GDT: 2013 Caps Trade Deadline Thread II (Forsberg for Erat & Latta)

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Ajax1995

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Dec 9, 2002
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You say if he makes it to the NHL. Bobby Mac said he is ready. I heard he was stuck on the depth chart in Nash.

Why in the world would George insist on Kevin Kaminski or not make the trade, in a deal of this magnitude, in a win now move.

George sees upside as a 3C and so fans will too.

What do you project Filips average points to be after his first 5 NHL years. Add it to the record.

Filip is your bone of contention right, not Latta.

My issue is not getting enough back for Forsberg, not necessarily making a trade of a blue chip prospect for help now.

THN had Latta as Nashville's 5th ranked prospect, had his future as an energy line player, and said he is still a few years away so it isn't like there is a consensus on the guy.

But I'm sure Latta might be ready for a shot at a 4th line energy line role. Whether he actually succeeds or not I'm sure we will see. Getting a cup of coffee in the league does not equal making it IMO.

And I'm not going to project average point totals for a guy who hasn't played a game in North America outside of a WJC. 5 years ago the 11th pick was Kyle Beach, a complete bust. 5 years before that it was Jeff Carter. 5 years before that it was Jeff Hereema, another bust. 5 years before that Brendan Witt. Forsberg could be a bust and he could have a long, solid NHL career. I guess we will all find out...

THN had Forsberg ranked as their 21st best prospect. In 2008 their 21st ranked prospect was TJ Oshie and in 2003 it was Jamie Lundmark.
 
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Ajax1995

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Dec 9, 2002
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Why Kaminski and not Steve Downie or Steve Ott?

McKenzie compared him favorably to Downie. He further said he is ready to play NOW. Do you know something Bobby Mac does not?

If so please share it.

Why Downie or Ott and not Kaminski?

I know what THN Future Watch said about Latta. THN doesn't agree with McKenzie. Didn't McKenzie have Iginla going to Boston. It isn't like he is infallible.
 

BrooklynCapsFan

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Oct 23, 2002
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Why Downie or Ott and not Kaminski?

I know what THN Future Watch said about Latta. THN doesn't agree with McKenzie. Didn't McKenzie have Iginla going to Boston. It isn't like he is infallible.

I believe that was Dreger by way of Aaron Ward that called Iggy to Boston, but I'm not a twitter user.

McKenzie is pretty rock solid transaction wise. Grading prospects though, that's a crapshoot and no one is beyond questioning. I don't even know if McKenzie is known as a prospect analyst.

The Forsberg bashing/Latta pumping is reactionary steam to prop up a bizzare worldview that the Caps can't make a mistake with asset management/prospect evaluation.

I'm no prospect guy and I've not read a thing about Latta in Hershey, but if a young Kaminski joined the Bears last week, his statline wouldn't be 0-0-5 PIM in 3 games. It'd be closer to 0-0-35.
 

Liberati0n*

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Yeah, I don't think McKenzie is a prospect analyst at all. I think he bases his draft rankings, for example, on his discussions with NHL scouts. That's also what the THN thing is based on, but that's a more comprehensive, process-based thing. McKenzie may have talked to one or two scouts who gave good reviews of Latta or something.
 

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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I believe that was Dreger by way of Aaron Ward that called Iggy to Boston, but I'm not a twitter user.

McKenzie is pretty rock solid transaction wise. Grading prospects though, that's a crapshoot and no one is beyond questioning. I don't even know if McKenzie is known as a prospect analyst.

The Forsberg bashing/Latta pumping is reactionary steam to prop up a bizzare worldview that the Caps can't make a mistake with asset management/prospect evaluation.

I'm no prospect guy and I've not read a thing about Latta in Hershey, but if a young Kaminski joined the Bears last week, his statline wouldn't be 0-0-5 PIM in 3 games. It'd be closer to 0-0-35.

As it happens, a 21 year-old Kevin Kaminski had a stat line of 1-0-1, 44 PIMS in 7 AHL games.
 

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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Yeah, I don't think McKenzie is a prospect analyst at all. I think he bases his draft rankings, for example, on his discussions with NHL scouts. That's also what the THN thing is based on, but that's a more comprehensive, process-based thing. McKenzie may have talked to one or two scouts who gave good reviews of Latta or something.
This is correct. His rankings are a compilation of those given to him by NHL scouts.

Whenever McKenzie has piped up about player evaluations on a TSN broadcast, I've always found them lacking.
 

Capitlols

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The way I see Latta: worst case scenario he would be a much better 4C than Beagle, best case would be Dale Hunter-lite.
 

SimplySensational

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Well Trotz is saying FF will play with the Preds probably, mainly due to injuries... Will probably be in Nashville by this weekend.
 

BobRouse

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I guess we'll be able to see for ourselves if this "theory" that Forsberg sucks all of a sudden is valid.

Who ever said that Forsberg "sucks"? I think most of us who don't hate the trade feel he definitely will be an NHL player and to me that doesn't = "sucks"

Besides it would prove nothing if he came in and underwhelmed. He's just a kid playing for a non playoff team. Likewise if he put up some points that wouldn't mean all that much either since you could attribute it to adrenaline.

I hope he does well.
 

RandyHolt

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I guess we'll be able to see for ourselves if this "theory" that Forsberg sucks all of a sudden is valid.

Who said he sucks?

:laugh:

I guess we'll be able to see for ourselves if this "theory" that Forsberg is truly the #3 BPA of his class, and validates it by outperforming all the players drafted before him.

Please add to record what you think his average points per year will be for his first 5 years. His game is all about scoring, right?

I will predict his first 5 games will be rather Kaminski AHL like. 0-0-2.
 

txpd

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forsberg sucks? where did you get that? "He's going to play" is what McPhee said this weeka about Forsberg. Is FF going to be better than Erat? I think there is some question about that. Is he going to be better than Brouwer?

Latta: McKenzie was told by someone with Nashville that Latta was ready. ChickenParm said "he is close. real close" on the trade show. McPhee sees him playing next season.

a good 2nd line 20 goal scorer winger and a solid Matt Hendricks like player is certainly worth a low end 1st line player.

If Forsberg turns out to be as good as Backstrom, then McPhee made a mistake(assuming no long playoff run). Anyone projecting Forsberg to be a good as Backstrom?
 

Ajax1995

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The way I see Latta: worst case scenario he would be a much better 4C than Beagle, best case would be Dale Hunter-lite.

What are you basing this on? Seriously. Beagle's proven himself a decent 4th line centerman in this league. Zippy chance Latta isn't an NHL player in your opinion? Why?

And I'm not going to even entertain comparisons to a guy who played over 1400 NHL games and accrued over 1000 points...
 

Ajax1995

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a good 2nd line 20 goal scorer winger and a solid Matt Hendricks like player is certainly worth a low end 1st line player.

I disagree. There are not nearly enough legit 1st line players in this league, low end or not.
 

Chokingdogs

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i sure hope latta isnt another kaminski....dont get me wrong, i loved killer, especially when shoney would get all amorous and trot out killer with hunter/berube and chico on D...but i digress, killer couldnt play a lick at the nhl level beyond hitting people and dropping the mitts.
 

txpd

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I disagree. There are not nearly enough legit 1st line players in this league, low end or not.

we will see how it works out. erat has one game. lets see if he scores 25 next season or 12. lets see if forsberg ever scores 30.

it takes time.
 

MW6

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I disagree. There are not nearly enough legit 1st line players in this league, low end or not.

What defines a first line player, really? Is it points? Skill? Reputation?

If I were to guess by points, I think my true first liners would be close to a ppg-avg, at least 0,8pts/g. 2nd line 0,6 pts/g (with PP-time). 3rd liners 0,4 pts/g and 4th liners 0,2 pts/g.
 

brs03

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I disagree. There are not nearly enough legit 1st line players in this league, low end or not.

By any reasonable metric Erat is a 1st line player, though (granted, a mid/low-end one) so isn't that where we are?

Erat is a very good player. My biggest gripe with the deal was and will remain to be that a trade chip of Forsberg's caliber should have been spent on the D.
 

txpd

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forsberg would have gone to hershey. nashville is going to miss the playoffs. different cirmstances entirely.

was there a defense available that forsberg would have bought?

that said...fire mcphee....oops....branding getting in my head again. mcphee has his defense. he is not looking to add a top 4 d. he just isnt
 

The Consiglieri

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Feb 19, 2007
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I honestly don't think the Caps think this kid is as great of a prospect as us fans want to believe. The artcile someone posted above stated that there are questions from scouts about his foot speed, which explains why he went from a supposed top 5 pick in the draft to a player who fell out of the top 10.

I just don't think the Caps think Forsberg is anything more than a good 2nd line prospect in the NHL. Only time will tell. But considering GMGM has no history of trading away the teams top prospects I wonder about just how great Forsberg is going to be.

You may be right, but trading away top draft picks for pieces in a last ditch effort is what teams at the apex, or beginning to enter the "no chance at a title with this group without a move" phase always does. They always end up moving picks or prospects for that final piece. Very few of them are smart enough to realize that trading away prospects before the inevitable fall, is the surest way to make the fall far harder, and the stay down there far longer (San Antonio is one of the few teams in sports I can think of that has consistently eschewed this quick fix stupidity, and not surprisingly, has been hyper competitive through the past 15 years).

I am sure GMGM didn't make a deal like this before because the team was largely on the rise, or potentially still had more growth potential from '08-'12. Now, not so much. IF this is a roller coaster, we're either at the top, or can see the lip heading down, and are trying to avoid it with a stupid deal.

No amount of sleep is making me like this deal anymore than I already did. Horrible deal, and pretty depressing to see that we could have made the playoff run entirely without it, and kept Forsberg all the while. Just brutal. If nothing else, Im taking heart in the knowledge that they'll compete for the next half-decade or so, and when they collapse, they will fall real hard, and thus will be able to rebuild properly, rather than by half-measures. Also good to see that we're lining up as a playoff team, rather than a 9th or 10th, just outside the playoffs, finish. From what I heard, this draft, you needed to pick top 8, or just make the playoffs and give up on the draft (as the prospects outside of the cream were roster filler types at best, not impressive at all).
 

Mothra

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To me a lot of this comes down to how good will Forsberg be, and when will he hit that level. Certainly seems like an excellent young player but there are more of those who didnt make it, or didnt make any significant impact, than those who were all-stars. Seems to me a lot of people are penciling him in for all-star games and using that to judge this trade.

Trade made the Caps better this season for sure. It's possible Erat will be a better NHL player for several more seasons, which they will pay for with the higher salary. Forsberg could have a good NHL career and never be quite the player Erat is.

Im not a huge fan of the trade but how would this be viewed if the Caps were fighting more for a top seed than a playoff spot? In reality its not really much different. Maybe I think this team is a little better than most do (which is odd because it usually the other way around) but they should be in the playoffs, and from there who knows.

Just makes me think of the biggest robbery trade of all time, Oates for Ouellet, 1st, 2nd, 3rd.....even with Oates doing squadoosh in Philly, trade is pretty mush a wash
 

The Consiglieri

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Feb 19, 2007
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I think people are resorting to taking the emotion out of the trade. Everyone was stir-crazy for two hours yesterday with anticipation. People heard we traded Forsberg and flipped. I know I did.

If you follow the Redskins, same exact thing happened with the RGIII trade. You hear 3 1st round picks and immeadiately flip out/call for ShanAllen's head/curse Snyder/scream/yell/piss and moan. When the dust settled, people said, "we have an opportunity to have something here we haven't had in 20 years; a franchise QB" and came around to the trade. I'd do the RGIII trade again without hesitation.

Not saying Erat = RGIII, at all. But, the fact remains that the Caps have been building something for almost 10 years now since they draft Backstrom and Ovechkin. McPhee has Wilson and Kuz in the pipeline and felt Forsberg was: (a) expendable and (b) not as good as HF posters want to believe.

A lot of people are angry saying if he would have just re-signed Semin or re-signed another scorer we could have shored up our top 2 lines without giving up our 2nd best prospect. Other people are angry because we didn't shore up the defense. Other people are angry because now our cap space is limited and if George can't resign Ribeiro then this trade is a complete failure. All valid points.

If Erat gives us 2+ years at 70-80 points and if Latta can be an effective 3C then as long as FF isn't a bonafide star for the next 10+ years then this trade can be win-win. Bottom line, the Caps are better today than they were yesterday while their division rivals aren't any better, and may or may not be worse off in 5 years because of the trade.


I'm gonna nit-pick, and it's not going to be on what you necessarily think. I know people freak out over trades. But those that are obsessed enough to post on a prospects board are a different breed of fans. Same way I reacted to Shanny's decision making at QB. In '10 when he got McNabb I bashed it, arguing McNabb was in severe decline, and you could see it if you paid attention to his career arc, I believed the decline was masked his final year in philly by the addition of weapons philly lacked throughout his career (2 legit WR's instead of 0, in Jackson and Maclin, great TE, great RB in Shady), once he moved to team with even less weapons than the eagles had early in his career, his scattershot arm, and physical decline would be evident again. They were. Shanny missed on that badly, and dealing a 2nd and a 4th rounder from a team that had no picks for a decade, was a crazy stupid idea when you were a rebuilding team, even if you needed a bridge QB (should have gotten a hasselsuck type instead). However where he was quite prescient was at drafting a QB. Here's what he did:

'10-Only liked Bradford, price was way too high, so got his future QB's franchise LT instead in Silverback.

'11-Liked Locker before the season, but not after his accuracy issues at U-Dub as a senior, liked Newton but felt moving up was too expensive. Did not like Lame Gabbert, or the fraud that was Ponder, but did really like the prospects for the '12 QB class (at that time, Luck, Jones, Barkley, Weeden, RG3 etc). After the team foolishly won some pointless grades and screwed up its draft slotting, Shanny still felt getting the QB in '12 was smarter than '13, because the '13 class had worrisome issues (Landry Jones back to back subpar years, Barkley was inconsistent, Tyler Bray and Wilson were entering make or break years etc) with all of the class in make or break years and with the redskins likely to be a 6-8 win team, a blue chip QB would be out of reach.

So they dealt the extra pair of #1's to insure that they got "their guy", rather than risk not getting remotely what was needed in the '13 class and delaying the development curve of the team that much more.

I thought the cost was insane, but necessary as Tannehill was a converted WR with an iffy track record, Weeden was way too old, Osweiller and Foles were far less talented, and the Wilson was too short.

A year later and RG3 had one of the best rookie years ever, the QB class in '13 is the worst QB class since 2000, and the '13 draft is considered perhaps the worst draft in nearly a decade.

Everything was very well thought out, hell, it was even so well thought out, that if RG3 had been a bust, the team would be in position to draft and develop another franchise option by the '15 draft when we had our first rounder again after losing the previous two. This trade? Nothing remotely like it, whether in terms of quality of prospects, planning, resourcefulness, or maximizing assets. It was just a panic move of epic stupidity, and even if it pays off, that won't validate the move, moves need to be made with forethought, planning, and insight, not out of impulse or panic. Save the latter kind of moves for ------ franchises like the Boulez, and the snyderatto redskins. I've liked a great deal of what GMGM has done over the years w/the draft and team building, but I loathed this.
 
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