Pre-Game Talk: 2014 NHL Entry Draft Part 1

[arsmaster*]

Looking at recent Cup winners, the Bruins and Kings both won Cups on the backs of historical goaltending performances. Both their goalies won Conn Smythe trophies. Outside of that, you have teams like Detroit, Pittsburgh and Chicago who, at their best, were/are offensive powerhouses and played a highly skilled, puck possession game to win.

That's how the Canucks need to be built. Gillis' original vision for this team was right on the money. He just got distracted after the Bruins manhandled and embarrassed them and he completely abandoned his vision.

Perlini and Ritchie are skilled players. I don't see the gripe.

 

[arsmaster*]

Pavel Zacha from the Czech Republic is another excellent prospect who'll likely go outside of the Top 10 and maybe even Top 20. He was as good in his draft - 2 year as Hertl in his draft - 1 year.

I thought he was pretty much a consensus top 10 pick. Looked good at the WJC for a 16 year old.

I liked Hertl and Jaskin both in their draft years, he could be that big "skillled" player we're looking for and since he's a Euro maybe people won't be mad he's 6'3" and over 200 already, at least he won't carry the North American Power Forward label.

The draft a year in advance looks sick, I have to stop thinking about it.

Honestly though, that Colin White kid looks amazing. 2 way pivot. Who can score and play make. Grit.

Also a kid on his line at the U17 is likely a 2nd rounder, Jeremy Bracco...exceptional offensive talent. Opens up his hips the same way Shinkaruk does when entering the zone. I saw him circumnavigate the entire offensive zone in that "half mohawk" stride. Really exciting player.

 

[PhilMick]

All this talk about 2015 and no one's even mentioned Marner yet eh?

 

[thefeebster]

I'd like to think it was my Youtube comment that brought you back

Haha, that was you? I was wondering who that was!

A: do you think his low number of assists is systemic (bad teammates/whatever) or indicative of his passing ability and hockey sense (or something else, maybe he breaks out in hives when someone other than him scores)
B: do you think his playstyle carries a higher than average injury risk

A: Might be a case of many reasons. As arsmaster mentioned, could be chance that his assists havent evened out. But i think its also how the hitmen use him and his playing style. They see him as a triggerman and use him like one on the 2nd PP. He plays very north south and has a shoot first mentality, I think that's a big factor for the low assists. You do bring up an issue I have with him: limited passing vision and limited use of his teammates.

B: Perhaps, it might but I don't think the risk is much more than any other player. He is very solidly built. Since arsmaster told me to watch the hitmen vs the giants game, I did so last night. He nailed 6'4 Geertsen, knocking him to the ice with relative ease. Seems like whomever he hits, whatever their size, he seems to gets the better end of the hit.

Also I found it funny that after that hit Geertsen was so angry and preoccupied with getting slashes in at Virtanen and then staring him down as Virtanen made his way to the bench, Geertsen completely disregarded a big scoring chance behind him right in front of the net. Might be indicative that he can get players off their game or might just be indicative of how bad Geertsen is. Lol.

All this talk about 2015 and no one's even mentioned Marner yet eh?

Love watching him play. Plays such a dynamic game at a high pace.

 

[NuxFan09]

Perlini and Ritchie are skilled players. I don't see the gripe.

By all accounts, they don't have 1st line upside. I'm talking about a player like Nylander, who might be a riskier pick for various reasons but has that elite skill and 1st line upside.

 

[arsmaster*]

By all accounts, they don't have 1st line upside. I'm talking about a player like Nylander, who might be a riskier pick for various reasons but has that elite skill and 1st line upside.

1st line upside is a crock. Kesler is easily a #2 C on any team, and as RW has 1st line upside. He was thought to have 3rd line upside in his draft. Both these big kids have higher projections than Kesler did.

You want flashy skill.

Perlini is a scorer. Jeff Carter like.

 

[NuxFan09]

Can you even draw that distinction?

The Red Wings were an excellent defensive team and the Kings were downright dominant (despite their mediocre W-L-OTL record) in puck possession metrics the year they won. I believe the Bruins led the league in score close fenwick (about as "puck possession" as it gets) the year they won.

The Red Wings were excellent defensively. What's your point? They were also excellent offensively.

You can talk about the underlying numbers for the Kings and Bruins all you want but let's just keep this simple. They were at most above average offensive teams, the Kings being closer to average. It's their goalies who won them their Cups.

I think people are missing my point anyway. I'm not saying that the Bruins and Kings didn't also have good offenses. I'm saying that the Red Wings, Penguins and Blackhawks won Cups with elite talent up front and the Bruins and Kings were exceptions who won on the backs of outstanding goalies who both won Conn Smythes for their efforts. I think it bodes well for longer term success when you have a team built in the mold of the Red Wings, Penguins or Blackhawks, rather than the Kings or Bruins.

 

[NuxFan09]

1st line upside is a crock. Kesler is easily a #2 C on any team, and as RW has 1st line upside. He was thought to have 3rd line upside in his draft. Both these big kids have higher projections than Kesler did.

You want flashy skill.

Perlini is a scorer. Jeff Carter like.

It's funny that you're countering my point by saying Kesler is a #2 centre when my point is that the team needs future 1st liners.

Nice rebuttal.

I guess some fans still aren't learning from this team's anemic offensive performances in the playoffs year after year. Like, hello??

 

[arsmaster*]

The Red Wings were excellent defensively. What's your point? They were also excellent offensively.

You can talk about the underlying numbers for the Kings and Bruins all you want but let's just keep this simple. They were at most above average offensive teams, the Kings being closer to average. It's their goalies who won them their Cups.

I think people are missing my point anyway. I'm not saying that the Bruins and Kings didn't also have good offenses. I'm saying that the Red Wings, Penguins and Blackhawks won Cups with elite talent up front and the Bruins and Kings were exceptions who won on the backs of outstanding goalies who both won Conn Smythes for their efforts. I think it bodes well for longer term success when you have a team built in the mold of the Red Wings, Penguins or Blackhawks, rather than the Kings or Bruins.

I think you're wrong.

The Red Wings were a puck possession team that played with Tomas Holmstrom, Johan Franzen, and Tomas Kopecky in their top 9. All large PWF type guys.

I also think you're crediting those teams goaltending when it was pretty much what was happening outside the crease that made those guys jobs easier.

The Conn Smythe has lost its luster for me....when they gave it to Toews in 2010 there was no way he deserved it. Giving it to the goalie is just a cop out IMO. Thomas deserved it for the finals maybe, but we made him look good. Doughty and Kopitar were better for me during their runs.

Also, players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Toews, Kreijci, are all top level talents who are also very good two way players. Sure Chicago has Kane, but Detroit's ONE WAY offensive guy was Jiri Hudler.

I didn't see any PURE skill, dangler only's on that team. Yes Zetts and Datsyuk are insane talents, but they're as highly regarded as they are because they play 200'.

Back to the draft.....no reason not to take an elite finisher because he's not a fancy dangler.

1st line upside is a crock....think of James Neal.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

It's funny that you're countering my point by saying Kesler is a #2 centre when my point is that the team needs future 1st liners.

Nice rebuttal.

I guess some fans still aren't learning from this team's anemic offensive performances in the playoffs year after year. Like, hello??

"Future first liners" doesn't mean anything though other than who is playing the most minutes. You always want to take the best player, some skilled guys develop better than others and that is tough to determine. Nylander keeps falling because, apparently, he is seen as not using team-mates well (as per Bob MacKenzie).

 

[arsmaster*]

It's funny that you're countering my point by saying Kesler is a #2 centre when my point is that the team needs future 1st liners.

Nice rebuttal.

I guess some fans still aren't learning from this team's anemic offensive performances in the playoffs year after year. Like, hello??

You didn't see where I wrote he'd be on almost any teams 1st line at RW.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I was impressed by Virtanen last night, I thought he and Draisaitl played well but Virtanen had the better game. I've only seen both guys play a few times, from what I've seen Draisaitl has better vision and playmaking ability and is more effective at using his teammates both guys play with an edge and have a physical aspect to their games and Virtanen seems to have the better shot with the quicker release. I don't see a big gap between these two players and would be happy if the Canucks drafted either guy.

I see a gap in that I don't view Virtanen to be as good. I may be wrong on this, but Draisaitl seems to be close to the top4 of this draft in ability. Do people see this as a block of 5?

Dal Colle, Bennett, Reinhart and Ekblad all seem to be locks for the top4. Draisaitl is more of this group. Do people see him as having the upside of the others?

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I see a gap in that I don't view Virtanen to be as good. I may be wrong on this, but Draisaitl seems to be close to the top4 of this draft in ability. Do people see this as a block of 5?

Dal Colle, Bennett, Reinhart and Ekblad all seem to be locks for the top4. Draisaitl is more of this group. Do people see him as having the upside of the others?

Scouts and pros are all over the place this year.

How about Craig button...

Has Virtanen @ 47... Ehlers at 8... McCann @ 6 ... Draisaitl @ 11...
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

 

[tc 23]

All this talk about 2015 and no one's even mentioned Marner yet eh?

Marner's definitely a guy to watch heading into 2015. That draft is looking so stacked, it's not even funny.

 

[Tiranis]

I see a gap in that I don't view Virtanen to be as good. I may be wrong on this, but Draisaitl seems to be close to the top4 of this draft in ability. Do people see this as a block of 5?

Dal Colle, Bennett, Reinhart and Ekblad all seem to be locks for the top4. Draisaitl is more of this group. Do people see him as having the upside of the others?

I think he's with the big 5 but he's the weakest of them. I'm going to watch more WHL down the stretch so it wouldn't surprise me if he falls further on my list given some of the recent reports on his play.

Still not sold on Virtanen in the top 10 but same as Draisaitl, I'll get to see more of him down the stretch.

 

[dave babych returns]

The Red Wings were excellent defensively. What's your point? They were also excellent offensively.

My point is you can't lump those teams into "good offensively" and "carried by their goaltender" categories very neatly.

The Red Wings, Bruins and Kings were all excellent defensive teams who were strong in terms of puck possession as well.

(And I would say that as good as Tim Thomas and Jon Quick are, they would not have posted historic numbers if it weren't for the teams playing in front of them.)

You can talk about the underlying numbers for the Kings and Bruins all you want but let's just keep this simple. They were at most above average offensive teams, the Kings being closer to average. It's their goalies who won them their Cups.

I think people are missing my point anyway. I'm not saying that the Bruins and Kings didn't also have good offenses. I'm saying that the Red Wings, Penguins and Blackhawks won Cups with elite talent up front and the Bruins and Kings were exceptions who won on the backs of outstanding goalies who both won Conn Smythes for their efforts. I think it bodes well for longer term success when you have a team built in the mold of the Red Wings, Penguins or Blackhawks, rather than the Kings or Bruins.

There isn't a poor defensive team among that group though.

Last year Chicago were near the top in terms of GAA, SAA, PK%; to a lesser extent they were up there in 2010 as well. Detroit was certainly stellar defensively.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Scouts and pros are all over the place this year.

How about Craig button...

Has Virtanen @ 47... Ehlers at 8... McCann @ 6 ... Draisaitl @ 11...
http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

I know. Kind of maddening to read reports and come to a conclusion this year.

I saw two games of LD a while back, and caught one recently. My interest in general wasn't there because I figured the Canucks would never pick that high, but he impressed me early... not so much now. Draisaitl looks slow and not as 2way conscious as you would like a C to be.

Still, he's creative and good along the wall. I don't think he should slip past the top5.

I think he's with the big 5 but he's the weakest of them. I'm going to watch more WHL down the stretch so it wouldn't surprise me if he falls further on my list given some of the recent reports on his play.

Still not sold on Virtanen in the top 10 but same as Draisaitl, I'll get to see more of him down the stretch.

I see a clear gap between Virtanen and Draisaitl. There's no way I would take JV over LD in the 1st. Even though LD has looked sluggish for a bit now.

I agree that he is the weakest of the big5 right now, but his upside is right there with any of them IMO. His skating will improve. He also needs to be more determined on the backcheck. The thing I like about him most is that I can see him remaining in the centre position as he progresses. He has the vision to keep it.

 

[Hansen]

Its always a treat getting to watch Marner play when Im watching the Knights. Such an amazing offensive talent for a young kid.

 

[Tiranis]

I thought he was pretty much a consensus top 10 pick. Looked good at the WJC for a 16 year old.

Maybe. Just my opinion that he's not going to be Top 10 due to the number of NA high-end prospects. I feel like it would take something special for a Czech player to go in the Top 10 in this upcoming draft. Don't think they have the same reputation as Swedes, Russians or even Finns.

 

[Evidence]

I see a gap in that I don't view Virtanen to be as good. I may be wrong on this, but Draisaitl seems to be close to the top4 of this draft in ability. Do people see this as a block of 5?

Dal Colle, Bennett, Reinhart and Ekblad all seem to be locks for the top4. Draisaitl is more of this group. Do people see him as having the upside of the others?

I haven't seen enough of either guy to definitively put one guy ahead of the other but Draisaitl is ahead of him in all of the rankings that I've read. I think their is a gap between the two but it's not as big as it was earlier in the year.

 

[Verviticus]

It's funny that you're countering my point by saying Kesler is a #2 centre when my point is that the team needs future 1st liners.

Nice rebuttal.

I guess some fans still aren't learning from this team's anemic offensive performances in the playoffs year after year. Like, hello??

"hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr its only a first line player if he has a hundred points" - your argument summed up

 

[Bleach Clean]

I haven't seen enough of either guy to definitively put one guy ahead of the other but Draisaitl is ahead of him in all of the rankings that I've read. I think their is a gap between the two but it's not as big as it was earlier in the year.

That's fair. I do see a large gap, but that's just opinion really. To me, Draisaitl is far more versatile. I see enough traits to comfortably include him with the big4 at the top. It may not shake out that way. He could drop, but then some other team is going to get excellent value if/when he drops.

On another note, saw Larkin play. He's limited in what he can do, but he plays the game with a clear direction. Efficient player. I think he can edge out Bleackley at the draft, and I like Bleackley. Fabbri too.

 

[The Iron Goalie]

The other day I took some time, and combined the 3 most recent draft rankings from the ISS, Craig, and Bob. here's how the first round looked

1.Aaron Ekblad
2.Sam Reinhart
3.Sam Bennett
4.Michael Dal Colle

These players separated themselves from the rest of the pack. None of them received a rank greater then 4, and no other players in the draft received a top 4 ranking

5.Brandon Perlini
6.Leon Draisaitl
7.Hayden Fleury
8.William Nylander
9.Jared McCann
10. Kasperi Kapanen

11.Nick Ritchie
12.Nikolaj Ehlers
13.Ivan Barbashev
14.David Pastrnak
15.Sonny Milano
16.Adrian Kempe
17.Alex Tuch
18.Roland Mckeown
19.Dylan Larkin
20.Anthoney Deangelo

21.Anton Karlsson
22.Connor Bleackley
23.Jake Virtanen
24.Nikolai Goldobin
25.Josh Ho-Sang
26.Robby Fabbri
27.Brycen Martin
28.Ryan Macinnis
29.Oskar Lindblom
30.Jake Glover

Again this is not my list, but a combined list of Craig, Bob, and the ISS.

 

[PhilMick]

Good news, I got tickets to Hitmen vs Rebels on Monday. I'll come back with amazingly detailed scouting reports on Virtanen and Fleury, and will try to get a good take on Ben Thomas as well.

edit: That, or possibly keep taking my shirt off and trying to get on the jumbotron.

 

[arsmaster*]

That's fair. I do see a large gap, but that's just opinion really. To me, Draisaitl is far more versatile. I see enough traits to comfortably include him with the big4 at the top. It may not shake out that way. He could drop, but then some other team is going to get excellent value if/when he drops.

On another note, saw Larkin play. He's limited in what he can do, but he plays the game with a clear direction. Efficient player. I think he can edge out Bleackley at the draft, and I like Bleackley. Fabbri too.

There is a gap in overall skill between Jake and Leon for sure. However I will not be surprised if Leon drops and Jake rises.

----

How'd you watch Larkin? Did you pay any attention to Milano and Tuch?

I think Bleackley is getting painted with the "200 foot" brush, I think his individual skills are quite high. Good shooter, nice stick handler.

Trying to understand what separates him (late 20's) and Jared McCann (consensus 8-12 type). Both seem very similar to me.

You know what I think about Fabbri.