2016 Hall Of Fame Results: Griffey Jr, Piazza inducted into the HoF

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Again, I can't believe I have to spell it out for you. For the last time. When I say "don't get caught," I mean "don't do it." Tell me those "tons of players" on PEDs who are now in the Hall. That's PED's, not restorative drugs. And, even if some slipped in, we should be limiting any mistakes in future inductions.

Bonds and Clemens did it. It's easy to see when you look at circumstantial evidence and testimony. It's one thing for you to say "PED users should be in the Hall." It's an entirely different matter to say "Bonds and Clemens never did it." Sure, everyone is crazy but you.

Spell it out however you want, your point still sucks.

Where did I say tons of ped users are in the hof?

As for Bonds and Clemens. Yes, it's more likely than not that they did do them, but like a court of law, the burden of proof is with the accusers, and neither have ever been convicted of anything. Bonds' perjury charge was also removed.

Plain and simple, banning players because of alleged drug use is a slippery slope. The logic behind it is an absolute fallacy.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Spell it out however you want, your point still sucks.

Where did I say tons of ped users are in the hof?

As for Bonds and Clemens. Yes, it's more likely than not that they did do them, but like a court of law, the burden of proof is with the accusers, and neither have ever been convicted of anything. Bonds' perjury charge was also removed.

Plain and simple, banning players because of alleged drug use is a slippery slope. The logic behind it is an absolute fallacy.

My point is "don't do it." It doesn't suck, just because you say so.

You said tons of users. Why bring it up unless to make it relevant to the Hall. We are not holding Clemens and Bonds to the same standards of any joe blow that can play in the MLB. Compare them to the PED users in the Hall.

The Hall of Fame isn't subject to the court of law. It's not in the Constitution that you have the right to make the Hall.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

My point is "don't do it." It doesn't suck, just because you say so.

You said tons of users. Why bring it up unless to make it relevant to the Hall. We are not holding Clemens and Bonds to the same standards of any joe blow that can play in the MLB. Compare them to the PED users in the Hall.

The Hall of Fame isn't subject to the court of law. It's not in the Constitution that you have the right to make the Hall.

I said tons of players have used drugs in the history of baseball, because there are a lot of people who like to believe drug use and cheating was invented by Jose Canseco in the late 80's. Players did amphetamines for decades like they were candy and no one batted an eyelash. Amphetamines have proven effects, ped's are widely subjective.

Imo, drugs are drugs. Players did greenies and cocaine for a reasons other than just feeling good.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I said tons of players have used drugs in the history of baseball, because there are a lot of people who like to believe drug use and cheating was invented by Jose Canseco in the late 80's. Players did amphetamines for decades like they were candy and no one batted an eyelash. Amphetamines have proven effects, ped's are widely subjective.

Imo, drugs are drugs. Players did greenies and cocaine for a reasons other than just feeling good.

There are different degrees of drug type and use. Amphetamines are nowhere near as effective as PEDs when it comes to enhancing your performance. And amount of use matters too. Hank Aaron trying out a greenie once is not the same a years of HGH. This isn't a black and white issue, and players like Bonds and Clemens are not being singled out unfairly.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

There are different degrees of drug type and use. Amphetamines are nowhere near as effective as PEDs when it comes to enhancing your performance. And amount of use matters too. Hank Aaron trying out a greenie once is not the same a years of HGH. This isn't a black and white issue, and players like Bonds and Clemens are not being singled out unfairly.

Hank Aaron didn't just try it once, just as Bill Clinton didn't just smoke pot and not inhale it.

There is subjective proof what certain ped's do for performance. There is literal proof what amphetamines and stimulants do for the body. You can't say one is better or more effective than the other because you simply don't know. It varies by individual. Hell, Chris Davis has a script for Adderall. Who's to say that doesn't help him more than any ped would?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Hank Aaron didn't just try it once, just as Bill Clinton didn't just smoke pot and not inhale it.

There is subjective proof what certain ped's do for performance. There is literal proof what amphetamines and stimulants do for the body. You can't say one is better or more effective than the other because you simply don't know. It varies by individual. Hell, Chris Davis has a script for Adderall. Who's to say that doesn't help him more than any ped would?

Subjective proof regarding PEDs?!

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Subjective proof regarding PEDs?!

That's what I said.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Baseball was watchable before and after Griffey. Great, phenomenal player, but that's hyperbolic.

Not if you consider what the strike of 94 did.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Not if you consider what the strike of 94 did.

It was only unwatchable because it wasn't around.

The product was fine before and after.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

It was only unwatchable because it wasn't around.

The product was fine before and after.

I don't think people realize how youth participation and age range watching interest isn't favorable. Baseball isn't widely popular with today's youth and hasn't been for awhile. I can't recall the year this is from until now but next to football it has the second highest drop in percentage of youth playing. Only reason football has a drop is because of all the concussion stuff(which I agree with. If I had a kid I wouldn't let him play in a structured league with pads and helmets)

 

[Elvis P]

...There is subjective proof what certain ped's do for performance. There is literal proof what amphetamines and stimulants do for the body. You can't say one is better or more effective than the other because you simply don't know. It varies by individual. ...

The bottom line then, is that doping seems to work VERY WELL. It’s still difficult, if not impossible, to put an exact number to the benefit, though the data of Franke et al give a pretty good indication that it’s at least 15% in those power based sports.

http://sportsscientists.com/2007/06/drugs-work-but-by-how-much/

Wrong. Why do you think so many athletes in so many sports have used PEDS? Ever heard of Lance Armstrong? They work! The question is the authenticity of some of the steroid era hitters's accomplishments. No hitter in baseball history outside the steroid era has ever hit the way some guys hit during the steroid era. The reason why is that it's impossible without cheating. It's not authentic. Why is this the end of the world? Just accept it and move on.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Oh right, I forgot that cycling and baseball are basically the exact same sport and use the exact same skill set. Pretty sure that Lance Armstrong could have won a few silver sluggers in his doping days.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I don't think people realize how youth participation and age range watching interest isn't favorable. Baseball isn't widely popular with today's youth and hasn't been for awhile. I can't recall the year this is from until now but next to football it has the second highest drop in percentage of youth playing. Only reason football has a drop is because of all the concussion stuff(which I agree with. If I had a kid I wouldn't let him play in a structured league with pads and helmets)

That's an issue, for sure, but that doesn't mean the game itself isn't watchable or good. Just too many options these days, and speaking by experience the game is very expensive.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Oh right, I forgot that cycling and baseball are basically the exact same sport and use the exact same skill set. Pretty Lance Armstrong could have won a few silver sluggers in his doping days.

He's literally replying to my response that they're effects are subjective with...subjective data. Then gives a subjective statement in bold.

Hilarious.

Ped's haven't gone away. They've actually improved in quality as all do products with time, but yet there aren't these huge home run totals anymore. This would lead me to believe there were other factor that contributed more to these hr totals than ped's themselves (like the juiced baseballs), but people are free to believe what they want. The Mitchell report is full of nothing but hofers...

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Kids aren't playing sports in general as much. People completely discount that.

 

[Elvis P]

Some of these posts are so hard to read. "Pre-90s baseball players used PEDS". "PEDs don't work". I checked with a couple colleagues of mine and they concurred that they would be very concerned if any of their patients were so far removed from reality that they believed statements such as this.

 

[Elvis P]

Oh right, I forgot that cycling and baseball are basically the exact same sport and use the exact same skill set. Pretty sure that Lance Armstrong could have won a few silver sluggers in his doping days.

You do have the right to live in your fantasy world, as long as you don't hurt others or yourself. In your mind 2 + 2 does not = 4 if you don't believe that it does. There's reality and people over 35 outside HF boards. Everyone knows that PEDS work (THAT'S WHY PEOPLE USE THEM!) and that pre 90s baseball players did not use them. Next!

 

[darko]

Off course PEDs work. You add strength and it helps your recovery. The debates are about how much it helps a baseball player because as a hitter you still need to get the barrel on the ball. PEDs don't improve your eye sight, reaction time or your hand-eye coordination. Cycling example is a stupid one because it requires different skillset to baseball. PEDs can help the cyclist a lot because it's all strength and endurance. Baseball not so much. It'd be like entering a spelling bee and deciding to cycle to enhance your chances of winning.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

You do have the right to live in your fantasy world, as long as you don't hurt others or yourself. In your mind 2 + 2 does not = 4 if you don't believe that it does. There's reality and people over 35 outside HF boards. Everyone knows that PEDS work (THAT'S WHY PEOPLE USE THEM!) and that pre 90s baseball players did not use them. Next!

That's absolutely incorrect.

 

[darko]

That's absolutely incorrect.

Exactly. Biggest load of croc ever. People were using steroids way before any of us were born.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Haha, so steroids were invented in 1990?

Someone never heard of the Steel Curtain.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Terry Bradshaw was roided out of his mind.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Off course PEDs work. You add strength and it helps your recovery. The debates are about how much it helps a baseball player because as a hitter you still need to get the barrel on the ball. PEDs don't improve your eye sight, reaction time or your hand-eye coordination. Cycling example is a stupid one because it requires different skillset to baseball. PEDs can help the cyclist a lot because it's all strength and endurance. Baseball not so much. It'd be like entering a spelling bee and deciding to cycle to enhance your chances of winning.

When we are discussing the type of players who typically make the HOF ballot, chances are they already had good eyesight, reaction time and hand-eye coordination. No one is saying PEDs got these players into the majors. But it did make regular all-stars into HOF candidates. PEDs absolutely help baseball players.

 

[SladeWilson23]

IMO, PED's should just be made legal. My question is where do we draw the line? Why is it such a crime for players to take HGH to come back from an injury? Also, how do we draw the line between bad PED's and good substances? Just make them legal and be done with it?

Another serious question. Does anybody here believe Rose is the only player who ever bet on baseball?

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Barry Bonds was unequivocally a HoFer before steroids. As was A-Rod. As was Clemens.