2016 Hall Of Fame Results: Griffey Jr, Piazza inducted into the HoF

[MurrayBannerman]

IMO, PED's should just be made legal. My question is where do we draw the line? Why is it such a crime for players to take HGH to come back from an injury? Also, how do we draw the line between bad PED's and good substances? Just make them legal and be done with it?

Another serious question. Does anybody here believe Rose is the only player who ever bet on baseball?

How about we don't make incredibly dangerous substances legal for MLB players? Especially when the US government won't be a fan of that.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Make PEDs legal and make it that you have to receive the injections/treatment through the team doctor and submitting a list of any substances you are on to the MLB and your team. By submitting a list, you are subject to tests and any PEDs or substances found not on your list, or above the doses given by the team doctor result in a 1 year ban.

Not a perfect solution, but it helps regulate it and keeps everything in the open.

 

[BayStreetBully]

IMO, PED's should just be made legal. My question is where do we draw the line? Why is it such a crime for players to take HGH to come back from an injury? Also, how do we draw the line between bad PED's and good substances? Just make them legal and be done with it?

Another serious question. Does anybody here believe Rose is the only player who ever bet on baseball?

The line is drawn for steroids. They've been banned from baseball since 1991.

Everything can be considered on a case-by-case basis. We'd have to look at what the substance was, did the player know, what did the player intend, the period of length he took the substance, the effect if had on him and on baseball, the how, the what, the why, the when, the where, etc. Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Palmeiro, Ramirez among others don't pass this test.

 

[Voight]

Barry Bonds was unequivocally a HoFer before steroids. As was A-Rod. As was Clemens.

Which is why the "voters" shouldnt try to discredit them.

 

[darko]

Make PEDs legal and make it that you have to receive the injections/treatment through the team doctor and submitting a list of any substances you are on to the MLB and your team. By submitting a list, you are subject to tests and any PEDs or substances found not on your list, or above the doses given by the team doctor result in a 1 year ban.

Not a perfect solution, but it helps regulate it and keeps everything in the open.

What about those that don't want to use them? They wouldn't be playing on even field. What about when players start suing when things go wrong after a prolonged use? It just opens a can of worms.

 

[Winger for Hire]

What about those that don't want to use them? They wouldn't be playing on even field. What about when players start suing when things go wrong after a prolonged use? It just opens a can of worms.

There is that, which I agree is a giant hole.

But they do have the option of using them, and it would be in a controlled environment so some of the risk of using might lower, but it would still be a risky health move.

Maybe legalize them and have the plan I laid out earlier and have anyone who submits a list to use only be allowed to have a contract worth XXX amount. Then there's the union, which would never, ever allow that to happen.

It's all a giant cluster-eff and there's no real solution for it.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

You do have the right to live in your fantasy world, as long as you don't hurt others or yourself. In your mind 2 + 2 does not = 4 if you don't believe that it does. There's reality and people over 35 outside HF boards. Everyone knows that PEDS work (THAT'S WHY PEOPLE USE THEM!) and that pre 90s baseball players did not use them. Next!

Corking your bat must work, right?

Oh, it's scientifically proven not to work, but players did it, so.....

Next!

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Some of these posts are so hard to read. "Pre-90s baseball players used PEDS". "PEDs don't work". I checked with a couple colleagues of mine and they concurred that they would be very concerned if any of their patients were so far removed from reality that they believed statements such as this.

I checked with mine and they said all the Cubs fans on this site outside of Murray and Gootie are terrible.

And if you deny players took ped's or cheated before the 90's, you're beyond help.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

When we are discussing the type of players who typically make the HOF ballot, chances are they already had good eyesight, reaction time and hand-eye coordination. No one is saying PEDs got these players into the majors. But it did make regular all-stars into HOF candidates. PEDs absolutely help baseball players.

Where's your proof?

And this is exactly what I meant when I said ped's effects on baseball players were subjective and not quantifiable.

 

[robert terwilliger]

if there was a pill or a drug that made you a hall of fame player more players would take it.

 

[SladeWilson23]

How about we don't make incredibly dangerous substances legal for MLB players? Especially when the US government won't be a fan of that.

Steroids should be banned, yes. But there are plenty of safe substances as well.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

if there was a pill or a drug that made you a hall of fame player more players would take it.

They already have. Larry Bigbie, Marvin Bernard, F.P. Santangelo. First-ballot hofers.

 

[darko]

if there was a pill or a drug that made you a hall of fame player more players would take it.

My dad would've made me take it from young age.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Where's your proof?

And this is exactly what I meant when I said ped's effects on baseball players were subjective and not quantifiable.

Right in my back pocket- here, let me get it out for you.

Seriously, what proof do you want from me that'll be good enough? You want quantifiable? I'm not going to do any data analysis and number-crunching to figure out just how many extra home runs Sammy Sosa hit thanks to PEDs. It's enough that we know the PEDs probably put him into the HOF-consideration range. Would he have hit 600 homers anyway? Most likely not, but I suppose it's possible. But he lost the benefit of the doubt as a PED user. If he's so good that PEDs won't affect him, then he didn't have to use it.

That goes with any player. If PEDs are subjective and not quantifiable, and thus if you want us to treat PED users as if they should get the benefit of the doubt, why didn't they give us the benefit of the doubt and prove they could perform to the same level, but cleanly? Why take it at all if PEDs don't do anything for you?

 

[robert terwilliger]

mostly because players think they do something.

 

[BayStreetBully]

if there was a pill or a drug that made you a hall of fame player more players would take it.

They did. Those guys are not getting in despite 500 HR and 3000 hits. If their plan was to get into the HOF, it backfired. Of course, they should be happy (even if they're not) with their extra millions...

 

[Elvis P]

Babe Ruth drank a Coke once. This proves than all pre-90s players used PEDs.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Babe Ruth drank a Coke once. This proves than all pre-90s players used PEDs.

You're out of your element. Go home.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

I checked with mine and they said all the Cubs fans on this site outside of Murray and Gootie are terrible.

And if you deny players took ped's or cheated before the 90's, you're beyond help.

There are some good ones on the Hawks board that don't post here, but, essentially, yes.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Right in my back pocket- here, let me get it out for you.

Seriously, what proof do you want from me that'll be good enough? You want quantifiable? I'm not going to do any data analysis and number-crunching to figure out just how many extra home runs Sammy Sosa hit thanks to PEDs. It's enough that we know the PEDs probably put him into the HOF-consideration range. Would he have hit 600 homers anyway? Most likely not, but I suppose it's possible. But he lost the benefit of the doubt as a PED user. If he's so good that PEDs won't affect him, then he didn't have to use it.

That goes with any player. If PEDs are subjective and not quantifiable, and thus if you want us to treat PED users as if they should get the benefit of the doubt, why didn't they give us the benefit of the doubt and prove they could perform to the same level, but cleanly? Why take it at all if PEDs don't do anything for you?

Here's the thing. They DO make a difference, but it's not in the way that you can quantify at all in baseball. It's on the training, stamina, endurance, fitness side of things more than anything else. They don't make you a better hitter, pitcher, fielder. They aren't going to turn shallow pop ups into 2nd deck bombs. They help you stay on the field, overcome injuries and rehab quicker. They do add strength in combination with your training regiment but that doesn't necessarily lead to more dingers. The best hitters in the game have quick hands and amazing hand eye co-ordination, not necessarily big guns. Swinging the bat its a full body motion but just your biceps. These sort of effects from PEDs show much more results in a sport like cycling where all it comes down to is pedaling your ass off for as long as you possibly can. You can clearly see the results as you compare things in a vaccuum and simply see if your time is better or overall speed is higher.

So, yes, they make a difference but we have no idea how much or how little. It makes you better athletes, not better baseball players or home run machines.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Here's the thing. They DO make a difference, but it's not in the way that you can quantify at all in baseball. It's on the training, stamina, endurance, fitness side of things more than anything else. They don't make you a better hitter, pitcher, fielder. They aren't going to turn shallow pop ups into 2nd deck bombs. They help you stay on the field, overcome injuries and rehab quicker. They do add strength in combination with your training regiment but that doesn't necessarily lead to more dingers. The best hitters in the game have quick hands and amazing hand eye co-ordination, not necessarily big guns. Swinging the bat its a full body motion but just your biceps. These sort of effects from PEDs show much more results in a sport like cycling where all it comes down to is pedaling your ass off for as long as you possibly can. You can clearly see the results as you compare things in a vaccuum and simply see if your time is better or overall speed is higher.

So, yes, they make a difference but we have no idea how much or how little. It makes you better athletes, not better baseball players or home run machines.

I think you're underrating the effect it has on strength. The best players in the game already have quick hands and amazing hand eye co-ordination. What's the difference in Bonds' monster seasons and his merely outstanding seasons? Unnatural strength.

 

[Elvis P]

Willie Mays had a Coke once which proves that all pre-90s players used PEDs.

 

[Elvis P]

... Of course, they should be happy (even if they're not) with their extra millions...

Mike Lowell said the exact same thing.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I think you're underrating the effect it has on strength. The best players in the game already have quick hands and amazing hand eye co-ordination. What's the difference in Bonds' monster seasons and his merely outstanding seasons? Unnatural strength.

I'm not underrating strength, but maybe you are overrating it. You are also forgetting that they were using juiced balls during that era. You have to look at everything and put it in context. Like I said, big biceps isn't how you hit home runs. Typically you don't "muscle it" out of the park. It's hand eye mixed with technique and quick hands. Yes, strength is part of it but it's not the main factor. Do you think strength is the most important factor in hitting a 300 yard drive in golf, because 99% of professional golfers look like employees at the DMV.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Tim Raines had coke during all his games. It's why he didn't slide feet first.