League News: 2018-19 NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) Vol. 4

[RandyHolt]

Yea...so what happened to Peate after hockey? Probert?

So you often saw them noticeably injured after fights?

No one thinks getting punched in the head is healthy.

 

[searle]

Can anyone establish causality rather than correlation when it comes to fighting and bad things happening after hockey? It's possible that's just the way some of these guys were, and they ended up being goons because that was one way to cope or make money. There have been plenty of fighters and extremely physical players that had no such outcomes, and plenty of "skill" players who get depressed after their careers--the only thing they've known their whole life--is over. Nobody talks about those because it's easy and obvious to point to the extreme examples and make a connection.

Concussion research is constantly improving but one of the difficulties is that (from what I recall) some brain injuries can only be diagnosed as part of the post mortem....

I think the current shift is towards the thought that lots of "micro concussions" can accumulate and result in damage that was previously only linked with big traumatic events.

There are a growing number of links being made between concussions and later onset depression - it unfortunately seems that by the time the impact is known a lot of people will have suffered, and possibly succumbed.

Certainly a sobering thought when you someone get dropped in a fight/woozy after a hit.

Oshie comes to mind as a concern close to home

 

[g00n]

Concussion research is constantly improving but one of the difficulties is that (from what I recall) some brain injuries can only be diagnosed as part of the post mortem....

I think the current shift is towards the thought that lots of "micro concussions" can accumulate and result in damage that was previously only linked with big traumatic events.

There are a growing number of links being made between concussions and later onset depression - it unfortunately seems that by the time the impact is known a lot of people will have suffered, and possibly succumbed.

Certainly a sobering thought when you someone get dropped in a fight/woozy after a hit.

Oshie comes to mind as a concern close to home

Yes and the growing concern and science involved in head injuries are well-known, but again from a CAUSAL standpoint can we prove that fighting and hitting increase one's chances of early death and disability in a scientifically significant way, compared to others who have not had such outcomes?

One theory is that some of these guys are already f***ed up in many ways and that's what attracts them to the violent jobs. Then when their careers are over they have nothing left to get the dopamine pumps going the way they used to so they spiral downward looking for fixes, often landing in very bad places psychologically.

I'm not disputing the science behind brain injuries, I'm questioning the assumption that fighting=brain trauma=death/depression/drugs/suicide and there's nothing else involved in the equation, or any important exceptions.

 

[searle]

Yes and the growing concern and science involved in head injuries are well-known, but again from a CAUSAL standpoint can we prove that fighting and hitting increase one's chances of early death and disability in a scientifically significant way, compared to others who have not had such outcomes?

One theory is that some of these guys are already ****ed up in many ways and that's what attracts them to the violent jobs. Then when their careers are over they have nothing left to get the dopamine pumps going the way they used to so they spiral downward looking for fixes, often landing in very bad places psychologically.

I'm not disputing the science behind brain injuries, I'm questioning the assumption that fighting=brain trauma=death/depression/drugs/suicide and there's nothing else involved in the equation, or any important exceptions.

Fair point, you have to be a certain kind of person to be ok with being paid to punch someone in the face while someone else tries to punch you in your face - personality may well be a factor when it comes to enforcers and how they cope after they hang up the skates.

 

[RandyHolt]

I feel like some have overly focused on fighting WRT brain injury risk within the sport, and may still do. Because they are violent high profile events where you see a fist hit a head.

I think open ice body checks also jostle the brain proper and do their fare share of damage, only more subtly. Checked without direct head contact and the whiplash effect is what smashes our mushy brain against the cranium, doing the damage that way.

Elbows to the head of an suspecting player seem to have an awful high concussion rate. In fact, I would almost wager that a concussion risk is higher for an unsuspecting player (checked or elbowed with head down), vs a suspecting player in a fight, taking a punch, fully prepared for it e.g. neck stiffened to counter the blow.

 

[kicksavedave]

Yes and the growing concern and science involved in head injuries are well-known, but again from a CAUSAL standpoint can we prove that fighting and hitting increase one's chances of early death and disability in a scientifically significant way, compared to others who have not had such outcomes?

One theory is that some of these guys are already ****ed up in many ways and that's what attracts them to the violent jobs. Then when their careers are over they have nothing left to get the dopamine pumps going the way they used to so they spiral downward looking for fixes, often landing in very bad places psychologically.

I'm not disputing the science behind brain injuries, I'm questioning the assumption that fighting=brain trauma=death/depression/drugs/suicide and there's nothing else involved in the equation, or any important exceptions.

The overall science is too young right now to conclusively rule out other casual factors. Until they can diagnose CTE before an autopsy, it's all just circumstantial and theoretical, what's happening to Peat. But far too many football players and hockey players of a certain style (enforcers) die young with CTE being the cause of multiple physical and mental health problems to look at it as anything other than the cause. Not to mention boxers.

Is not just depression from no longer being in the spotlight. It's memory loss. Violent mood swings. Other physical pain. Other ailments. Things these people didn't have prior to their careers, but shouldn't have at their age. We're just scratching the surface in terms of the science of how harmful it is to repeatedly bash your brain against your own skull.

 

[searle]

Might just be panic setting in, but people are even calling for football (soccer for you yanks) players under 18 to not be allowed to head the ball, as again it's feared that lots of small impacts to the head/brain might add up and result in an increased risk of degenerative brain diseases later in life.

It's starting to seem like anything that impacts the head (body checks, falling into the boards, being punched, maybe even pucks to the head as a goalie) starts chipping away at your chances of having all your marbles later in life.

 

[kicksavedave]

It's starting to seem like anything that impacts the head (body checks, falling into the boards, being punched, maybe even pucks to the head as a goalie) starts chipping away at your chances of having all your marbles later in life.

Yeah that's a safe bet. The brain isn't meant to be jostled like this.

 

[g00n]

The overall science is too young right now to conclusively rule out other casual factors. Until they can diagnose CTE before an autopsy, it's all just circumstantial and theoretical, what's happening to Peat. But far too many football players and hockey players of a certain style (enforcers) die young with CTE being the cause of multiple physical and mental health problems to look at it as anything other than the cause. Not to mention boxers.

Is not just depression from no longer being in the spotlight. It's memory loss. Violent mood swings. Other physical pain. Other ailments. Things these people didn't have prior to their careers, but shouldn't have at their age. We're just scratching the surface in terms of the science of how harmful it is to repeatedly bash your brain against your own skull.

How do you know they didn't have problems prior to their careers, or "shouldn't have at their age"? We don't know that in many cases. That's part of the challenge in drawing conclusions of this kind. We can't ethically engage in studies on people to test such things, and we also lack a clear control of an identical person with an identical life.

 

[hb12xchamps]

Might just be panic setting in, but people are even calling for football (soccer for you yanks) players under 18 to not be allowed to head the ball, as again it's feared that lots of small impacts to the head/brain might add up and result in an increased risk of degenerative brain diseases later in life.

It's starting to seem like anything that impacts the head (body checks, falling into the boards, being punched, maybe even pucks to the head as a goalie) starts chipping away at your chances of having all your marbles later in life.

That’s crazy. I’ve played soccer all my life, including playing at the D3 college level and I can 100% say I’ve never seen anyone diagnosed with a concussion because of a header. Ive seen plenty of guys, myself included, win a header and take an elbow to the head or a head on head collision and get diagnosed with concussions but that’s bound to happen in any competitive sport.

I think it would be very hard to do a full study claiming that heading a soccer ball over the course of a playing career would be the cause of any brain injuries. There’s too many outside factors that come into play. You could have head trauma or concussions from playing other sports over the course of your life and you could have head trauma just in everyday life. Everyone is different. I’ve seen guys barely hit their head and get knocked out and I’ve seen guys take a full blown elbow and nothing is wrong.

The whole CTE thing is definitely real. I mean it’s been proven a number of times. Like you said in other posts it’s too early in the science/study portion to generalize and diagnose without someone dying. For every Probert, Junior Seau or Boogard there’s a ton of other “tough” players that are completely fine. Following the AHL and the Bears for the last decade I’ve seen a ton of guys who could chuck em (Jeremy Yablonski, Jon “Nasty” Mirasty, Kip Brennan, Joel Rechlicz, Stevie Mac, etc.) and none of these guys have shown any CTE signs (that we know of). Yablonski and Mirasty used to fight 20-40 times a year and some of their bouts were straight knucks being thrown repeatedly until someone was bloody. If you’re a fighting fan look their fights up they are crazy.

Anyway, this rant was specifically directed at you but you had the post about soccer so I thought I’d chime into the discussion

 

[g00n]

Interrupted by a call so wasn't able to complete the thought.

Again, I'm not saying brain trauma is good, or that CTE doesn't exist, or that there aren't guys out there who have had bad outcomes as a result of sports injuries. I'm saying the conclusions we're drawing include a lot of assumptions.

Boxing was mentioned. Here's the British Journal of Medicine:

Boxing and the brain

Whilst there exists great controversy regarding the ethics of boxing, one of the key medical issues is the risk of a boxer developing CTE either during or after his boxing career. Recent evidence suggests that exposure to boxing alone is insufficient to cause this condition.

Hmm, kind of counter-intuitive given what we hear.

In the early stages of this condition, the symptoms are transient and reversible, however, in the later stages they are progressive.

Ok, seems to suggest that early detection is the key, not elimination of contact altogether.

He studied the brains of 15 retired boxers and retrospectively studied their fight histories. While a number of characteristic changes were noted in these brains, it is the boxers' histories that deserve specific note. Of the fighters studied, their exposure to boxing ranged between 300 and 700 bouts in the course of their careers. This was in addition to sparring and other fight training that would have occurred.

The issue then that needs consideration is that in this day and age we would seldom see a fighter with such a record. Even the top professionals report fight careers of 30–50 fights before retirement, an order of magnitude less than that described in Corsellis' landmark study.

Recent research in boxers has also suggested that CTE in boxers may be associated with a particular genetic predisposition. The apolipoprotein E ε-4 gene (ApoE), a susceptibility gene for late onset familial and sporadic Alzheimer's disease, may be associated with an increased risk of CTE in boxers.1, 6, 9

In a non-boxing population, ApoE polymorphism was significantly associated with death and adverse outcomes following acute traumatic brain injury as seen in a neurosurgical unit.10 In a recent prospective study, ApoE genotypes were tested for their ability to predict days of unconsciousness and functional outcome after six months.11 There was a strongassociation demonstrated between the ApoE allele and poor clinical outcome.

Furthermore, ApoE deficient (knockout) mice have been shown to have memory deficits, neurochemical changes, and diminished recovery from closed head injury when compared to controls.12 It is suggested that ApoE plays an important role in both neuronal repair and antioxidant activity resulting in ApoE knockout mice exhibiting an impaired ability to recover from closed head injury.

Which means not only was the benchmark study probably done on outliers (like drug tests that pump 1,000 times the normal dose into rats) but there appears to be a genetic component.

CTE study is evolving daily but so is the study of genetics as it relates to health and predispositions. Hard to draw sweeping conclusions about a person's life choices or problems after sports when this is the case.

 

[kicksavedave]

How do you know they didn't have problems prior to their careers, or "shouldn't have at their age"? We don't know that in many cases. That's part of the challenge in drawing conclusions of this kind. We can't ethically engage in studies on people to test such things, and we also lack a clear control of an identical person with an identical life.

I think it isn't that hard to have a medical history on a guy like Peat to determine if he was prone to these sort of symptoms prior to his NHL career. Not difficult at all. It's just not something you're going to see reported on publicly. And again, the studies are new, the science unfinished. It's entirely possible that susceptibility to CTE is a genetic thing, like susceptibility to cancer is. It's entirely possible that some people will suffer from it more easily than others will. It's also not easy to quantitatively measure all the blows one takes and compare them to another person.

But I think no one disagrees, getting your head smashed in a lot is bad for for long term health. There's a lot of variables that we still don't know but that is pretty much a given. The brain is fragile. Handle with care.

 

[RandyHolt]

I wonder the effect very early age falls have, in the long term chances of developing CTE.

Probably everyones 1 year old kid hit their head.... hard. Many times. Some, MANY more times than others. I am only an internet doctor, but it would sure seem a kid that hit his head a lot, is going to be at greater risk, if only short term. Long term... who knows. But this sure seems cumulative, right?

Ironically, the hardest I have been hit in the head in the past 10-20 years... teenage soccer fiend in the hood kicked one as hard as he could off the back of my head, as he was trying to show off to some girls. There was a lax goal about 10 yards off to my side that he was trying to kick the ball into from about 25 yards. He probably tried to bend it like beckham and failed. Man that hurt and I was in a daze for 5 minutes. No noticeable short nor long term effects, but I fear that did some damage that has not reared its ugly head as yet.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Given what we know about brain trauma now, taking punches is clearly not good for you.

However I look at boxing, where guys have clearly taken a lot more head shots (on average), and you don’t see the same self destructive behavior as often (or so it seems and I’m a life long hardcore boxing fan). Hard drugs/alcohol seem to be a recurring theme with many of the guys who are the most self-destructive, in both sports.

Makes me wonder, about the chicken and the egg scenario for these recent high profile hockey fighters.....were they effective antagonists in their sport because of their mental makeup, but once mixed with brain trauma, they go completely off the rails, or are these simply individuals with their own demons already who just got worse once the brain injuries occur? Is the little bit of “crazy”that makes, and maybe is needed to be an effective NHL antagonist also what’s worse when mixed with melon damage? If Stephen Peat goes on to be a car salesman instead of a pro hockey player does he have demons still? Same with a Probert?

 

[kicksavedave]

I wonder the effect very early age falls have, in the long term chances of developing CTE.

Probably everyones 1 year old kid hit their head.... hard. Many times. Some, MANY more times than others. I am only an internet doctor, but it would sure seem a kid that hit his head a lot, is going to be at greater risk, if only short term. Long term... who knows. But this sure seems cumulative, right?

Ironically, the hardest I have been hit in the head in the past 10-20 years... teenage soccer fiend in the hood kicked one as hard as he could off the back of my head, as he was trying to show off to some girls. There was a lax goal about 10 yards off to my side that he was trying to kick the ball into from about 25 yards. He probably tried to bend it like beckham and failed. Man that hurt and I was in a daze for 5 minutes. No noticeable short nor long term effects, but I fear that did some damage that has not reared its ugly head as yet.

I dunno about falls which are a rare thing even though it seems every kid has one or two or more... but there have been studies recently which show that kids who play tackle football before the age of 12 end up with higher rates of depression, ADD, mood swings and other concussion related symptoms than their peers who did not play tackle football. The evidence seems to show that the brain support infrastructure is more susceptible to being damaged in youth than it is when the brain/body is more fully mature - factoring in that the hits the kids take aren't as violent yet as they are in HS, college and the NFL.

Youth Football Linked to Earlier Brain Problems | Research

The researchers, who controlled for total years of play, level of play, and factored in what decade athletes started playing (to account for different styles of play and protection through the years), found that each year younger that athletes began to play tackle football correlated with an earlier onset of cognitive problems by 2.4 years, and behavioral and mood problems by 2.5 years.

Here is one study which documents visually through scans the physical change in the brain structure for these kids. It's pretty scary how little we know about what this does long term, but it is measurable the changes it causes in the brain.

Youth football changes nerve fibers in brain

The MRI results showed that the football players developed changes in the corpus callosum, a critically important band of nerve fibers that connects the two halves of the brain. The primary role of the corpus callosum is to integrate cognitive, motor and sensory functions between the two sides of the brain.
There were signs of greater axial strain (contraction) in some parts of the corpus callosum, and indications of radial strain (expansion) in other parts.
"The body of the corpus callosum is a unique structure that's somewhat like a bridge connecting the left and right hemispheres of brain," Dr. Kim said. "When it's subjected to external forces, some areas will contract and others will expand, just like when a bridge is twisting in the wind."

 

[tenken00]

Well at least one thing is that out of all the playoff teams in the league, the Caps respond to physical play. They actually play better when the other team tries to make it chippy. Or at least it wakes them out of their lackadaisicalness.

So while Columbus is big and and try to make play physical, I think it'll be less of an advantage for them against us than if they play anyone else. Playing tough that is.

 

[kicksavedave]

Well at least one thing is that out of all the playoff teams in the league, the Caps respond to physical play. They actually play better when the other team tries to make it chippy. Or at least it wakes them out of their lackadaisicalness.

So while Columbus is big and and try to make play physical, I think it'll be less of an advantage for them against us than if they play anyone else. Playing tough that is.

It's a great point. No one, not even the big bad Bruins, is going to intimidate the Caps. TB tried and it was cute and all but they got their asses handed right back to them, and a few teeth. TB definitely has the most skill in these Loffs, but grit, not as much as the Caps have. The tougher the games get the more the Caps advantage. That's in part because their leaders are all battle tanks - Ovi, Orpik, Wilson, Oshie.

And frankly, if the Caps can maintain their concentration for 60 minutes instead of 55 minutes, I ain't scared of the Pens either. We completely handled them in our last game except for an absurd 4 minute meltdown that cost us 3 goals. The rest of the game we were stifling on them.

 

[Blades of Steel]

Out west..

Do the coyotes make it in over the avalanche? The avs have a rough few games left.. gonna be close

 

[tenken00]

It's a great point. No one, not even the big bad Bruins, is going to intimidate the Caps. TB tried and it was cute and all but they got their asses handed right back to them, and a few teeth. TB definitely has the most skill in these Loffs, but grit, not as much as the Caps have. The tougher the games get the more the Caps advantage. That's in part because their leaders are all battle tanks - Ovi, Orpik, Wilson, Oshie.

And frankly, if the Caps can maintain their concentration for 60 minutes instead of 55 minutes, I ain't scared of the Pens either. We completely handled them in our last game except for an absurd 4 minute meltdown that cost us 3 goals. The rest of the game we were stifling on them.

It feels so weird saying that about the Caps. But they really do respond when teams try to take it to them.

If someone tries to take a bit of the ol' ultraviolence to them, the Caps just go "please sir, can I have some more?" . They can be downright mean.

The Hurricanes might be a bunch of jerks, but if you think about it, man the Caps are a bunch of a--holes.

 

[laxplayer]

Might just be panic setting in, but people are even calling for football (soccer for you yanks) players under 18 to not be allowed to head the ball, as again it's feared that lots of small impacts to the head/brain might add up and result in an increased risk of degenerative brain diseases later in life.

It's starting to seem like anything that impacts the head (body checks, falling into the boards, being punched, maybe even pucks to the head as a goalie) starts chipping away at your chances of having all your marbles later in life.

Not just hockey and football and other contact/collision sports... even soccer players get it from heading the ball 20 times a game (and the inevitable head to head collisions on contested headers).

FIFA’s CTE Problem: Are Soccer Regulators Doing Enough to Prevent Brain Injuries? – Rolling Stone

 

[laxplayer]

I think it would be very hard to do a full study claiming that heading a soccer ball over the course of a playing career would be the cause of any brain injuries. There’s too many outside factors that come into play. You could have head trauma or concussions from playing other sports over the course of your life and you could have head trauma just in everyday life. Everyone is different. I’ve seen guys barely hit their head and get knocked out and I’ve seen guys take a full blown elbow and nothing is wrong.

Small study here...
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/brains-demented-former-soccer-pros-show-classic-signs-cte

And this larger study in particular...
Effects of Soccer Heading on Brain Structure and Function

 

[kicksavedave]

It feels so weird saying that about the Caps. But they really do respond when teams try to take it to them.

If someone tries to take a bit of the ol' ultraviolence to them, the Caps just go "please sir, can I have some more?" . They can be downright mean.

The Hurricanes might be a bunch of jerks, but if you think about it, man the Caps are a bunch of a--holes.

With the exception of a few Ron Wilson and maybe some Gabby years, the Caps have always been pretty solid old school hockey, at least compared to the rest of the league. Maybe not compared to the 75 Broad St Bullies of course. They are the current John Wayne toilet paper of hockey - rough and tough and don't take shit from anyone.

 

[tenken00]

With the exception of a few Ron Wilson and maybe some Gabby years, the Caps have always been pretty solid old school hockey, at least compared to the rest of the league. Maybe not compared to the 75 Broad St Bullies of course. They are the current John Wayne toilet paper of hockey - rough and tough and don't take **** from anyone.

I started paying attention to the Caps in '02 with the Jagr trade. Became a true fan after the Ovie draft. I've heard stories about the Caps of old like Dale Hunter. But most of my memories of tough Caps guys are those of like Donald Brashear or John Erskine. Bleh

 

[VaCaps Fan]

Wilson scores goals when other teams try to get “physical”.

 

[kicksavedave]

I started paying attention to the Caps in '02 with the Jagr trade. Became a true fan after the Ovie draft. I've heard stories about the Caps of old like Dale Hunter. But most of my memories of tough Caps guys are those of like Donald Brashear or John Erskine. Bleh

Its not always so much about names, or even having an enforcer like a Brashear on the roster, its how and when the team deploys its toughness. Caps in 2000 were playing buttery soft and teams would physically have their way with us. Ron Wilson would bench guys for taking penalties even if they were the physical, message sending types of penalties that can be good for team chemistry. Caps (McPhee) traded for an established tough enforcer named Jim MacKenzie, but Ron Wilson almost never played him and he almost never fought or stuck up for the other players. If an opponent manhandled one of the Caps skilled players, usually he would get a mean stare from Joe Reekie or something equally pathetic, but he wouldn't get his ass kicked. So they would keep doing it. This didn't happen in the 90s under Murray or Jim Shoenfeld. Those teams stuck up for each other. But Wilsons teams were soft and fragile.

Flash forward to today. Someone takes a run at Kuzy, Tom Wilson breaks his face apart like he did to Cole. Remember when Wilson went ape shit over Coburn pulling Kuzy's jersey off vs TB last playoffs- very next shift after the penalties expire TW pounds him good. Guy gets cheesy with Holtby, he has 3 players simultaneously cross checking him and face washing him. Other teams still try to get rough with these Caps, but they pay a heavy price for it when they do and it doesn't last that long. These Caps stick up for each other and don't put up with anyone taking liberties. Thats team chemistry. And it's not just Wilson, its Orpik, its Oshie, even Ovi will step in to let someone know they've crossed the line. Guys on THIS team know they all have each other's backs. Hell Jakob Vrana took on Gourde. They're all willing!

I f***ing love it!