2016 Hall Of Fame Results: Griffey Jr, Piazza inducted into the HoF

[BayStreetBully]

I'm not underrating strength, but maybe you are overrating it. You are also forgetting that they were using juiced balls during that era. You have to look at everything and put it in context. Like I said, big biceps isn't how you hit home runs. Typically you don't "muscle it" out of the park. It's hand eye mixed with technique and quick hands. Yes, strength is part of it but it's not the main factor. Do you think strength is the most important factor in hitting a 300 yard drive in golf, because 99% of professional golfers look like employees at the DMV.

It's technique + strength. You have a base of X technique and X strength. When you add to your strength and keep the same technique, stands to reason you'd become a better hitter than you would have been otherwise.

Golf is not the same. I have no doubt there are people out there who could swing the ball farther than Tiger Woods. But unless the extend they start have competitions on driving ranges, strength isn't king in golf.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's technique + strength. You have a base of X technique and X strength. When you add to your strength and keep the same technique, stands to reason you'd become a better hitter than you would have been otherwise.

Golf is not the same. I have no doubt there are people out there who could swing the ball farther than Tiger Woods. But unless the extend they start have competitions on driving ranges, strength isn't king in golf.

Strength isn't really king in baseball either. It's an oversimplification that you can just add strength and keep the same technique. Bat speed isn't really predicated on total strength as if you can just keep adding strength to increase bat speed. So no it doesn't stand to reason because it isn't that simple.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

If you have big ass pecs (or **** for that matter), it's a big hindrance on how you get around balls up in the zone and inside.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Willie Mays had a Coke once which proves that all pre-90s players used PEDs.

Did he mix in his amphetamines?

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

No doubt ped's helped with energy and strength. As has been pointed out, strength is just a part of being a great hitter, and getting too strong can actually slow down your swing and hinder your flexibility.

Do they have a positive effect? Of course. Is it in any way measurable enough to say it turned an already great player into a hofer? Not in my eyes.

Also, remember all those ome handed swings and broken bat hr's that were occurring during the height of the home run era? Those aren't happening anymore. The fact the balls were proven to be juiced can't be underestimated.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Strength isn't really king in baseball either. It's an oversimplification that you can just add strength and keep the same technique. Bat speed isn't really predicated on total strength as if you can just keep adding strength to increase bat speed. So no it doesn't stand to reason because it isn't that simple.

Fine, not that I necessarily agree, but I'm not interested in going further away from the point. What's simple enough is steroids were banned and Bonds used it. When countless players, both those who played during the steroid era and those who played before it, are against Bonds and Clemens making the Hall, that's good enough for me. When Halladay, a future HOF himself, says the other day that he's against Bonds and Clemens, that's good enough for me. I'm not about to lose any sleep over keeping them out of the Hall.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Fine, not that I necessarily agree, but I'm not interested in going further away from the point. What's simple enough is steroids were banned and Bonds used it. When countless players, both those who played during the steroid era and those who played before it, are against Bonds and Clemens making the Hall, that's good enough for me. When Halladay, a future HOF himself, says the other day that he's against Bonds and Clemens, that's good enough for me. I'm not about to lose any sleep over keeping them out of the Hall.

I don't see the players as the be-all for determining what is right or moral when they all cheat to varying degrees or have their own set of issues. And players making such claims doesn't really matter much given the voting process. The hilarious part of all this is the writers who vote these people in essentially making it up as they go when they were just as guilty as any other group of people for the steroid era.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I don't see the players as the be-all for determining what is right or moral when they all cheat to varying degrees or have their own set of issues. And players making such claims doesn't really matter much given the voting process. The hilarious part of all this is the writers who vote these people in essentially making it up as they go when they were just as guilty as any other group of people for the steroid era.

I do agree that it's a shame that baseball let this happen when it did. That said, everyone knew it was wrong at the time. It sucks that players I grew up watching like Bonds and Clemens won't/shouldn't make the Hall, but if nothing else, letting them in sets a bad precedent that if you cheat in the future, you will still make the Hall as long as you entertained us in the process and were amazing. As if greatness on steroids should overcome playing fair. While Bonds/Clemens are pre-2005 and distinguishable from those like A-Rod who was actually suspended, they still knew what they were getting into (as did all the others), but now don't want to pay the price for it? Doesn't sound right.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I do agree that it's a shame that baseball let this happen when it did. That said, everyone knew it was wrong at the time. It sucks that players I grew up watching like Bonds and Clemens won't/shouldn't make the Hall, but if nothing else, letting them in sets a bad precedent that if you cheat in the future, you will still make the Hall as long as you entertained us in the process and were amazing. As if greatness on steroids should overcome playing fair. While Bonds/Clemens are pre-2005 and distinguishable from those like A-Rod who was actually suspended, they still knew what they were getting into (as did all the others), but now don't want to pay the price for it? Doesn't sound right.

They've already done that whether they realize it or not.

 

[BayStreetBully]

For what it's worth, I most likely see Bonds and Clemens getting into the Hall at some point, whether that be around their 9th/10th year on the ballot, or afterwards by the Committee.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

You can't speak truth, because guys who don't know will argue to the death. PEDs help a pitcher recover faster from pitching and injury, but they can't help you throw the ball better, because it's all technique. Now watch how many guys argue with me.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

You can't speak truth, because guys who don't know will argue to the death. PEDs help a pitcher recover faster from pitching and injury, but they can't help you throw the ball better, because it's all technique. Now watch how many guys argue with me.

That's insanely simplistic and wrong.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

That's insanely simplistic and wrong.

Your post literally makes no sense, except for the last word which is incorrect. No one who works in baseball can know so little about mechanics. Are you the receptionist?

 

[bluesfan94]

Your post literally makes no sense, except for the last word which is incorrect. No one who works in baseball can know so little about mechanics. Are you the receptionist?

I still wouldn't say it's ALL technique.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Your post literally makes no sense, except for the last word which is incorrect. No one who works in baseball can know so little about mechanics. Are you the secretary?

Are you ****ing kidding me? You're telling me that mechanics are the sole driver for velocity, arm talent, movement, etc...?

That's so stupid and wrong I can't fully comprehend it.

Why the hell are places like Driveline producing massive upticks in velocity by using weighted ball and long toss programs? Magic?

Get you ignorant ******** out of here. And quit talking down to people who clearly know more about the game than you do. It's been happening for a while now and I'm ****ing sick of it.

And what the hell do you even know about mechanics? I bet if I put a grade sheet in front of you, you'd look at it like it was Chinese.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

Clayton Kershaw has 45, maybe 50 grade mechanics. What a bum, guys.

 

[bluesfan94]

I will say that a lot of velocity isn't necessarily arm strength but leg/core strength

 

[MurrayBannerman]

I will say that a lot of velocity isn't necessarily arm strength but leg/core strength

Pitchers today don't use their lower half as much as they used to. Arm talent is huge.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

Arm talent is huge.

Roids obv

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Could Steroids Help Baseball Pitchers Improve? It's Highly ...
www.pitching.com/.../could-steroids-help-baseball-pitchers-improve-its-...
Dec 12, 2004 - The point here is that steroids do not make better baseball hitters. ... in my opinion, they are getting zero performance improvement, not to mention all of ... Steroids will not help a pitcher throw harder because pitching is about ..

In an extensive article in the April 30, 2006 Washington Post titled "Do Steroids Give A Shot in the Arm? Benefits for Pitchers Are Questionable", Amy Shipley includes comments from numerous expert sources, from Dr. Frank Jobe to Dr. Mike Marshall, who uniformly feel that steroids do not help pitchers to any material extent. Nor is there anything to make medical personnel feel that steroids have benefits other than sheer muscularity:

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

Whether the source is injectable steroids or over-the-counter products, there is no dispute that steroids help athletes build strength and muscle. Several sports medicine experts, however, said it's unknown whether such drugs can make pitchers markedly better because of the complexity of the arm and shoulder and the strange science involved in throwing a baseball.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042901195.html

The claim that anabolic steroids, by beefing up players, made them more likely to hit home runs has never fully explained why widespread use of the drugs by pitchers didn’t seem to help their performance.

https://theespnwatch.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/how-much-do-peds-help-performance/

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

If pitching was all technique, Tim Lincecum would have never been any good.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042901195.html

https://theespnwatch.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/how-much-do-peds-help-performance/

Steroids don't help me wipe my ass, but this might.

 

[MurrayBannerman]

If pitching was all technique, Tim Lincecum would have never been any good.

Chris Sale would be dead.

 

[jason1919spezza]

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in this forum, but this whole "everyone cheated, so who cares" type nonsense is starting to get silly and out of control.

Let's get this straight. Griffey Jr., Rodriguez, ...etc. are HoF calibre players. I don't think anyone is denying that because they have performed at HoF level prior to using steroids. But the problem here is that there stats and resume should NEVER be recognized or honored as equal to those that did not use steroids. It's obvious and simple, yet there are people out there that just doesn't get it.

Griffey was obvious, but Piazza making the hall is scary, because this might lead to the whole notion of "steroid is ok"... I hope not.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Piazza was never linked to anything!

People just like to point fingers at everyone since there was and is such a big number of players who do take ped's. It's unfair to simply accuse players without proof.