Player Discussion: 2016-17 All Goalie Talk

[Rschmitz]

I'm not necessarily concerned with Bishops age, goalies have a long shelf life and he doesn't have a lot of ware. The issue is we have to seal him in bubble wrap every year or else he's going to get injured. Giving him any kind of term is asking to be "Dipietro'd"

 

[Sky04]

I like how you managed to jettison 9.6mil between Filppula and Garrison and took no money back, how much of the future did you mortgage doing that? Better hope Bishop doesn't let us down again.

You also traded Vasilevskiy and took no money back and we're very cheap to all your RFA'S except for Drouin. You are getting rid of these older players, Garrison, Filppula and Boyle yet we keep the older goaltender? Vasilevskiy's age fits better with our young forwards, they'll be hitting their prime when Vasilevskiy will be entering his and Bishop is on the decline, makes no sense on all fronts.

Except Vasi looks years away from being anywhere near a top goalie and our core is in their primes right now, Bishop's age fits much better in with the team. Unless we're planning to jet off Hedman, Stamkos, Palat, Johnson and Kucherov.

 

[Maelmoor]

Can't help but I feel so much better with Bish in net, even when Vasy plays well I don't get that safe feeling ☹

 

[Sky04]

1. Good luck getting all our RFAs signed that cheaply.
2. Then Bishop goes down like he does every year, only now we don't have a guy like Vasilevskiy backing him up.
3. In a couple more years when Kucherov's and Drouin's bridges are up and our cheap ELC players are needing raises, we lose at least one of our best forwards because we're overpaying a declining, injury-hobbled Bishop.

1) They won't be that much more than what he proposed
2) Finding a backup with Vasi's numbers is much easier than finding a starter like Bishop, not to mention if you're running with Vasi as a starter, you might as well be looking for another 1A/B goaltender cause he can't handle the workload.
3) You do know Vasi's contract will be up for an extension at the same time as well right? Putting him in the 4.5-5.5m range at least, or he completes blows it these next 3 years and we're left with no goaltender.

 

[tjs*]

Filppula has one year left at 5m. Garrison is under 5m, both are easily movable. We may retain a little on Garrison but no way should we retain on Filppula for one year left given his production. It's about 1m=10 points. A lot of teams that have the room would gladly take him for one year.

Yes because I did not propose a trade, I removed his 3.7m and didn't add because we may get a roster player that fills that defensive need of a projected 3m, a prospect or picks so it would've been a complete swing into the wind. If Palat wants more than Killorn then no thanks. Killorn should be top money between the two, get rid of the more expensive one. Johnson is another that can be traded of he demands too much. I don't think Johnson at 4.75m is crazy considering the better player Kucherov got 4.7m. I think they all like playing here and would take slightly less, seems to be that way with nearly every resigning lately. If he demands over 5.25m then I'd walk and go with Point in his place.

You cannot match a goalie and a forwards age. They do not work that way. Players primes have been trending towards a younger age, the prime used to be around 30 but it's become around 25-27 and goalies are at about 30. Considering Ben is 30 and the only one that is a "young" player is Drouin and he'd be entering his prime by the time we move on from Bishop. Can't really use skaters and goalies primes to pick who is a better goalie, that's completely irrelevant. Sure they'd all be the same age but it's not a summer camp get together, it's a hockey team meant to win. I imagine Montreal should move on from Price in 3 years, Minnesota from Dubnyk, etc.


1. I used the Kucherov contract to compare Palat and Killorn to, see my reasoning above.

2. And? Price missed more games the last 4 seasons than Bishop has missed the last 4...goalies and players get injured all the time. If worrying about injuries was the case we wouldn't have resigned Bionic Stamkos. Sure you take it into consideration and that is my biggest worry going with him, but that's an if, same as Vasy panning out to be better than him is an if. Either route we take, we gamble. We go with Bishop and.he gets injured, Vasy makes strides and goes deep and we look dumb. We go with Vasy and he falls flat on his face while Bishop wins a cup, we look dumb. This is one of the hardest decisions a GM of the Lightning has ever had to make.

3. You're basing that off of your hypothetical. So I'll raise you one, we waste the bridge of Drouin, Kucherov and other ELCs waiting for Vasy to learn to not give up 3 goals every other game, learn better puck handling and rebound control. And if Dumont demands too much which his one goal shouldn't, we have Erne, Vermin, Gourde, Peca, etc.

1. Kucherov's contract is his first since his ELC - you can't compare that to what Palat and Johnson are going to command coming off their bridges and being a year or two away from UFA status. It's apples and oranges. And we'd be much better off locking Drouin in longterm than playing games trying to bridge him like Kucherov, which would pretty much guarantee we lose one of them when their bridges end (especially if we're resigning Bishop to a big deal.)

2. Resigning Stamkos to that big a deal was a mistake - I said it at the time and despite all the crap I've taken for it it's sure looking like I was right. I said the same thing about Callahan (though I wasn't on this forum at the time) and I was right then. And now you want to throw a lot of money and term at a third player with a bad injury history?

And yes there is some risk with Vasy, but at worst it's a $3.5M x 3 year risk; Bishop is likely a $6-7M by 6+ year risk. One of those is far easier to recover from if things go south than the other. One of those has far more potential longterm benefit if it does work out than the other. And one of those gives us an additional $2.5-3.5M in cap space each year with which to improve the team in front of him.

3. If we resign Bishop then the bridges of Kucherov and Drouin are all we have, because we'd pretty much be guaranteed to lose at least one of them when those bridges end. Go with Vasy and lock Drouin in longterm now and we could conceivably have those guys for the next decade. I know which option I'd choose if I were Yzerman.

 

[TampaJay]

I cheered as one of the greatest goal scorers in the game scored 60 goals in a season in 2012. But it didn’t matter because we didn’t have a goalie who could bring us the cup. I kept my season tickets through the dark years between Khabibulin and Bishop. I’ll keep them when Bishop leaves. And I will cheer for Vasi. But I fear I will watch the best years of Stamkos and Hedman waste away. If you are a long time fan you know that goalies like Bishop are hard to come by, especially at that price. And SY is seriously willing to give him up to retain a forward who could be replaced. Bishop is to the Lightning as Brady is to the Patriots. But the decision was made last summer so on we go.

 

[tjs*]

I cheered as one of the greatest goal scorers in the game scored 60 goals in a season in 2012. But it didn’t matter because we didn’t have a goalie who could bring us the cup. I kept my season tickets through the dark years between Khabibulin and Bishop. I’ll keep them when Bishop leaves. And I will cheer for Vasi. But I fear I will watch the best years of Stamkos and Hedman waste away. If you are a long time fan you know that goalies like Bishop are hard to come by, especially at that price. And SY is seriously willing to give him up to retain a forward who could be replaced. Bishop is to the Lightning as Brady is to the Patriots. But the decision was made last summer so on we go.

I know how you feel but the bottom line is Bishop is not only injury prone, he's pretty much guaranteed to go down every year. It doesn't matter how good he is when he can't be counted on to stay on the ice. If not for his injury history this decision might well have gone the other way but as it is we just can't afford to sink a large chunk of cap space for a long term into a third player with severe injury issues.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Except Vasi looks years away from being anywhere near a top goalie and our core is in their primes right now, Bishop's age fits much better in with the team. Unless we're planning to jet off Hedman, Stamkos, Palat, Johnson and Kucherov.

Years away? His save % is good enough to be a starter, it's not to be a Vezina candidate but it's enough to keep a team in the playoff hunt. Drouin isn't in his prime, Kucherov still hasn't hit his, Stamkos is but can't be relied on to be healthy, the only one who's in it that we can rely on is Hedman and it doesn't look like he's gonna slow down soon. In 3 years if Johnson and Palat fade we have Howden and Raddysh/Erne/Joseph/Cirelli/Stephens who'll be ready for an expanded role.

Bishop's numbers took a hit this year, who's to say he's back to Vezina form next year? His injuries are going to slow him down quicker. Look at Price, he's coming off an injury is 29 and hasn't gotten back to peak form. Lundqvist is the only one who's stayed in their peak through their early 30's but he was always healthy which helped him and now he's showing some signs at 34. Bishop is going to get at least 6 and want 6 years, he's not worth that right now and if he doesn't bounce back we are screwed. We could be screwed for 3 years with Vasilevskiy hoping he becomes a #1 or 6 years with Bishop if he can't get back to Vezina form.

 

[tjs*]

Filppula has one year left at 5m. Garrison is under 5m, both are easily movable. We may retain a little on Garrison but no way should we retain on Filppula for one year left given his production. It's about 1m=10 points. A lot of teams that have the room would gladly take him for one year.

Yes because I did not propose a trade, I removed his 3.7m and didn't add because we may get a roster player that fills that defensive need of a projected 3m, a prospect or picks so it would've been a complete swing into the wind. If Palat wants more than Killorn then no thanks. Killorn should be top money between the two, get rid of the more expensive one. Johnson is another that can be traded of he demands too much. I don't think Johnson at 4.75m is crazy considering the better player Kucherov got 4.7m. I think they all like playing here and would take slightly less, seems to be that way with nearly every resigning lately. If he demands over 5.25m then I'd walk and go with Point in his place.

You cannot match a goalie and a forwards age. They do not work that way. Players primes have been trending towards a younger age, the prime used to be around 30 but it's become around 25-27 and goalies are at about 30. Considering Ben is 30 and the only one that is a "young" player is Drouin and he'd be entering his prime by the time we move on from Bishop. Can't really use skaters and goalies primes to pick who is a better goalie, that's completely irrelevant. Sure they'd all be the same age but it's not a summer camp get together, it's a hockey team meant to win. I imagine Montreal should move on from Price in 3 years, Minnesota from Dubnyk, etc.


1. I used the Kucherov contract to compare Palat and Killorn to, see my reasoning above.

2. And? Price missed more games the last 4 seasons than Bishop has missed the last 4...goalies and players get injured all the time. If worrying about injuries was the case we wouldn't have resigned Bionic Stamkos. Sure you take it into consideration and that is my biggest worry going with him, but that's an if, same as Vasy panning out to be better than him is an if. Either route we take, we gamble. We go with Bishop and.he gets injured, Vasy makes strides and goes deep and we look dumb. We go with Vasy and he falls flat on his face while Bishop wins a cup, we look dumb. This is one of the hardest decisions a GM of the Lightning has ever had to make.

3. You're basing that off of your hypothetical. So I'll raise you one, we waste the bridge of Drouin, Kucherov and other ELCs waiting for Vasy to learn to not give up 3 goals every other game, learn better puck handling and rebound control. And if Dumont demands too much which his one goal shouldn't, we have Erne, Vermin, Gourde, Peca, etc.

Also you mentioned Price, so tell me: how many Cups have the Canadiens won with him? And what's happened to their season when he's gone down? I rest my case.

 

[Stammertime91]

1. Kucherov's contract is his first since his ELC - you can't compare that to what Palat and Johnson are going to command coming off their bridges and being a year or two away from UFA status. It's apples and oranges. And we'd be much better off locking Drouin in longterm than playing games trying to bridge him like Kucherov, which would pretty much guarantee we lose one of them when their bridges end (especially if we're resigning Bishop to a big deal.)

2. Resigning Stamkos to that big a deal was a mistake - I said it at the time and despite all the crap I've taken for it it's sure looking like I was right. I said the same thing about Callahan (though I wasn't on this forum at the time) and I was right then. And now you want to throw a lot of money and term at a third player with a bad injury history?

And yes there is some risk with Vasy, but at worst it's a $3.5M x 3 year risk; Bishop is likely a $6-7M by 6+ year risk. One of those is far easier to recover from if things go south than the other. One of those has far more potential longterm benefit if it does work out than the other. And one of those gives us an additional $2.5-3.5M in cap space each year with which to improve the team in front of him.

3. If we resign Bishop then the bridges of Kucherov and Drouin are all we have, because we'd pretty much be guaranteed to lose at least one of them when those bridges end. Go with Vasy and lock Drouin in longterm now and we could conceivably have those guys for the next decade. I know which option I'd choose if I were Yzerman.

Their value is still their value though. Basic, but true. You pay for what they've done, their age, and what you believe they can do. They got 3x3.33m and have had regressions based on that contract. Just because it's the 2nd contract doesn't mean they'll get absurd amounts. I get what you're saying but I feel like you're overlooking that. Johnson will get around the 5m mark or we should pass. Palat around what Killorn got. I don't think I'm wrong on that prediction. Certainly they could overpay them but given Kucherov's production and his bridge being roughly 1.4m more, they won't get huge contracts. Kucherov will be the one if he continuously gets better to get around the 7m mark. You can compare them because Kucherov is the better player with the bridge amount reflecting his value being greater than theirs. Sorry if that got confusing.

2. You're in the minority there. Not that you're wrong, it's your opinion obviously, but you see how we struggle without his production. Yes his injuries hurt because we could resign Bishop if we didn't have him and potentially another top 6 forward so I get the knock on his resigning but he has had some terrible luck. A broken leg, a blood clot and an injured knee aren't your typical inuries. Maybe the knee but the blood clot and broken leg doesn't happen often. He was on fire when the season started and looked like he did before he broke his leg and for that contract, that was phenomenal. Agree to disagree there, he's important to this team.

Not really, he will have 3.7m (I think) which will turn into a bigger raise after three years, which is around Drouin, Kucherov and whoever else resignings, not to mention if he falls flat it's 3 years wasted while Bishop gives us a chance to compete at a higher level than Vasy does.

3. How? Kucherov has two years left after this year, Drouin presumably starting his bridge at the same time as Vasy. Projected if they continue...

Stamkos $8.5m
Hedman $7.8m
Kucherov $7m
Drouin $7m
Vasy $6m

And that's not taking into consideration the length of Johnson and Palat potentially landing a year after if they do 3-4 year deals and perform well. It's nearly the same.thing if Bishop is here at that time. It all boils down to potential vs certainty. Potential in Vasy and certainty in Bishop. The only problem I have with Bishop is his health but we haven't seen Vasy undergo a workload similar to his 55-60 games a year either. Not to mention taking a team into the playoffs.

This is not an easy decision either way and I feel like either route we go, we have a great chance of kicking ourselves in the ass greatly.

 

[Stammertime91]

Also you mentioned Price, so tell me: how many Cups have the Canadiens won with him? And what's happened to their season when he's gone down? I rest my case.

That's not the point I'm making. 29 teams have #1s they're using and they don't win a cup either. It doesn't mean you give up on your goalie though and that's my point. Just because he gets injured or he's 30 doesn't mean you give up on him. I don't know what case you had to rest? Montreal has had their problems as well as us with coaching, lack of scoring that also contributed to them not winning a cup recently but just because those factors occur doesn't mean you let go of your #1.


If that was the case a lot of goalies would be without a contract.

 

[TampaJay]

I know how you feel but the bottom line is Bishop is not only injury prone, he's pretty much guaranteed to go down every year. It doesn't matter how good he is when he can't be counted on to stay on the ice. If not for his injury history this decision might well have gone the other way but as it is we just can't afford to sink a large chunk of cap space for a long term into a third player with severe injury issues.

This is interesting. We should get rid of Bishop because there is a chance he could get injured in the playoffs – it has happened it he past. Vasi, on the other hand will be imperious to injury, for unspecified reasons. The difference between the two next year will be about $3 million. In cap space that means losing Johnson or Palat. As if either would not result in the return of a player, maybe a Dmen, who would improve the team. Here is what I want to say. Keeping Bishop does not hurt the team. Keeping Bishop means you will not be able to resign someone like Palat or Johnson, maybe Sustr. But if you can’t keep players like that, you can trade them for a very valuable return. You keep Bishop and get a return for Vasi first, and then someone like Palat. So next year you have Bishop in net, then maybe Vasi is traded for Sami Vatanen. And the team is better. All I’m saying is that keeping Bishop and trading one of those forwards that we are so afraid of losing could actually make the team a better playoff contender.

 

[Rschmitz]

Some of you all need to look at this a little more objectively instead of digging your heels in and sensationalizing your black and white stances between the two goalies.

There are positives and negatives of going with either guy, but it appears that Yzerman has made up his mind. The risk of Vasy not developing into an elite goaltender is less than the risk of Bishop being injured and costing the team valuable cap space. At least it appears that way, no way to know for certain right now.

 

[Stammertime91]

Some of you all need to look at this a little more objectively instead of digging your heels in and sensationalizing your black and white stances between the two goalies.

There are positives and negatives of going with either guy, but it appears that Yzerman has made up his mind. The risk of Vasy not developing into an elite goaltender is less than the risk of Bishop being injured and costing the team valuable cap space. At least it appears that way, no way to know for certain right now.

I think the biggest worry is if we go with Vasy and he doesn't pan out in a few years time and we throw away 3 years of Hedman, Stamkos, Kuch, etc being together. At that point, that's a lot of years we've come close and didn't get the prize. We could go with Bishop and he breaks down in game 5 of the year and we're screwed.

I think everybody sees the positives and negatives of both but like you and I, everybody has their reasons why they're dead set on one of them. And to make it worse, in the back of everybody's mind is, what if we make the wrong decision.

 

[Rschmitz]

Trust in the Yzerplan


Let us not forget, most everybody hated his decision to trade Conacher for him in the first place, he'll make the correct move.

The new NHL you have to reload and fire at the same time, the only windows are through the cap space that having team control of a contract provides, and it's virtually gone for everybody but Drouin and Vasi right now.

 

[TampaJay]

I don’t know who would not argue that right now, Bishop is not the better goalie. Vasi may supersede him in time. But what is the cost of keeping Bishop? It means Vasi is gone and we have to lose a forward like Johnson or Palat. It is not as if those players just disappear into the ether. They will garner returns that could actually make the team better. It is possible to keep Bishop and trade Vasi and Palat and make the team significantly better.

 

[HoseEmDown]

It doesn't matter who's in net if we can't score. This team needs some goal scorers bad. We have 1 20 goal scorer right now, Johnson and Drouin are close but no guarantee they get there. Palat, Killorn, Namestnikov and Point seem like they'll be 15 goal scorers who'll fall short of 20. In the system is don't see a guaranteed 20 goal guy, bunch of 15 goal types like what we have now. We are too average offensively and defensively. Pittsburgh has scored 40 more goals than us yet have given up 3 less goals. If we're going to be average defensively we need to get that offense going big time.

 

[dechire]

I'd feel a lot more comfortable moving Bishop if we got a good backup in return. What are the backup/1B options out there ?

 

[RDTBay4]

Just got a text from the Lightning about tickets for the next 2 home games starting at $10.25, use code: GOALIE.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I'd feel a lot more comfortable moving Bishop if we got a good backup in return. What are the backup/1B options out there ?

There's a ton a veteran backups out there just depends on if they want to take a cheap deal to be a backup. With the expansion draft is see a lot of goaltender movement happening. I can see Vegas taking guys like Grubauer, Darling and Raanta and dealing a couple of them to teams to be a starter or 1B. I can see a Neurvirth, Bernier or even Mason coming in on a 1 year 1.5mil deal to get 20-30 starts.

 

[Rschmitz]

I'd feel a lot more comfortable moving Bishop if we got a good backup in return. What are the backup/1B options out there ?

Adds another wrinkle because they would want a signed Bishop, but asking Dallas to retain on Niemi and trade him to Dallas in a sign and trade with Dallas adding a lot

 

[RDTBay4]

Vasilevskiy and Cooper's decision to start him over Bishop was being discussed on all the local radio shows today. Vasi/Cooper are getting thrashed by host and people calling in alike.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Vasilevskiy and Cooper's decision to start him over Bishop was being discussed on all the local radio shows today. Vasi/Cooper are getting thrashed by host and people calling in alike.

It didn't matter who was in net, we weren't winning that game with that offensive showing last night.

 

[RDTBay4]

It didn't matter who was in net, we weren't winning that game with that offensive showing last night.

Vasilevskiy has 1 win in 2017.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

It didn't matter who was in net, we weren't winning that game with that offensive showing last night.

This.

Maybe we would have got a point with Bishop, maybe not, just don't see us winning that game the way we played, no matter who is in net.