2015-2016 General Wild Discussion I

[J22*]

Yup. You're right. There are a lot of good things too. And the players are responsible indeed.

But I think this PP thing had gone past the limit when the coach should start to bench his star players. Damn let 'em sit and watch the first 10 PPs and give 3rd and 4th line a chance to run it. It doesn't have to work, but should at least wake up the regular PP crew. Yeo can't wait forever, he needs to speed up the learning process. Make them responsible.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that by not changing the personnel again, Yeo is making the players responsible for the PP. He's basically telling them that there aren't any trick plays or any certain lineups that are going to magically turn the PP around. And that the players are going to have to actually step up and perform.
To borrow a line From Vashanesh above. If the players need to see guys like Carter, Haula, Schroeder butcher a PP just to get the point across? Then cut them right ****ING now.

You can argue whether or not Yeo made the right changes last year, and you can argue whether or not he made changes often enough/too often. You can not however argue that Yeo/Brunette didn't spend pretty much all season ****ing with the PP in one way or another. Why go through another season of that when it clearly didn't work last year?

 

[gphr513]

Just put the Twins pregame on, and they showed a promo for the Wild. Made me realize how much I miss hockey. Hurry up, training camp!

 

[TZM]

Just put the Twins pregame on, and they showed a promo for the Wild. Made me realize how much I miss hockey. Hurry up, training camp!

Any date given for the start of the training camp? I want hockey

 

[gphr513]

Any date given for the start of the training camp? I want hockey

I think it's always around mid-September, so we're only a few weeks away!

 

[W75]

Where's me avatar?

Changed the laptop after the season and this one just expressed the feelings after the Hawks series. Been a long offseason again.. Got to reboot the old one and search its hard drive soon.

 

[Vashanesh]

Why is it that I haven't read even once that Yeo is probably the best PK coach in the NHL?

Why is it that I haven't read even once that Yeo has become one of the best 5X5 coaches in the NHL?

Why was Yeo a terrible coach when Kuemper was in the net, but all the credit went to Dubnyk when he took over?

This board refuses to give Yeo any credit for anything that works, but immediately wants him fired for anything that doesn't. FFS Yeo hired Brunette because he knew the PP wasn't good enough. Do you remember this board when that happened? A whole lot of " thank god we don't have to watch Yeo's PP anymore" and " It will be good to have a coach who knows how to handle a PP" type responses. One year later, the PP still sucks and somehow we completely skipped right over Brunette and went right back to fire Yeo? Yeah, that's intelligent.

To actually answer your question, no I am not OK with Yeo doing nothing, but I don't feel like he's doing nothing just because he wont scramble the units. I am OK with Yeo saying that the personnel he is using on each unit isn't the problem. I am OK with him trying to fix the current units as opposed to switching out 1 or 2 guys every month to see if that does anything. But, I am most OK with Yeo basically saying that at some point it's going to come down to the players actually stepping up and making plays.

Now you're strawmaning me. I've never said he's a terrible coach, I never mentioned anything about Kuemper or Dubnyk, nor the PK or 5v5.

I'm just sick of anything being "good enough" when we're still not among the elite teams in the league. Every area of weakness needs to be addressed, or we're forever going to be pretenders. If the coach isn't accountable for the end result on the ice? then I don't believe he's a good enough coach. If he isn't willing to take a 20 second look at things and see that what's being done isn't working AND be willing to change it? I don't believe he's a good enough coach.

It was stated before in this thread, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Now that tells us one of two things: Yeo is insane or Yeo actually believes that the same group of people can miraculously do something they've never shown they're capable of doing with no meaningful changes along the way. Frankly, I'm not OK with either of those options.

This isn't an instance of change for the sake of change, it's an instance where anyone with eyes in their head and a brain between their ears can see that the PP is a massive weakness of this team. Being aware of that, and not wanting to drastically shake up what has shown doesn't work at an acceptable rate isn't acceptable to me.

Suter has zero business on the top unit. Not when we have Scandella, Spurgeon and Dumba on the roster. Will that ever change? I have no faith that it will. If the only reason Koivu gets top PP minutes is because Granlund doesn't win faceoffs well enough (something Yeo has been quoted as saying), then the onus is absolutely on Granlund to get better -- I'll agree with you there. But he's not going to get better if he knows Koivu's just being gifted top PP time whether or not he produces results. How did winning all those faceoffs do for our PP%?

To me, the different between a good coach and a great coach is what they get out of their players. Right now, with regard to the PP, Yeo isn't getting enough out of his players. And when he publicly states garbage like this, that he's going to continue to gift top PP time to players that haven't shown they deserve it, he's not encouraging his young players to be their best. He's telling them that no matter what they do, the vets are running the show.

Would you be motivated to be your absolute best, 100% of the time, when you know that your coach doesn't have faith in you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

[Wild11MN]

Still don't get how one good year makes him one of the best PK coaches.

Our PK ranks since he got here:

15th, 18th, 27th, 1st

 

[ThatGuy22]

Now you're strawmaning me. I've never said he's a terrible coach, I never mentioned anything about Kuemper or Dubnyk, nor the PK or 5v5.

I'm just sick of anything being "good enough" when we're still not among the elite teams in the league. Every area of weakness needs to be addressed, or we're forever going to be pretenders. If the coach isn't accountable for the end result on the ice? then I don't believe he's a good enough coach. If he isn't willing to take a 20 second look at things and see that what's being done isn't working AND be willing to change it? I don't believe he's a good enough coach.

It was stated before in this thread, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Now that tells us one of two things: Yeo is insane or Yeo actually believes that the same group of people can miraculously do something they've never shown they're capable of doing with no meaningful changes along the way. Frankly, I'm not OK with either of those options.

This isn't an instance of change for the sake of change, it's an instance where anyone with eyes in their head and a brain between their ears can see that the PP is a massive weakness of this team. Being aware of that, and not wanting to drastically shake up what has shown doesn't work at an acceptable rate isn't acceptable to me.

Suter has zero business on the top unit. Not when we have Scandella, Spurgeon and Dumba on the roster. Will that ever change? I have no faith that it will. If the only reason Koivu gets top PP minutes is because Granlund doesn't win faceoffs well enough (something Yeo has been quoted as saying), then the onus is absolutely on Granlund to get better -- I'll agree with you there. But he's not going to get better if he knows Koivu's just being gifted top PP time whether or not he produces results. How did winning all those faceoffs do for our PP%?

To me, the different between a good coach and a great coach is what they get out of their players. Right now, with regard to the PP, Yeo isn't getting enough out of his players. And when he publicly states garbage like this, that he's going to continue to gift top PP time to players that haven't shown they deserve it, he's not encouraging his young players to be their best. He's telling them that no matter what they do, the vets are running the show.

Would you be motivated to be your absolute best, 100% of the time, when you know that your coach doesn't have faith in you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Koivu isn't being "gifted" pp time. Thus far, he's proven to be the best option. Despite last year being poor(Granlunds were worse), his numbers on the PP have generally been first unit quality.

Granlund's PP numbers are abysmal thus far into his career, despite having a skillset we think should translate well to those 5v4 situations. He is zero threat to score, or even shoot. We complain about Koivu not shooting, but Granlund has a shot rate half of Koivu's on the PP , and one that would be poor at even strength.

Granlund isn't on the first unit, because he hasn't shown he deserves those minutes. The inability to win a faceoff is simply icing on a cake, and an easy out as opposed to saying he hasn't been good enough.

 

[gphr513]

 

[nickschultzfan]

Koivu is on the 1st PP because he wins faceoffs. Which I am completely ok with.

I just have no idea why he is on the halfwall. Put him down low. Parise would be better on the halfwall or in front of the net.

 

[Vashanesh]

Koivu isn't being "gifted" pp time. Thus far, he's proven to be the best option. Despite last year being poor(Granlunds were worse), his numbers on the PP have generally been first unit quality.

Granlund's PP numbers are abysmal thus far into his career, despite having a skillset we think should translate well to those 5v4 situations. He is zero threat to score, or even shoot. We complain about Koivu not shooting, but Granlund has a shot rate half of Koivu's on the PP , and one that would be poor at even strength.

Granlund isn't on the first unit, because he hasn't shown he deserves those minutes. The inability to win a faceoff is simply icing on a cake, and an easy out as opposed to saying he hasn't been good enough.

So a young player that we're effectively counting on to be our #1 center in the very near future -- if not already -- is going to get better with a full minute less PP TOI, fewer offensive zone starts on the PP and secondary linemates?

Am I wrong in assuming we NEED Granlund to be our top center? Am I also wrong in assuming that he's not going to improve at the rate we need him to when he's not being put in a position to succeed? Especially when the alternatives ARE being put in a position to succeed and aren't?

I just flat out don't get it. Koivu may be a better option in a vacuum, but better than bad doesn't mean good, it just means better than bad.

The PP sucks, flat out. Why shouldn't we want to see things change and meaningful chances given to the players we are literally banking on to take over this team in the very near future? Why do the vets have a seemingly endless leash, while the kids (who aren't really kids, anymore) get scraps and leftovers?

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[ThatGuy22]

So a young player that we're effectively counting on to be our #1 center in the very near future -- if not already -- is going to get better with a full minute less PP TOI, fewer offensive zone starts on the PP and secondary linemates?

Am I wrong in assuming we NEED Granlund to be our top center? Am I also wrong in assuming that he's not going to improve at the rate we need him to when he's not being put in a position to succeed? Especially when the alternatives ARE being put in a position to succeed and aren't?

I just flat out don't get it. Koivu may be a better option in a vacuum, but better than bad doesn't mean good, it just means better than bad.

The PP sucks, flat out. Why shouldn't we want to see things change and meaningful chances given to the players we are literally banking on to take over this team in the very near future? Why do the vets have a seemingly endless leash, while the kids (who aren't really kids, anymore) get scraps and leftovers?

It doesn't make sense to me.

I always would like to see PP time a bit more evenly distributed, and more players given a more "meaningful" shot. But at the same time, sometime's you've got to put the onus on the players to make their case that they deserve the shot. You could argue Nino has, and Dumba has. But Granlund simply hasn't done that.

Between 2009-2014, Koivu was the 21st most productive forward in the NHL on the PP(8th most productive playmaker). So let's not pretend he all of a sudden isn't worth PP time, or that those minutes have been gifted to him. He has an established track record of being very good on the PP.

 

[TaLoN]

I think it's hilarious that people say Granlund's PP #'s are abysmal and Koivu's are not, when the difference between them is marginal at best, with Granlund getting all the disadvantages between the two.

Koivu's handful of faceoff wins difference didn't help the PP from being abysmal, so IMO that's a poor excuse.

 

[Vashanesh]

I always would like to see PP time a bit more evenly distributed, and more players given a more "meaningful" shot. But at the same time, sometime's you've got to put the onus on the players to make their case that they deserve the shot. You could argue Nino has, and Dumba has. But Granlund simply hasn't done that.

Between 2009-2014, Koivu was the 21st most productive forward in the NHL on the PP(8th most productive playmaker). So let's not pretend he all of a sudden isn't worth PP time, or that those minutes have been gifted to him. He has an established track record of being very good on the PP.

'14-'15 season:

Mikko: 31st in PP TOI and 84th in PPP
Granlund: 195th in PP TOI and 202nd in PPP.

Let's not pretend that Mikko is a PP wiz anymore. He's obviously not the same scorer he was in years past.

Also consider that this last year is, without any doubt in my mind, the best roster the Wild have ever iced.

I'm not trying to say that Granlund is the end all be all to our PP woes, I'll agree entirely, he hasn't proven that he is. But let's also not also pretend that he's being given a great chance to succeed, either.

Unless Fletcher has a miracle trade for that top-end center we're always clamoring for, Granlund needs to become a prolific scorer. He's not going to get there if he's behind 194 other skaters for PP ice time. And when we know that the current options aren't getting it done, I see absolutely no value in continuing to try to jam a square peg into a round hole.

 

[gphr513]

'And when we know that the current options aren't getting it done, I see absolutely no value in continuing to try to jam a square peg into a round hole.

That's it for me. It's one thing if the vets were humming along and we had a top 10 (or even top 15) PP, then yeah, the young guys are stuck behind, and rightfully so. But when the vets are not getting it done, why not give the young guys, the ones with potential to grow, a crack?

We hear plenty about all the character our vets have, all the former captains. Well, let's put that character to the test, and see how they handle a demotion in the PP unit.

 

[ThatGuy22]

'14-'15 season:

Mikko: 31st in PP TOI and 84th in PPP
Granlund: 195th in PP TOI and 202nd in PPP.

Let's not pretend that Mikko is a PP wiz anymore. He's obviously not the same scorer he was in years past.

Also consider that this last year is, without any doubt in my mind, the best roster the Wild have ever iced.

I'm not trying to say that Granlund is the end all be all to our PP woes, I'll agree entirely, he hasn't proven that he is. But let's also not also pretend that he's being given a great chance to succeed, either.

Unless Fletcher has a miracle trade for that top-end center we're always clamoring for, Granlund needs to become a prolific scorer. He's not going to get there if he's behind 194 other skaters for PP ice time. And when we know that the current options aren't getting it done, I see absolutely no value in continuing to try to jam a square peg into a round hole.

This same argument can be had for Nino(234 PP/TOI, 195 PPP) vs Parise(55 PP/TOI, 88th PPP).

Are we ready to call Parise done as a PP guy because of a bad season, despite a stellar track record of PP production? I mean, he's obviously not the same PP Wiz. anymore.

Or is it possible for a team to have a bad season on the power play( which given the nature of PP TOI, is by default Small Sample Size and more prone to random flucuation) and come back and be fine on it.

I'm not arguing the 2nd unit shouldn't get more chances, somewhat evened up ice time. And there is zero reason for Suter to basically play both units, or Pominville to be on the point with Spurgeon, Dumba, Scandella and now Reilly on the team.

But Koivu was more effective last year in one of his worst years ever, and he has the established track record of being an above average PP center. I'm more then willing to give him a shot to rebound on the top unit. If he gets worse, or better yet Granlund shows glimpses of being more effective. Great. Switch them.

But that hasn't happened.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I think it's hilarious that people say Granlund's PP #'s are abysmal and Koivu's are not, when the difference between them is marginal at best, with Granlund getting all the disadvantages between the two.

Koivu's handful of faceoff wins difference didn't help the PP from being abysmal, so IMO that's a poor excuse.

They were both abysmal last year. The difference is that Koivu has a history of success on the PP.

 

[Vashanesh]

This same argument can be had for Nino(234 PP/TOI, 195 PPP) vs Parise(55 PP/TOI, 88th PPP).

Are we ready to call Parise done as a PP guy because of a bad season, despite a stellar track record of PP production? I mean, he's obviously not the same PP Wiz. anymore.

Or is it possible for a team to have a bad season on the power play( which given the nature of PP TOI, is by default Small Sample Size and more prone to random flucuation) and come back and be fine on it.

I'm not arguing the 2nd unit shouldn't get more chances, somewhat evened up ice time. And there is zero reason for Suter to basically play both units, or Pominville to be on the point with Spurgeon, Dumba, Scandella and now Reilly on the team.

But Koivu was more effective last year in one of his worst years ever, and he has the established track record of being an above average PP center. I'm more then willing to give him a shot to rebound on the top unit. If he gets worse, or better yet Granlund shows glimpses of being more effective. Great. Switch them.

But that hasn't happened.

Parise was one of the only people on the team who could actually finish last year, anyone that watched the team knows he wasn't the problem. I'd love to see what Nino could do with Parise's PP time, but that's not likely to happen.

Bolded is my issue, though. I don't give a damn about the past. We've got a problem now, the past isn't going to fix the present. It's clear that Koivu isn't the player he was in years past. He's lost a step, and he will very likely never get it back.

Now is the perfect time to shake things up. Start in training camp, preseason and the first ~20 games Yeo seems to be fine throwing away on the group that couldn't get it done last year.

 

[NCoRe]

Whattya think are realistic evaluations that is there a possibility to see Keränen gettin his chance wit MIN this season ?

 

[nickschultzfan]

Whattya think are realistic evaluations that is there a possibility to see Keränen gettin his chance wit MIN this season ?

I would like to see the Wild dump Pominville to give them the cap to make necessary signings over the next 4 seasons and also give Fontaine and Keranen top-6 5v5 time instead. And I am not a fan of Fontaine. But I know that is an minority opinion.

That said, it's a positive that Keranen is a RW. If Graovac doesn't make the team (meaning Coyle stays at center) and there is an injury to one of Pominville/Vanek/Fontaine it's going to be Keranen or Schroeder picking up the slack. You could say that Schroeder has the inside track, because he was the call-up last year, but you could also say he had his shot and didn't really move the needle.

I think Keranen could surprise if he play with better players. He's the kind of player that will go unnoticed but show up on the score sheet.

 

[AKL]

Whattya think are realistic evaluations that is there a possibility to see Keränen gettin his chance wit MIN this season ?

IMO, Keranen is an injury call-up at this point. With Cooke and Brodziak gone, he might get more NHL time, but I don't think he's ever going to be more than a fill-in or bottom 6 player.

Wild winger depth is too deep for him to get a real crack at much else with Pominville, Parise, Vanek, Nino, Zucker, Fontaine and maybe Coyle and Schroeder ahead of him.

 

[J22*]

I think it's hilarious that people say Granlund's PP #'s are abysmal and Koivu's are not, when the difference between them is marginal at best, with Granlund getting all the disadvantages between the two.

Koivu's handful of faceoff wins difference didn't help the PP from being abysmal, so IMO that's a poor excuse.

I think it's hilarious that your excuse for Granlund not being able to score 5X5 is because he is on the top line, and your excuse for Granlund not being able to score on the PP is because he isn't on the top line.

Parise was one of the only people on the team who could actually finish last year, anyone that watched the team knows he wasn't the problem. I'd love to see what Nino could do with Parise's PP time, but that's not likely to happen.

Bolded is my issue, though. I don't give a damn about the past. We've got a problem now, the past isn't going to fix the present. It's clear that Koivu isn't the player he was in years past. He's lost a step, and he will very likely never get it back.

Now is the perfect time to shake things up. Start in training camp, preseason and the first ~20 games Yeo seems to be fine throwing away on the group that couldn't get it done last year.

What exactly are you arguing? It's not Yeo's or Koivu's fault that Koivu is better on the PP than Granlund. You say that you want the PP fixed but your solution is to give more minutes to worse players?

You said up the page a few posts that "better than bad doesn't mean good, it just means better than bad". You're right, but guess what? In this context Koivu = better and Granlund = Bad.

 

[DANOZ28]

what i wanna know is are there any ufa #1 centers available next july 1st if granlund doesn't take the next step this year? i think we're stuck with koivu until his contract runs out.

 

[Generic User]

what i wanna know is are there any ufa #1 centers available next july 1st if granlund doesn't take the next step this year? i think we're stuck with koivu until his contract runs out.

Pretty decent list of names. I would imagine most of those guys get a deal worked out before next July.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Parise was one of the only people on the team who could actually finish last year, anyone that watched the team knows he wasn't the problem. I'd love to see what Nino could do with Parise's PP time, but that's not likely to happen.

Bolded is my issue, though. I don't give a damn about the past. We've got a problem now, the past isn't going to fix the present. It's clear that Koivu isn't the player he was in years past. He's lost a step, and he will very likely never get it back.

Now is the perfect time to shake things up. Start in training camp, preseason and the first ~20 games Yeo seems to be fine throwing away on the group that couldn't get it done last year.

The past is the best way to predict the future. Thats why Yeo is going to start with guys that have had success in the past(even if it wasn't last year), and play around from there.

If and when Granlund shows he deserves the first unit minutes, he'll get them. Its not that hard.