put him in if the latter is the case.

My take on this is that the plan pre-covid was to move Cronin into the (non-existant) Director of Player Development position for the Avs this year and move Schneeks up to coach, but with the interrupted season last year and the short season this year they decided to wait.
I had also heard rumors last spring of a local college hockey coach joining the Eagles coaching staff for this season,which would have made sense in this situation.
Either way, glad to have Cronin back, and I would certainly like to see him stick around at some capacity with the Avs org.

 

[Metallo]

I know the Eagles aren't a big part of the beat covering the Avs, but they didn't just pick up the third year option on Cronin did they? Next season is his third year. Seems they would have done this a while ago.

Or were they trying to be cheap and not lock themselves into paying Cronin, when they didn't know if the AHL would have a season?

Kind of a shitty limbo to put him in if the latter is the case.

Agreed, if the report is timely they took their sweet ass time to exercise their contract option.

 

[McMetal]

Great news about Cronin. I've been screaming for ages that the Avs needed a coach down there who would develop players rather than just ride vets, and reports are that he's been key in that regard for several guys. Hope he sticks around because he's been exactly what the doctor ordered.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Does anyone know if this Cronin extension is for this season, or the year after?

 

[Foppa2118]

Does anyone know if this Cronin extension is for this season, or the year after?

Unless Dater got the details wrong (which is possible) he said the third year was an option year. This would be Cronin's third season.

 

[Pokecheque]

I know the Eagles aren't a big part of the beat covering the Avs, but they didn't just pick up the third year option on Cronin did they? Next season is his third year. Seems they would have done this a while ago.

Or were they trying to be cheap and not lock themselves into paying Cronin, when they didn't know if the AHL would have a season?

Kind of a shitty limbo to put him in if the latter is the case.

Honestly asking here, not trying to start an argument, but wouldn't picking up the option and then there not being an AHL season make it difficult for Cronin to land a gig elsewhere?

Either way, I'm happy with Cronin thus far. Graves gives him a lot of credit for making him into an NHLer when before he looked like a career minor league guy, and the Eagles appear to be successful both in terms of success and ability to develop prospects. There seems to be a verrrrry precarious balance between talent development and winning, which is obviously a thing with all 31 AHL clubs, not just the Eegs...but it sure appears a little moreso in Loveland. Good on Cronin for appearing to succeed on both fronts thus far.

 

[Foppa2118]

Honestly asking here, not trying to start an argument, but wouldn't picking up the option and then there not being an AHL season make it difficult for Cronin to land a gig elsewhere?

Either way, I'm happy with Cronin thus far. Graves gives him a lot of credit for making him into an NHLer when before he looked like a career minor league guy, and the Eagles appear to be successful both in terms of success and ability to develop prospects. There seems to be a verrrrry precarious balance between talent development and winning, which is obviously a thing with all 31 AHL clubs, not just the Eegs...but it sure appears a little moreso in Loveland. Good on Cronin for appearing to succeed on both fronts thus far.

I don't see why it would be a problem, but I'm not sure he'd want to look for another gig. Coaches find jobs elsewhere while under contract all the time. They'd just need to work it out with ownership.

In which case the Avs would either be paying Cronin (most likely) with no AHL season, or they wouldn't be paying him, and it'd be hard to believe they would prevent him from earning money elsewhere if the latter was the case.

I would bet Cronin would prefer to have the job security with a deal in place in the AHL, rather than having to look around the world for a coaching gig during the pandemic, if given the two options.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Honestly asking here, not trying to start an argument, but wouldn't picking up the option and then there not being an AHL season make it difficult for Cronin to land a gig elsewhere?

Either way, I'm happy with Cronin thus far. Graves gives him a lot of credit for making him into an NHLer when before he looked like a career minor league guy, and the Eagles appear to be successful both in terms of success and ability to develop prospects. There seems to be a verrrrry precarious balance between talent development and winning, which is obviously a thing with all 31 AHL clubs, not just the Eegs...but it sure appears a little moreso in Loveland. Good on Cronin for appearing to succeed on both fronts thus far.

Producing useful players for the Avs is far more important than winning games in the AHL. If they're being taught well, winning might be a bi-product of good coaching. And that's fine. But player development for the parent team is what's paramount.

I don't follow them closely enough to have a handle on either. I just know that @tigervixxxen seems to follow them and she's made multiple comments about keeping our top prospects away from the Eagles.

I think it's a fine line between making young guys earn it and coddling them, But at the same time, you can say that nothing is owed to the AHL lifers as well.

 

[Pokecheque]

I don't see why it would be a problem, but I'm not sure he'd want to look for another gig. Coaches find jobs elsewhere while under contract all the time. They'd just need to work it out with ownership.

I would bet Cronin would prefer to have the job security with a deal in place in the AHL, rather than having to look around the world for a coaching gig during the pandemic, if given the two options.

Yes, but teams still have to ask for permission in that event, which, even slightly, can lessen someone's chances of landing a job.

Not my intention to defend the organizations, but I don't necessarily blame them for waiting until they were reasonably certain there was an NHL season before proceeding.

 

[Foppa2118]

Yes, but teams still have to ask for permission in that event, which, even slightly, can lessen someone's chances of landing a job.

Not my intention to defend the organizations, but I don't necessarily blame them for waiting until they were reasonably certain there was an NHL season before proceeding.

I don't think it would have an impact. If they weren't paying him, Cronin would probably ask permission to look elsewhere, and Sakic/Kroenke would presumably just say sure. Just one extra phone call/email.

Seems like they would pay him regardless though. He's the head coach.

This is all speculation though. It's not totally clear to me if this played out the way it looks. Dater could have gotten the info late, or gotten the option year wrong.

 

[Pokecheque]

Producing useful players for the Avs is far more important than winning games in the AHL. If they're being taught well, winning might be a bi-product of good coaching. And that's fine. But player development for the parent team is what's paramount.

I don't follow them closely enough to have a handle on either. I just know that @tigervixxxen seems to follow them and she's made multiple comments about keeping our top prospects away from the Eagles.

I think it's a fine line between making young guys earn it and coddling them, But at the same time, you can say that nothing is owed to the AHL lifers as well.

Most of the time yes, the farm club's priority is to develop talent. I've even seen AHL coaches fired because they prioritized winning over development. But I'm sure the Eagles organization did not enter in the affiliation agreement with the Avalanche without some assurances that winning would not take a complete backseat to getting players ready for the Big Leagues. The Eagles are probably not on the same level as the Chicago Wolves, who seemingly alienate NHL affiliates yearly due to their insistence on being a mostly-independent operation, but I think they would've been really mad had their playoffs streak ended once they made the jump to the AHL. Luckily Pavel Francouz more or less stood on his head and willed the team into the postseason.

So yeah, I think you see Cronin try to strike a balance. Guys like Bowers and Kaut play prominent roles, but it took a while before they were trusted to do so. Meanwhile a first-year guy like Nick Henry languished in a fourth-line role. Don't know if that's more a bad pick or mistrust from the coaching staff, but it's hard for a player to develop when he ain't gettin' any ice time. Then there's the whole Igor Shvyryov experience, and I'm not sure who to blame there.

I really didn't like the Cronin hire at the time it happened. He was the assistant coach for the Isles under Dougie Weight in charge of defense, and that was one of the worst defensive teams in the league, if not THE worst. But so far...I can't really argue the results. Graves went from AHL filler to top-pairing NHL defender (albeit in a temporary role), Kaut looks ready to make the jump, and Bowers is probably not far behind. Also, he probably deserves some credit for Frankie as well (and don't anyone let recency bias cloud their thinking there).

 

[McMetal]

Producing useful players for the Avs is far more important than winning games in the AHL. If they're being taught well, winning might be a bi-product of good coaching. And that's fine. But player development for the parent team is what's paramount.

I don't follow them closely enough to have a handle on either. I just know that @tigervixxxen seems to follow them and she's made multiple comments about keeping our top prospects away from the Eagles.

I think it's a fine line between making young guys earn it and coddling them, But at the same time, you can say that nothing is owed to the AHL lifers as well.

Of course NHL clubs want their AHL squads to win. Winning gets you into the playoffs, which means extra high pressure games for your prospects down there. Having a winning culture on your AHL squad is just as important to a player's development as coaching. Fortunately, while it doesn't look like Cronin is going to get the Eagles to a championship, he's able to balance winning with development so far, making him a worthy investment for a third year (and hopefully longer).

 

[tigervixxxen]

Yes a winning environment is ideal but it really only matters when the prospects are contributing and gaining from that experience. It’s a fallacy that young AHL teams don’t win. Syracuse regularly dressed 9 rookies a couple years ago and made it to the second round of the AHL playoffs and graduated several of those contributors (Cirelli ring a bell), Belleville was one of the top teams last year with a ton of young prospects playing. Obviously a few vets make sense especially proven AAAA types (and don’t call them up defeating the purpose).

There hasn’t been much winning in the AHL despite leaning heavily on vets until Cronin showed up so I do give him some credit (goaltending and home ice advantage help too). He seems to enjoy teaching details and working with the younger players so I’m satisfied that he’s returning. A lot of the big picture stuff seems controlled by Billington but Cronin isn’t in a hurry to get non-first rounders in the lineup either. It’s going to take a major overhaul and philosophical shift to make major changes on that front so I don’t expect it. Getting graduations from their first rounders is going to be the massive task before we can even worry about the rest. LOC, Graves and Francouz had years of development elsewhere and political reasons to get opportunities. Doesn’t mean they haven’t helped the NHL squad but let’s bring a 20 year old draft pick over the finish line sometime?

 

[S E P H]

Not sure if you lot saw, but Smirnov has been released by Utah. Not sure what's up or if the Grizzlies decided not to play this year, I haven't really been paying attention but I do know a crap ton have cancelled seasons already in teh ECHL.

 

[McMetal]

Yes a winning environment is ideal but it really only matters when the prospects are contributing and gaining from that experience. It’s a fallacy that young AHL teams don’t win. Syracuse regularly dressed 9 rookies a couple years ago and made it to the second round of the AHL playoffs and graduated several of those contributors (Cirelli ring a bell), Belleville was one of the top teams last year with a ton of young prospects playing. Obviously a few vets make sense especially proven AAAA types (and don’t call them up defeating the purpose).

There hasn’t been much winning in the AHL despite leaning heavily on vets until Cronin showed up so I do give him some credit (goaltending and home ice advantage help too). He seems to enjoy teaching details and working with the younger players so I’m satisfied that he’s returning. A lot of the big picture stuff seems controlled by Billington but Cronin isn’t in a hurry to get non-first rounders in the lineup either. It’s going to take a major overhaul and philosophical shift to make major changes on that front so I don’t expect it. Getting graduations from their first rounders is going to be the massive task before we can even worry about the rest. LOC, Graves and Francouz had years of development elsewhere and political reasons to get opportunities. Doesn’t mean they haven’t helped the NHL squad but let’s bring a 20 year old draft pick over the finish line sometime?

There is something to be said for the argument that our scouting is partly responsible for the failures in development. Particularly the CHL staff. Aside from can't-miss picks like Byram it's been a whole lot of strikeouts for that crew for a long time in the late rounds. They all look promising in juniors and faceplant when they get to the pros. Whether that's the Avs losing interest or not is up for debate, but the results are not promising. I'd argue that CHL kids in particular have less time to lose favor with the org than somebody like Ranta who has the option to go back for 3-4 years before they make a decision to even offer a deal.

Cronin might be more willing to play rookies if they found ways to contribute. It's chicken and egg, but given that his development successes so far have all either come from Europe, college, or in Graves' case from another org's amateur scouts, I feel like the blame could be centered on the CHL staff's inability to identify traits that will serve junior players well in the pros. The guy who pounded the table for Josh Anderson in particular should have to face consequences of some sort.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Of course NHL clubs want their AHL squads to win. Winning gets you into the playoffs, which means extra high pressure games for your prospects down there. Having a winning culture on your AHL squad is just as important to a player's development as coaching. Fortunately, while it doesn't look like Cronin is going to get the Eagles to a championship, he's able to balance winning with development so far, making him a worthy investment for a third year (and hopefully longer).

Not really. If you’re winning because you rely heavily on AHL lifers (ie older players who are good in the AHL but have no real future in the NHL) what was accomplished?

The culture matters to the extent that the real prospects are allowed to participate in it.

And being in the playoffs with diminished roles? The playoffs are only a small percentage of the games and they don’t outweigh the bulk of the season.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Not sure if you lot saw, but Smirnov has been released by Utah. Not sure what's up or if the Grizzlies decided not to play this year, I haven't really been paying attention but I do know a crap ton have cancelled seasons already in teh ECHL.

Yes Utah has played a couple games and will more after Christmas. They are one of the 13 teams who have chosen to play. The ECHL “talent pool” is saturated now as teams that are playing have signed the better guys who were out of a job. Idk what happened to Smirnov in particular but he could have been squeezed out. He didn’t play in one of the two games because of immigration apparently so idk if that is part of the reason as well. They don’t have any NHL contracted or otherwise “prospects” on the roster btw in case anyone is wondering.

 

[henchman21]

There is something to be said for the argument that our scouting is partly responsible for the failures in development. Particularly the CHL staff. Aside from can't-miss picks like Byram it's been a whole lot of strikeouts for that crew for a long time in the late rounds. They all look promising in juniors and faceplant when they get to the pros. Whether that's the Avs losing interest or not is up for debate, but the results are not promising. I'd argue that CHL kids in particular have less time to lose favor with the org than somebody like Ranta who has the option to go back for 3-4 years before they make a decision to even offer a deal.

Cronin might be more willing to play rookies if they found ways to contribute. It's chicken and egg, but given that his development successes so far have all either come from Europe, college, or in Graves' case from another org's amateur scouts, I feel like the blame could be centered on the CHL staff's inability to identify traits that will serve junior players well in the pros. The guy who pounded the table for Josh Anderson in particular should have to face consequences of some sort.

I would argue that many don't look nearly as promising as people think. The current example is Mutala. He is an solid WHL player and he had a decent +1 year. It wasn't great though. He's pretty average in the skill department and he's a below average skater. He's smart and plays well off the puck, with a good work ethic. But I don't see a NHL player in him. He might be an okay AHL player. He's not good enough at anything. Beaucage has an absolute weapon of shot, and he shows a heady game offensively. He also has some major redflags in his game. If you take a look at the failures, you can see some warning signs. Henry had a terrible +1 year and in his draft year disappeared late in the season and playoffs. Barron was a hyped player going into junior, but never really played at an above average level. He couldn't reach PPG as a +2. Anderson was a throwback defensemen in a game that has passed those types by. A complete lack of skill. Shvy is an interesting one, and a player I really thought would make it. His offensive skills were all there. Skating was a much bigger issue than I thought, and if there is a case to be made of a player not getting a chance, he's the guy. It is a trend now though and he still hasn't made an impact in the KHL. Could be the MHL was that bad and a much worse league that people have thought. This continues with a lot of players with the Avs. The guy who I can think of who may have been a miss in development is Meloche.

When it comes to the Avs' top guys down there, it has been Kaut, Bowers, and Timmins. Kaut and Timmins are on the verge of making the Avs and could very well spend this whole season with the team either on the main roster or taxi squad. Bowers is continuing to develop. His warning signs are the ability to actually play center and if he has enough offensive skill in his game to really have an impact. The latter has been a consistent question even going into his draft year. The former was a new issue brought out by the AHL.

Outside of these three that the Avs have been working to develop... who has really had NHL talent? I'd say Greer has NHL talent and the Avs worked hard to develop him... his problem wasn't at the AHL level. His penalties caused him and Bednar to be oil and water. Meloche is another. His skating is a legit issue. I thought it would be overcome, but I don't think you can say he didn't get his chance either... he got solid minutes during his tenure before being moved. With San Jose, he can't find the time of day. Beaudin is another, and I think he still has some NHL skills in his toolbox. He is just incredibly soft and that can really wear on some coaches. The Avs aren't the toughest or most physical team... but up and down the lineup there are very few purely soft players. Girard is, but he makes up for his game elsewhere. Jost isn't so much soft as he is weak. He's willing to battle, just sucks at it.

 

[McMetal]

I would argue that many don't look nearly as promising as people think. The current example is Mutala. He is an solid WHL player and he had a decent +1 year. It wasn't great though. He's pretty average in the skill department and he's a below average skater. He's smart and plays well off the puck, with a good work ethic. But I don't see a NHL player in him. He might be an okay AHL player. He's not good enough at anything. Beaucage has an absolute weapon of shot, and he shows a heady game offensively. He also has some major redflags in his game. If you take a look at the failures, you can see some warning signs. Henry had a terrible +1 year and in his draft year disappeared late in the season and playoffs. Barron was a hyped player going into junior, but never really played at an above average level. He couldn't reach PPG as a +2. Anderson was a throwback defensemen in a game that has passed those types by. A complete lack of skill. Shvy is an interesting one, and a player I really thought would make it. His offensive skills were all there. Skating was a much bigger issue than I thought, and if there is a case to be made of a player not getting a chance, he's the guy. It is a trend now though and he still hasn't made an impact in the KHL. Could be the MHL was that bad and a much worse league that people have thought. This continues with a lot of players with the Avs. The guy who I can think of who may have been a miss in development is Meloche.

When it comes to the Avs' top guys down there, it has been Kaut, Bowers, and Timmins. Kaut and Timmins are on the verge of making the Avs and could very well spend this whole season with the team either on the main roster or taxi squad. Bowers is continuing to develop. His warning signs are the ability to actually play center and if he has enough offensive skill in his game to really have an impact. The latter has been a consistent question even going into his draft year. The former was a new issue brought out by the AHL.

Outside of these three that the Avs have been working to develop... who has really had NHL talent? I'd say Greer has NHL talent and the Avs worked hard to develop him... his problem wasn't at the AHL level. His penalties caused him and Bednar to be oil and water. Meloche is another. His skating is a legit issue. I thought it would be overcome, but I don't think you can say he didn't get his chance either... he got solid minutes during his tenure before being moved. With San Jose, he can't find the time of day. Beaudin is another, and I think he still has some NHL skills in his toolbox. He is just incredibly soft and that can really wear on some coaches. The Avs aren't the toughest or most physical team... but up and down the lineup there are very few purely soft players. Girard is, but he makes up for his game elsewhere. Jost isn't so much soft as he is weak. He's willing to battle, just sucks at it.

Not to mention Saigeon. What a huge whiff that was, that again just makes me question the CHL scouting staff as a whole. I feel like most of the Avs better picks lately (or at least the ones that look the best a year or two down the line like Ranta, Kovalenko, and Ambrosio) have all come from outside the CHL, and that should be a concern. If those scouts have gone that long without a hit, aren't they due for a shakeup?