Salary Cap: 2016-17 Roster Building XXVI | Trade Deadline Watch

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Riptide

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You don't think Duchene is an upgrade over Sheary? If not simply in terms of role/production, then at least in versatility? Is that you, Steigy? :laugh:

Disclaimer: I understand and appreciate Sheary's play and production before his injury, but I don't really believe that was really too sustainable. Sid was playing on another level which not only directly helps Sheary in terms of goals and assists, it also made a lot more room for the guy by drawing defenders away.

I don't think he's enough of an upgrade to start talking about moving him. He was on pace for 60 points while making 650k. Sure he'll get a raise this summer, but he's still going to cost less than 2.5-3.5m depending on the term he gets.

Is Duchene so much better then what we've seen from Sheary this season that it's worth trading Maatta and Sheary for someone who makes twice as much as Sheary will likely make next year?
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Because Kunitz is always the default LW for Crosby for some reason. Also i'm sure Hornqvist stays with Malkin, Hagelin/Kessel stay on the 3rd line. Come on man, this is Sullivan we are talking about.

I'd have agreed before this season, but Sheary's got that spot locked down when healthy. There's no reason for me to believe, when fully healthy, Kunitz wouldn't be on the 4th line... Third at worst.
 

Riptide

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If Maatta + Jarry works, I'm all for it and then some. I just don't think the Avs would be too interested in Jarry as opposed to Sheary, Guentzel or Sprong.

In which case you move Sprong (or Sprong+). You don't move someone who's proven they can produce at the NHL level just because you're hoping that someone might do well in a year or two. There's absolutely no guarantee's that Sprong will be a goal scoring NHL winger. We all think he will... but then most of us thought Pouliot would be a top 4D by now too. Prospects bust all the time, and I think it's not logical to move someone who's proven themselves just because we like Sprong's skillset. We hope that Sprong will be better than Sheary. But Sheary is already producing, and it's not like he's old at 25, nor will he cost a ton to re-sign this summer.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of how people think it's a good idea to trade Sheary.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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I don't think he's enough of an upgrade to start talking about moving him. He was on pace for 60 points while making 650k. Sure he'll get a raise this summer, but he's still going to cost less than 2.5-3.5m depending on the term he gets.

Is Duchene so much better then what we've seen from Sheary this season that it's worth trading Maatta and Sheary for someone who makes twice as much as Sheary will likely make next year?

Yeah, Duchene is that much better than Sheary imo. Sheary's got half a season's worth of very good play. Duchene's got years of play at Sheary's best level.

As for Maatta, it's time to move on from him I think. He's not a terrible player, but let someone else worry about his skating/decision making issues. If we can use him to acquire a damn good player like Duchene, do it. Yesterday.
 

66-30-33

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I'd have agreed before this season, but Sheary's got that spot locked down when healthy. There's no reason for me to believe, when fully healthy, Kunitz wouldn't be on the 4th line... Third at worst.

Yes but you have him traded which opens that spot for Kunitz. He's on it right now when we have better options like a (Hagelin)Guenztel-Crosby-Hornqvist(Kessel) line followed by a (Guenztel)Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel(Hornqvist) line but our coach likes to squeeze the roster for depth even with the injuries instead of stacking.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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In which case you move Sprong (or Sprong+). You don't move someone who's proven they can produce at the NHL level just because you're hoping that someone might do well in a year or two. There's absolutely no guarantee's that Sprong will be a goal scoring NHL winger. We all think he will... but then most of us thought Pouliot would be a top 4D by now too.

There's no guarantee Sheary keeps up the play/production he showed while Sid was playing at another level either.

As for Pouliot, *some* people thought that. *Most* of us are still pissed Shero picked the wrong guy by three or four different players (Forsberg, Trouba, and to a lesser extent Hertl, Teravainen). :laugh:
 

AjaxTelamon

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Jul 8, 2011
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I don't think he's enough of an upgrade to start talking about moving him. He was on pace for 60 points while making 650k. Sure he'll get a raise this summer, but he's still going to cost less than 2.5-3.5m depending on the term he gets.

Is Duchene so much better then what we've seen from Sheary this season that it's worth trading Maatta and Sheary for someone who makes twice as much as Sheary will likely make next year?

JR sure wouldn't do that deal. This org loves Maatta and Sheary. Any deal for Duchene built around Maatta assumes Colorado loves that player too. If they are so neutral to Maatta, then we're not going to be trying to build a package that just throws in Olli Maatta.

Duchene is going to fetch less than people expect, it's always the same. Colorado needs to trade him because he's not going to re-sign, and they're not going to win anything during his term there. We don't need to trade for him, we can move on to the next deal, or not make any deal for a forward. A team like Montreal is more likely to be desperate for a center, but I can't see them having the expendable pieces to get him.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Yes but you have him traded which opens that spot for Kunitz. He's on it right now when we have better options like a (Hagelin)Guenztel-Crosby-Hornqvist(Kessel) line followed by a (Guenztel)Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel(Hornqvist) line but our coach likes to squeeze the roster for depth even with the injuries instead of stacking.

No. It opens a spot for Duchene... :laugh:
 

billybudd

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I think Sheary and Maatta are overkill for Duchene, to be honest. Like, I don't think Colorado could expect that type of return.

Purely speaking of values, with someone like Sprong, a team's taking on a (probably high) element of risk. It's clear he can put a puck in the net, but it's not yet clear the rest of his game has or will ever come around to allow that to matter. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to believe it will (or that nobody's allowed to think he'll end up better than Sheary); just that there's a volatility to him as an asset that this question is logical to ask and that this volatility depresses his value to another team.

But Sheary's "made it" and is worth more in a trade than people seem to think. His work on a first line was sufficiently capable that it didn't interfere with winning a championship. If not for getting injured, he was probably in line for 30-ish even strength goals (Sheary's still tied for 21st in this category despite having missed almost a quarter season). Obviously 87 has a lot to do with that, but a 30 ES goal scorer with a great center is probably at least a 15 ES goal scorer with a normal one. 15 ES goals make him a bonafide top 6 wing. More than that makes him a bonafide 1st liner in today's NHL.

Personally, I just don't think JR does this and I question whether Sakic would even ask without adding something, possibly something significant (2nd round pick, f.e.), which doesn't necessarily make sense at the beginning of a rebuild.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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I think Sheary, god love him, only goes as Sid goes. Then again Sid's here and not going anywhere so that's a moot point, therefore it would be extremely difficult for me to include him in any deal unless Hossa has aged backwards 10 years and no one told me. Could we do better? Sure, but with the cap I think it's pretty key that we hang onto him.
 

66-30-33

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No. It opens a spot for Duchene... :laugh:

I really don't want Duchene a full time winger, he's one of if not the best faceoff men in the NHL and Pens struggle on the dot. Sheary-Crosby-Duchene followed by Hagelin-Duchene-Kessel 3rd line. Sully wont be married to Bones if we get Duchene. I'm sure he will rarely be used as a winger with how Sully operates.
 

Penske

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Jan 13, 2016
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Who said anything about Kunitz?

Duchene - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Guentzel - Bonino/trade - Rust
Kunitz - Cullen - Kuhn/Fehr/Wilson

Healthy, I don't think Kunitz is on Sid's line. Or anything above the third, to be frank--maybe not even above the fourth (which is what I'd do).

That top 6 would be ridiculous. :)
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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I really don't want Duchene a full time winger, he's one of if not the best faceoff men in the NHL and Pens struggle on the dot. Sheary-Crosby-Duchene followed by Hagelin-Duchene-Kessel 3rd line. Sully wont be married to Bones if we get Duchene. I'm sure he will rarely be used as a winger with how Sully operates.

So you have him take draws and then switch to wing. That's not all that uncommon. His strength is that he can play all three forward positions and is good in all three zones.

And to be fair, we should probably be looking to replace Bonino regardless of whether or not we land Duchene.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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So you have him take draws and then switch to wing. That's not all that uncommon. His strength is that he can play all three forward positions and is good in all three zones.

And to be fair, we should probably be looking to replace Bonino regardless of whether or not we land Duchene.

I guess maybe his point is that with Sid on his line you'd have two guys that are good on draws and you could spread them out more effectively. Personally I don't think that's enough reason to break up what the coach feels are his best line combos, but that's just me.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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I wouldn't mind Duchene with Geno either, but I think Duchene with Sid makes the most sense. I really wouldn't be upset with Duchene anywhere in the top three lines really. I'd rather he play with Sid or Geno, but a third line with Duchene and Kessel would be ridiculous as well.

And again, for clarification, I know we're not getting Duchene. I'm just bored out of my mind trying to fix my sleep schedule, and spitballing about the TDL. In reality, I think we probably bring in a depth forward and one or both of Kulikov and Smith for the blueline while finally finding a taker for MAF.
 

mpp9

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Line combinations wont matter much. Play them all on separate lines if you want.

Adding Duchene would take this forward group to possible dynasty level.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Line combinations wont matter much. Play them all on separate lines if you want.

Adding Duchene would take this forward group to possible dynasty level.

Agreed. Absolutely impossible to defend or even gameplan against.

And while our blueline has issues, no doubting that, it wouldn't matter because the opposition would be defending all the time.
 

Vega

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Sheary is legit and dirt cheap. he's a great third wheel on any line imo. I don't want to trade him.
 

Riptide

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There's no guarantee Sheary keeps up the play/production he showed while Sid was playing at another level either.

As for Pouliot, *some* people thought that. *Most* of us are still pissed Shero picked the wrong guy by three or four different players (Forsberg, Trouba, and to a lesser extent Hertl, Teravainen).

Very legitimate concern. I had the same ones last year/this summer - and we were talking about him producing at a fraction of what he's done so far. However given the contracts, how consistent Sheary has been this year and how he's actually looking on the ice (creating plays for Crosby, vs only cashing in on what Crosby creates), it's a risk I'm more than willing to take.

Regarding Pouliot, I think it's far to say most felt that by 4.5 years after his draft that he'd be a top 4D. I know there were a few that never liked him (and you could have been one of those - I can't remember), but most (despite being pissed that FF or someone else wasn't picked) still felt that he could be a top 4D at the NHL level. Who knows, he still might become one... but that's looking more and more like a long shot at this point.

My point is simply that prospects do not always pan out - regardless of how good they may look in juniors or even in the minors. And banking a lot on Sprong to pan out is a risk - much more so then paying Sheary 3.5m for 3+ years. So while I like Sprong and I do not really want to trade him... neither am I going to move a more established young guy just to keep him. If I can move Jarry (or even Jarry+), I would. But I'm moving Sprong every day over Guentzel and Sheary, simply because we hope that Sprong can do what they're currently doing - but that's far from a guarantee.
 
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Very legitimate concern. I had the same ones last year - and we were talking about him producing at a fraction of what he's done so far. However given the contracts, how consistent Sheary has been this year and how he's actually looking on the ice (creating plays for Crosby, vs only cashing in on what Crosby creates), it's a risk I'm more than willing to take.

Yeah, for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ******** on Sheary to **** on him. I am just cautious because he had quite a few lackluster playoff games last season and the bulk of his surge in play and production came when Sid was playing at an ungodly level earlier this season. And I will agree that part of Sid's play can be attributed to Sheary's, but I think it's much more due to Sid. The only issue I think is a legitimate one with regard to Duchene is the cap issue, but we're set to get rid of Fleury ($5.75M) and hopefully Kunitz ($3.85M), Bonino ($1.9M) and Daley ($3.3M) come off the books this summer with only Daley being a guy I'd think about re-signing. We may also be losing Hagelin in the expansion draft, which is another $4M off the books. As long as we can fit Duchene in at the deadline, I think we're good moving forward.

Regarding Pouliot, I think it's far to say most felt that by 4.5 years after his draft that he'd be a top 4D. I know there were a few that never liked him (and you could have been one of those - I can't remember), but most (despite being pissed that FF or someone else wasn't picked) still felt that he could be a top 4D at the NHL level. Who knows, he still might become one... but that's looking more and more like a long shot at this point.

Yeah, I've reviled the Pouliot pick since day one and have been very vocal and very pessimistic about him (perhaps too much). :laugh:

My point is simply that prospects do not always pan out - regardless of how good they may look in juniors or even in the minors. And banking a lot on Sprong to pan out is a risk - much more so then paying Sheary 3.5m for 3+ years. So while I like Sprong and I do not really want to trade him... neither am I going to move a more established young guy just to keep him. If I can move Jarry (or even Jarry+), I would. But I'm moving Sprong every day over Guentzel and Sheary, simply because we hope that Sprong can do what they're currently doing - but that's far from a guarantee.

Yeah, I agree there's a very big question mark regarding Sprong. There's no doubting that, but from what I've seen of the kid's shot and skating ability, and his play since returning from surgery this season, there's no reason to think he's going to turn into anything but a very good offensive player. Especially on this team, where his speed and scoring ability will fit right in.

If we could land Duchene without moving Sheary, I'd be all for it. I just don't think Colorado even thinks about responding unless it's Maatta + Sheary/Guentzel/Sprong, and I'd pick Sheary out of those three. To me, there are quite a few question marks regarding Sheary as well; are we seeing his absolute best and can he sustain that, and is his health going to be an ongoing issue? I saw quite a bit of bad from Sheary during the Cup run, enough to be cautious and certainly enough to trade him for Duchene if given the opportunity. Again, Duchene's got years of play/production mirroring the absolute best we've seen from Sheary thus far.
 

NeedleInTheHay

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Mar 26, 2008
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So the guy that wanted to trade Letang a year ago, now wants to trade Sheary.

Am I allowed to say how thankful I am that you don't work for the Penguins.
 

Riptide

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Yeah, for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ******** on Sheary to **** on him. I am just cautious because he had quite a few lackluster playoff games last season and the bulk of his surge in play and production came when Sid was playing at an ungodly level earlier this season. And I will agree that part of Sid's play can be attributed to Sheary's, but I think it's much more due to Sid.
<snip>
If we could land Duchene without moving Sheary, I'd be all for it. I just don't think Colorado even thinks about responding unless it's Maatta + Sheary/Guentzel/Sprong, and I'd pick Sheary out of those three. To me, there are quite a few question marks regarding Sheary as well; are we seeing his absolute best and can he sustain that, and is his health going to be an ongoing issue? I saw quite a bit of bad from Sheary during the Cup run, enough to be cautious and certainly enough to trade him for Duchene if given the opportunity. Again, Duchene's got years of play/production mirroring the absolute best we've seen from Sheary thus far.

Hey it's all good. This place would be boring as **** if we all agreed 100% of the time with each other.

Given how little history we have with Sheary, caution is fine. But while I agree that questions this summer based on last year were very warranted, I would have thought that his play this year should have erased many of those. Not all, because we're talking about a 42 game sample size, but 35 points, 33 of which are at ES over that span is pretty damn impressive - especially since this is still only his first full NHL season. There's no reason to suspect that at least in the short term (say next 3-4 years, barring injury) that he can't keep this up. Even if he's only a 45/50+ point guy vs a 60+ point guy. Given his low cap hit, that's still a huge plus for us.

Again, my only point is this. There's significantly less question marks when it comes to Sheary then there are about Sprong. Given where this team is and the age and current abilities of the two players in question, I'm going to hang onto the guy that already is a 50+ point winger vs the one we hope can be a 50+ point winger in the next year or two.
 

rintinw

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Yeah, for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ******** on Sheary to **** on him. I am just cautious because he had quite a few lackluster playoff games last season and the bulk of his surge in play and production came when Sid was playing at an ungodly level earlier this season. And I will agree that part of Sid's play can be attributed to Sheary's, but I think it's much more due to Sid. The only issue I think is a legitimate one with regard to Duchene is the cap issue, but we're set to get rid of Fleury ($5.75M) and hopefully Kunitz ($3.85M), Bonino ($1.9M) and Daley ($3.3M) come off the books this summer with only Daley being a guy I'd think about re-signing. We may also be losing Hagelin in the expansion draft, which is another $4M off the books. As long as we can fit Duchene in at the deadline, I think we're good moving forward.

I know it's a small sample size but Sheary's 5on5 production rate is even a little better without Crosby:
w Crosby: 451,52 minutes and 23 points for 3,05 PT60
w/o Crosby: 112,58 minutes and 6 points for 3,19 PT60
While I agree that these numbers might be pure coincidence there is nothing so far to suggest that he will regress.

And if he would regress there is the question how much it would be. For example 40% regression in his scoring rate would still get him into top35 5on5 scorers (based on PT60) and that's a huge regression.
 

SEALBound

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So the guy that wanted to trade Letang a year ago, now wants to trade Sheary.

Am I allowed to say how thankful I am that you don't work for the Penguins.

14-15 months ago I wanted to trade Letang too and tank for two top 5 picks and get Laine and Puljujarvi to boost a retool. So...ya know...there's that.

Not trading Sheary though.
 

ChrisKuuuunitz

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Jan 14, 2015
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Please don't trade Sheary or Rust, these guys are tenacious with skill and imo invaluable.

And can we trade for Lovejoy back somehow? And I'm not even trolling this time..
 
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