Line Combos: 2018-2019 Starting Roster

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Gil Fisher

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But KV doesn't have enough of an edge to waste a year of his ELC even though to me there's a pretty strong chance that he has a better career than Dano. I also think that Lemieux plays that role better than Petan. Lemieux reminds more of an Armia, which is the role I think we are trying to fill, than Petan does. Therefore, if it was possible to trade Petan for a defensive prospect that has the slight chance of replacing Chariot I would do it.

It's kind of funny, but with Stastny going to Vegas, and Josh/Jacob signing short term deals, we're close to enough cap space for Armia and Mason. Armia would take $1m mor than the player he'd replace and Mason about $3.5m more than Brossoit. That would leave us about $2.5 m below the cap and a bit short for bonuses.
 

Jets

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Can KC play Centre at the NHL level? Or is that never going to be an option?

Veslainen - Scheifele - Wheeler
Ehlers - Conner - Laine
Perreault - Little - Roslovic
Copp - Lowry - Tanev

Genuinely curious. I know he was listed as a LW/C in the USHL before so maybe?
 
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ello

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Just out of curiosity, I play a lot of EA’s NHL and it has a stat for time on attack. A lot of the time when matchmaking fails and I play a weak opponent I’ll crush them in time on attack, but I’m a selective shooter so shots can be fairly equal. It’s just that my shots are one-timers and other high danger shots, while the opponent’s shots are clearing attempts hitting the goalie etc.
So in that context the shots tell absolutely nothing, while time on attack shows who’s dominating. Wouldn’t that hold true for real games as well? Selective shooters will have worse Corsi so wouldn’t time on attack (literally possession) be a better measuring tool for possession?

@garret9
Yeah Patrick Kane is a possession monster in the O-zone in terms of ragging the puck and circling the opposing defence over and over again, but because he always looks for that high percentage play, his Corsi numbers are usually average. Just look up that legendary shift he and Panarin had vs the Isles a couple years ago. Over a whole minute of pure possession with only one shot attempt.
 

Adam da bomb

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It's kind of funny, but with Stastny going to Vegas, and Josh/Jacob signing short term deals, we're close to enough cap space for Armia and Mason. Armia would take $1m mor than the player he'd replace and Mason about $3.5m more than Brossoit. That would leave us about $2.5 m below the cap and a bit short for bonuses.
Of the two. I think Mason if he was healthier is the bigger lose. Would be great to have him as a back-up. Not to mention the draft picks we gave up as well.
 

winnipegger

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That goal from Wheeler tonight....if he can become more of a threat for the shot on the PP it is very good for the Jets. So often he is drifting in from the wall but it's clear he's going to try to force a pass through 5 people. Just shoot !

The PP unit of Scheif Buff Wheeler Laine Connor is going to kill it this year. Scheifele in the slot is just as deadly as Laine is on the 1 timer. If Wheeler can become a threat for the shot it's going to be impossible to stop that unit.
 
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garret9

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Just out of curiosity, I play a lot of EA’s NHL and it has a stat for time on attack. A lot of the time when matchmaking fails and I play a weak opponent I’ll crush them in time on attack, but I’m a selective shooter so shots can be fairly equal. It’s just that my shots are one-timers and other high danger shots, while the opponent’s shots are clearing attempts hitting the goalie etc.
So in that context the shots tell absolutely nothing, while time on attack shows who’s dominating. Wouldn’t that hold true for real games as well? Selective shooters will have worse Corsi so wouldn’t time on attack (literally possession) be a better measuring tool for possession?

@garret9

Sorry, I'm going to give a long answer first and then a short answer after... sorry

Long Version: Corsi History Lesson

Long ago, hockey bloggers, mostly fans of Albertan NHL teams, were looking for a way to help evaluate a player's effectiveness beyond their scoring. They knew that +/- sucked so they needed something better but along the same idea. They had been tracking scoring chances as a community project to study that kind of stuff.
Tim Barnes (a blogger that went by Vic Ferrari, now with the Washington Capitals) overheard an interview with (I think) the AGM of the Buffalo Sabres. The gentleman mentioned that the Sabres use shot attempts to get a general idea of goaltender workload.
Skipping ahead a bit, Barnes wrote an article titled "Possession is Everything." He showed the shot differentials for 3 games, noted that it matched his perception of the tilt in the ice for those games. He named it after Jim Corsi, saying that the person being interviewed was Jim, but in reality it was just because he didn't think the AGM's name matched and liked Jim's moustache. Ironically, while the person interviewed was not Corsi, it was his idea to look at shot attempts.
Skipping some more steps, we found out stuff about Corsi. Corsi predicting success better than goals or other similar stats. Corsi correlated highly with possession and time on attack. Corsi correlated highly with scoring chances, and didn't need to be tracked manually (and that differences in scoring chances and Corsi tends to regress towards Corsi).
When it comes to measuring itself, shot volume, Corsi is the best.
Shot volume matters, so it predicts success, and it seems to do so better than some other things (like possession*, goals, etc.) and especially so when adjusted for things like score effects and such.
Other things matter too, and so Corsi is both imperfect and can be improved upon. Interestingly, sometimes adding more doesn't always make it better.

Short version
Corsi correlates with possession, but that's more anecdotal (unless you want to specifically talk about possession).
True puck possession is nice, but the real reason we care about Corsi is that it both measures something that matters (shot volume) and helps you know which players/teams are likely to fall down or bounce back.
We have one *public* year of attack TOI, but my company has also tracked the same thing.
Turns out attack ice time and possession both are inferior to Corsi in evaluating players... but is still more information so it is useful.
 

KingBogo

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It's kind of funny, but with Stastny going to Vegas, and Josh/Jacob signing short term deals, we're close to enough cap space for Armia and Mason. Armia would take $1m mor than the player he'd replace and Mason about $3.5m more than Brossoit. That would leave us about $2.5 m below the cap and a bit short for bonuses.
You also need to add in our 23rd roster player. Assuming you are going off Cap Friendly. Most likely Petan who is still not included on the roster due to his 2-way contact. So if you had Armia there instead of Petan you would be sitting at $1.5 cap space compared to the $2.5 we have now allowing for bonuses. We would have had to move out a similar salary anyways. If you were to move a salary that would get something of value back you are looking at MP or maybe Myers.

IMO moving Mason has the least impact on this coming season. Brossoit has looked good so far. And if another backup was needed. Hutch has already been available for free on waivers and I'd watch for another handful of known goalies that will soon be available as teams cut down to their 23 man rosters. IMO at least Mason was the easy choice to clear space, he just happen to cost us a little bit to get rid of. Nothing that couldn't easily be filled from within.
 
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Gil Fisher

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You also need to add in our 23rd roster player. Assuming you are going off Cap Friendly. Most likely Petan who is still not included on the roster due to his 2-way contact. So if you had Armia there instead of Petan you would be sitting at $1.5 cap space compared to the $2.5 we have now allowing for bonuses. We would have had to move out a similar salary anyways. If you were to move a salary that would get something of value back you are looking at MP or maybe Myers.

IMO moving Mason has the least impact on this coming season. Brossoit has looked good so far. And if another backup was needed. Hutch has already been available for free on waivers and I'd watch for another handful of known goalies that will soon be available as teams cut down to their 23 man rosters. IMO at least Mason was the easy choice to clear space, he just happen to cost us a little bit to get rid of. Nothing that couldn't easily be filled from within.

I had the full 23 in my numbers, but had somehow deleted the Stuart cap hit of $583k. So gets to approximately the same place. Same point, did we jump the gun a bit? Maybe. But I doubt Chevy thought there'd be much chance of not getting at least one of Stastny, Morrissey, Trouba signed (or signed longer). I am with you on the draft picks. Would have much rather they shed Tyler Myers' $5.5 million cap hit for a 2nd rounder than the Mason/Armia deal. One of a couple of decisions from Chevy this offseason that I'm not thrilled about. (the other being Trouba playing out the year on a one year deal rather than signed/traded).
 
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MardyBum

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Some info from Dom's write up on the Jets on the Athletic.

As great as those two are, the second line isn’t without flaw. And that became extremely apparent after the trade deadline last year, when the team acquired Paul Stastny. Bryan Little seemed fine in that role up until that point. But once he was replaced, it was clear that he was holding the line back. In 340 minutes together last season, the trio held a 49.8 per cent Corsi and scored just 2.29 goals-per-60. Laine’s points-per-60 with Little was just 1.58, while Ehlers’ was at 1.41. In 211 minutes with Stastny, that improved to a 51.7 per cent Corsi and an incredible 4.54 goals-per-60, bumping Laine’s points-per-60 up to 3.2 and Ehlers’ up to 2.87. We’re obviously dealing with some small samples here and shooting percentage variability, but it’s still a trend worth mentioning, especially since the two youngsters weren’t exactly effective with Little in 2016-17, either.

I'm not going to be one to blame this solely on Little. But i think if Mo does start with ELL and it's not clicking he needs to just move on from it. All three of them being together tanks their numbers. They're all better with at least one guy off that line.

I like what @Gil Fisher listed. Reunite ELP which was fantastic. Put the best shooter on our team with the guys who can create the most opportunities for him.

Connor Rosie have great chemistry and can be the sheltered scoring line. CLT dominate whenever they get on the ice.
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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I'd love to see KVes light it up tonight and then we go:
KVes Scheif Wheels
Connor Roslo Laine
Ehlers little mp
Lowry line

Why is everybody trying to demote Ehlers? :huh:

Ehlers - Scheifele - Wheeler
Connor - Little - Laine
Perreault - Roslovic - Dano
Copp - Lowry - Tanev
 
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Tommigun

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Sorry, I'm going to give a long answer first and then a short answer after... sorry

Long Version: Corsi History Lesson

Long ago, hockey bloggers, mostly fans of Albertan NHL teams, were looking for a way to help evaluate a player's effectiveness beyond their scoring. They knew that +/- sucked so they needed something better but along the same idea. They had been tracking scoring chances as a community project to study that kind of stuff.
Tim Barnes (a blogger that went by Vic Ferrari, now with the Washington Capitals) overheard an interview with (I think) the AGM of the Buffalo Sabres. The gentleman mentioned that the Sabres use shot attempts to get a general idea of goaltender workload.
Skipping ahead a bit, Barnes wrote an article titled "Possession is Everything." He showed the shot differentials for 3 games, noted that it matched his perception of the tilt in the ice for those games. He named it after Jim Corsi, saying that the person being interviewed was Jim, but in reality it was just because he didn't think the AGM's name matched and liked Jim's moustache. Ironically, while the person interviewed was not Corsi, it was his idea to look at shot attempts.
Skipping some more steps, we found out stuff about Corsi. Corsi predicting success better than goals or other similar stats. Corsi correlated highly with possession and time on attack. Corsi correlated highly with scoring chances, and didn't need to be tracked manually (and that differences in scoring chances and Corsi tends to regress towards Corsi).
When it comes to measuring itself, shot volume, Corsi is the best.
Shot volume matters, so it predicts success, and it seems to do so better than some other things (like possession*, goals, etc.) and especially so when adjusted for things like score effects and such.
Other things matter too, and so Corsi is both imperfect and can be improved upon. Interestingly, sometimes adding more doesn't always make it better.

Short version
Corsi correlates with possession, but that's more anecdotal (unless you want to specifically talk about possession).
True puck possession is nice, but the real reason we care about Corsi is that it both measures something that matters (shot volume) and helps you know which players/teams are likely to fall down or bounce back.
We have one *public* year of attack TOI, but my company has also tracked the same thing.
Turns out attack ice time and possession both are inferior to Corsi in evaluating players... but is still more information so it is useful.

Thanks for the thorough reply! Really appreciate it.

I’m surprised if Corsi really is better at evaluating players than time on attack, because as I said at least in video games toa is far more descriptive of performance.
 

DRW204

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I don’t see Maurice breaking up x-Scheifele-Wheeler. We were a 110 pt team prior to Stastny and had injuries to our top RHD, and 1 and 3C. I’d like to see Little away from Laine though.

Laine-Scheif-Wheeler
Connor/MP-Little-Ehlers
Connor/MP-Roslovic-Armia
CLT
Morrissey-Trouba
Niku-Buff
Kulikov-Myers

Now, if Armia’s looking for 2M+ I move on from him and give Lemieux a look. I also think Vesalainen could flirt with a spot by the end of the year.
Laine-Scheifele-Wheeler
Connor-Little-Ehlers
MP-Roslovic-Vesalainen/Dano
CLT

I think Maurice won't put Connor-Roslovic-KV/Dano/Petan on a line together. 3 kids on a line is like the plague for NHL coaches. I think MP will help insulate the kids on that line well, could play C in a pinch if required too (have LHS and RHS option on the same line)
 

Mortimer Snerd

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You also need to add in our 23rd roster player. Assuming you are going off Cap Friendly. Most likely Petan who is still not included on the roster due to his 2-way contact. So if you had Armia there instead of Petan you would be sitting at $1.5 cap space compared to the $2.5 we have now allowing for bonuses. We would have had to move out a similar salary anyways. If you were to move a salary that would get something of value back you are looking at MP or maybe Myers.

IMO moving Mason has the least impact on this coming season. Brossoit has looked good so far. And if another backup was needed. Hutch has already been available for free on waivers and I'd watch for another handful of known goalies that will soon be available as teams cut down to their 23 man rosters. IMO at least Mason was the easy choice to clear space, he just happen to cost us a little bit to get rid of. Nothing that couldn't easily be filled from within.

I don't think there can be any question that Mason was the obvious place to cut cap. Unfortunately we had to pay quite a high price to get someone to take him off our hands.

We had several other possibilities that could have returned something in exchange. Both Myers and Perreault would have done the job. There is a good chance that both need to go after this year anyway. They would have produced worthwhile returns.

We also could have done the same thing with Mason that Mtl has done, bought him out. That would have left us with 1.366/yr cap hit for 2 years. That would have done what was needed. If a little more headroom was desired we still could have traded Armia, got something good in return and kept the other smaller pieces.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Thanks for the thorough reply! Really appreciate it.

I’m surprised if Corsi really is better at evaluating players than time on attack, because as I said at least in video games toa is far more descriptive of performance.

Actually, his 'Long Version' was a very short summary of the whole story. :laugh: He has published the proofs of all of those statements he made. They are beyond convincing. They are compelling.

You could read through this thread;
2018-19 stats and underlying metrics thread

(the first post has some good links) and its predecessors for previous years. Or you could just take my (and his) word for it. :)
 

Flair Hay

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So what are the chances Lemieux beats out Petan and/or Dano for a spot this year? I'm coming around to the idea more and more.
 

Howard Chuck

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So what are the chances Lemieux beats out Petan and/or Dano for a spot this year? I'm coming around to the idea more and more.

I thought Lemieux made a very good case for himself last game. If he gets to play with Roslovic and Ehlers tonight, I think they will be very good. I'm really enjoying seeing some different combinations since we have so much freaking talent to move around.

At this point it's more about finding chemistry because everyone has talent.
 

winnipegger

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I could totally get behind Laine Scheif Wheeler as it keeps the Scheif Wheeler tandem together. If Laine has improved his game that line might be dominant. It's going to be a 2a and 2b situation with Roslo and Little. Still not sure how good Roslo is.
 

Daximus

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I could totally get behind Laine Scheif Wheeler as it keeps the Scheif Wheeler tandem together. If Laine has improved his game that line might be dominant. It's going to be a 2a and 2b situation with Roslo and Little. Still not sure how good Roslo is.

If that is the case I think we still keep Roslo as a 3C. Shelter him behind both Little and Lowry's line as much as possible. Get them offensive matchups until he's ready to take on tougher matchups.
 
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garret9

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Thanks for the thorough reply! Really appreciate it.

I’m surprised if Corsi really is better at evaluating players than time on attack, because as I said at least in video games toa is far more descriptive of performance.

Everything is specific to the environment that things are based in.

For example: my company works with lower levels as well. In major junior the gap in value between a good goal stat (regressed goal%) vs Corsi is way smaller than in the NHL.
 

KingBogo

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I don't think there can be any question that Mason was the obvious place to cut cap. Unfortunately we had to pay quite a high price to get someone to take him off our hands.

We had several other possibilities that could have returned something in exchange. Both Myers and Perreault would have done the job. There is a good chance that both need to go after this year anyway. They would have produced worthwhile returns.

We also could have done the same thing with Mason that Mtl has done, bought him out. That would have left us with 1.366/yr cap hit for 2 years. That would have done what was needed. If a little more headroom was desired we still could have traded Armia, got something good in return and kept the other smaller pieces.
I don't share the same concern over the cost of dumping Mason. If we went with Helly & Mason we are among the top couple teams in terms of money spent on goaltending. Right in behind Montreal with Price's $10.5 M cap hit. No way a team spending top starters money to their # 1 should be carrying a $4.1 M backup. The cost of dumping him was Armia a 4th and a 7th. Chevy needed the space as he was still chasing Stastny and didn't have any of his RFA's signed. Armia while a serviceable player is easy enough replaced from within. I'd argue a slimmed down Dano easily replaces his production at 1/2 the cost. Sure we could have moved Myers or MP, but Myers is our 4th best defenseman and MP is an important middle 6 winger that drives play and can be put anywhere you need in the lineup. I'm assuming you'd want futures in exchange for either of them as a hockey trade likely brings back comparable salary.

I'd take MP or Myers + Brossoit over Mason and Armia quite easily. And from what we have seen from Brossoit and the total lack of interest in Mason, we may just have the better backup out of the 2. I think team's see Mason as damaged goods after last season and no one is desperate enough to take a flier on him. IMO Chevy had the depth to fix a mistake and acted on it.
 
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