Proposal: 2013-2014 Trade Deadline Talk - Part Deux - Kane, Wheeler & Patches

[Captain Hook]

Pens have Crosby and Malkin, so that automatically gives them a superior roster. At least that seems to be the mindset with this organization.

I think the fan base and local media is as or more guilty of that mindset than the team.

 

[mpp9]

Magic pie in the sky fixes all! FTW!

Lets continue plugging evident holes with players who have significant salaries but do not actually fit the needs we have.

I really like Gaborik's skillset, but acquiring him would be just as stupid as resigning Dupuis to a 3,75 million dollar contract.

This team has next to no one going to the net, winning battles in the corners or throwing checks.

And somehow Marian Gaborik is going to change that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think the fan base and local media is as or more guilty of that mindset than the team.

Local media? Probably. Fanbase, as in the HF fanbase, or just in general? Because a lot of folks on here have been saying for a while now that this roster isn't as good as they're trying to sell it as.

 

[Captain Hook]

Local media? Probably. Fanbase, as in the HF fanbase, or just in general? Because a lot of folks on here have been saying for a while now that this roster isn't as good as they're trying to sell it as.

There's a lot of people on here that complain that we haven't won a championship since 2009 despite having the two best players in the world. Those posters also use the two best players in the world and no championships since 2009 thing to criticize Bylsma.

I don't get criticizing the organization. I don't remember seeing Ray Shero or anyone else out there in the media trying to sell us on anything. Ray Shero made about as many moves as a GM could possibly make last deadline. It's not like he stood pat and said we're good enough because we have Sid and Geno.

 

[TheGreatPenguino]

So this is the Hawks forward lineup.

Sharp-Toews-Hossa
Saad-Pirri-Kane
Bickell-Shaw-Versteeg
Bollig-Kruger-Smith

vs.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
D'Agostini-Sutter-Beau
Glass-Vitale-Adams

I like to hope Shero doesn't think those two rosters are comparable.

Their lineup...is what wet Stanley cup dreams look like. Balanced to a T.

 

[cygnus47]

Their lineup...is what wet Stanley cup dreams look like. Balanced to a T.

Malkin + Crosby + Sutter >>>>> Toews + Pirri + Shaw

Thats.....thats all I've got.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I've been bouncing all over the country for most of this season, have only gotten to catch Pens games here and there, and havnt been able to follow other teams like in seasons past.

In Tampa, is Malone still a shell of his former self? Because if we could get Tampa to retain some salary and he isn't completely hollowed out as a player he could be an option.

 

[vodeni]

There's a lot of people on here that complain that we haven't won a championship since 2009 despite having the two best players in the world. Those posters also use the two best players in the world and no championships since 2009 thing to criticize Bylsma.

I don't get criticizing the organization. I don't remember seeing Ray Shero or anyone else out there in the media trying to sell us on anything. Ray Shero made about as many moves as a GM could possibly make last deadline. It's not like he stood pat and said we're good enough because we have Sid and Geno.

all but one, may I say, all but one that should have been done, will be eventually after wasting few years..

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I've been bouncing all over the country for most of this season, have only gotten to catch Pens games here and there, and havnt been able to follow other teams like in seasons past.

In Tampa, is Malone still a shell of his former self? Because if we could get Tampa to retain some salary and he isn't completely hollowed out as a player he could be an option.

Assuming Tampa won't take some of his salary I don't think it's viable. Seems like he's doing a little better this year but this year and next year at $4.5 mil is just too much cap space for what they'd be getting from him. Plus there's nothing we could trade to offset the salary, at least nothing that would make the trade worth it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

If Hossa said "yes" to our contract offer, we probably wouldn't even be having this problem or conversation. Sure, that means we would have probably needed to trade Staal sooner, but we would have got a comparable return of young talent anyway.

Scary thought, but if Hossa said 'yes' to us way back when, perhaps Dan Bylsma never happens at all.

You have to remember something though: You can call Bylsma an idiot all you want, but he's not the one making the trades. We're not in a situation like the Leafs were with Pat Quinn or whatever where we've got a Coach who is also the GM behind the bench. Bylsma is trying to do the best with what is given to him, and what we've given to him is basically a brick of Swiss Cheese: there are some holes in this line up. I'm not saying Bylsma is great, but he is not the one making player-personnel decisions that are the reason we're weak; rather, it's Shero not making forwards a priority and, if necessary, clearing the cap space of an Orpik or Niskanen to bring in a forward like a Brunner or Setoguchi or whoever. Shero has to make the move, and not for another rental, as mentioned.

OK, I get your point here but even when Shero DOES acquire the forwards we need, Bylsma mucks it up BIG TIME. I mean, the whole way Iginla was used was embarrassingly bad. Obviously Shero thought we needed help. We overpaid for both Morrow and Murray, no question, but Iginla wasn't an overpayment and SHOULD have reaped big rewards. But we screwed it up royally, and that cannot be blamed on Shero.

But I do agree, obviously, that he needs to deal some of the players we've had here for a while to improve our forward situation. It's primordial that he does this, but the GM and coach now seem to be on the same page since last summer. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

So this is the Hawks forward lineup.

Sharp-Toews-Hossa
Saad-Pirri-Kane
Bickell-Shaw-Versteeg
Bollig-Kruger-Smith

vs.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
D'Agostini-Sutter-Beau
Glass-Vitale-Adams

I like to hope Shero doesn't think those two rosters are comparable.

The scary thing about that Chicago forward group is how many are homegrown forwards: ALL but Sharp, Hossa and Versteeg are homegrown. That's pretty damn impressive. And their three top defensemen and starting goaltender are also homegrown.

There's a lot of people on here that complain that we haven't won a championship since 2009 despite having the two best players in the world. Those posters also use the two best players in the world and no championships since 2009 thing to criticize Bylsma.

I don't get criticizing the organization. I don't remember seeing Ray Shero or anyone else out there in the media trying to sell us on anything. Ray Shero made about as many moves as a GM could possibly make last deadline. It's not like he stood pat and said we're good enough because we have Sid and Geno.

He didn't say that at the trade deadline last year, but he sure as hell said exactly that this past summer: keeping Fleury as the starter, re-signing pretty much everybody to long-term deals, getting rid of the guys he brought in when he was all in...all of this is the epitome of "we have the two best players in the world, we'll be fine."

I've been bouncing all over the country for most of this season, have only gotten to catch Pens games here and there, and havnt been able to follow other teams like in seasons past.

In Tampa, is Malone still a shell of his former self? Because if we could get Tampa to retain some salary and he isn't completely hollowed out as a player he could be an option.

Assuming Tampa won't take some of his salary I don't think it's viable. Seems like he's doing a little better this year but this year and next year at $4.5 mil is just too much cap space for what they'd be getting from him. Plus there's nothing we could trade to offset the salary, at least nothing that would make the trade worth it.

He's now playing on the fourth line in Tampa Bay, with Nate Thompson and B.J. Crombeen. I don't think he's the answer to anything, and he wasn't even here when Bylsma started coaching. He might be too slow for Disco. Disco may not think he's enough of a grinder, or whatever. I don't see the need to go retro again here.

I think the more telling thing here is that he's on their fourth line, while we have guys like Glass playing on the third line sometimes. AND Tampa is a team comparable to us salary-structure wise and superstar-laden wise.

Of course, Tampa is churning out prospect over prospect right now and has so much spillage it's not even funny. Us? Not so much.

 

[mpp9]

Adrian Dater

6 days ago

Scouts from two new Eastern Conference teams at Avs-Flames game tonight...

Scouts from the Pittsburgh Penguins and Columbus Blue Jackets are here at the Pepsi Center to take in Avs-Flames. The Avs have played the Pens once, the Jackets no times.
The Jackets are rumored to be looking for a trade. We'll see.

Adrian Dater

about 19 hours ago

Scouts from seven NHL eastern teams at Avs-Blues game tonight. The list...

New York Rangers, Columbus Blue Jackets, Carolina Hurricanes, Pittsburgh Penguins, Toronto Maple Leafs, Montreal Canadiens and Tampa Bay Lightning.
Start your trade rumor engines now.

Scouts are gonna scout. But I think it's at least interesting we've been at two Avs games recently. McGinn would be a welcomed addition. Cheap. Fills a need. And the Avs would have varying levels of interest in Brooks, Despres and Nisky.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Malkin + Crosby + Sutter >>>>> Toews + Pirri + Shaw

Thats.....thats all I've got.

Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Versteeg, Saad, Bickell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, Jokinen, Bennett, Kobesew, Glass, Adams, etc.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Pens have Crosby and Malkin, so that automatically gives them a superior roster. At least that seems to be the mindset with this organization.

It hasn't always worked out how we wanted, but the organization has clearly made upgrading our wings a priority for years.

So this is the Hawks forward lineup.

Sharp-Toews-Hossa
Saad-Pirri-Kane
Bickell-Shaw-Versteeg
Bollig-Kruger-Smith

vs.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
D'Agostini-Sutter-Beau
Glass-Vitale-Adams

I like to hope Shero doesn't think those two rosters are comparable.

To be fair, no team in the league can boast Chicago's offensive depth and diversity right now.

 

[mpp9]

It hasn't always worked out how we wanted, but the organization has clearly made upgrading our wings a priority for years.

To be fair, no team in the league can boast Chicago's offensive depth and diversity right now.

They never replaced Malone/Guerin aside from a couple months of Morrow. It's pretty obvious this team has trouble scoring goals around the net. And making it hard on teams in that area. We can blame luck and the goalie standing on his head, but anyone with eyes can see that's an area of weakness.

And aside from a couple months of Hossa, Sid has not had a legit skilled RW in his 8 years here.

We're not far off from icing a contending team. But we're pretenders until those issues are solved.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It hasn't always worked out how we wanted, but the organization has clearly made upgrading our wings a priority for years.

Has it? And I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that. But from my count, the only true attempts at legitimate upgrades over the course of Sid and Geno's career are Hossa and Neal. The rest of the time, Shero and Co. seems to either make due with what's left over, or attempt to bring in an aging vet who was once a legitimate winger.

This past off-season, they decided that Dupuis and Kunitz were more than enough to play with Sid. No attempted upgrade, particularly on Dupuis.

Last season, the upgrade at wing was for an aging Iginla who, while I was for the trade (not going to pretend I wasn't stoked about it) isn't the same all-star player he was about 3 or 4 seasons ago. He was basically the new Bill Guerin, who again a few years ago was brought in well past his prime as Sid's winger "upgrade".

Between the Dupuis and the Guerins and the Iginlas of this world, we see guys like Mike Comrie, Steve Sullivan, and Miro Satan brought in to be the upgrades in the top six. Hardly guys I'd say constitute the organization putting a lot of emphasis on surrounding Sid and Geno with high-end talent.

So, since Crosby entered the league, Sid and Geno have played with 2 wingers who were, at the time, in the prime of their best offensive seasons. One of them (Hossa) was only around for about 2 months. So I'm not really seeing how the club has made it a priority.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

As it stands now the difference between our forwards and those of the Hawks, Kings, Bruins, and I'd say the Canucks, is Crosby and Malkin's salaries when compared to those of Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Krejci, the Sedins, etc. Of course the reason for that is obvious but it's pros and cons in a cap era.

There's no cash laying around for a Hossa, Sharp, Brown, Kesler, you get the idea. We're able to squeeze in Neal but other than that we've got to be creative and/or draft forwards really well, neither of which are really happening.

This is actually the team's biggest problem roster-wise if you ask me. The game favors deep rosters of good to very good players, but you don't want to get rid of the guys we have either because of how dynamic they are.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

They never replaced Malone/Guerin aside from a couple months of Morrow. It's pretty obvious this team has trouble scoring goals around the net. And making it hard on teams in that area. We can blame luck and the goalie standing on his head, but anyone with eyes can see that's an area of weakness.

And aside from a couple months of Hossa, Sid has not had a legit skilled RW in his 8 years here.

We're not far off from icing a contending team. But we're pretenders until those issues are solved.

Not bending over backwards to acquire a winger with a specific skillset is not the same as standing pat because we assume Crosby and Malkin are skilled enough to see us through. Over Shero's tenure, he has made an effort to acquire top 6 wing upgrades almost yearly.

Has it? And I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that. But from my count, the only true attempts at legitimate upgrades over the course of Sid and Geno's career are Hossa and Neal. The rest of the time, Shero and Co. seems to either make due with what's left over, or attempt to bring in an aging vet who was once a legitimate winger.

"True attempts at legitimate upgrades" sounds to me like a vague way of dancing around Shero's moves that were obviously made with an eye to improving our scoring wing situation. Are the only wings that qualify all-stars in their prime? Sure seems that way, though you'd hardly have to be a prime all-star to be a legit upgrade over what we've had.

Guerin, Kunitz, Hossa, Ponikarovsky, Neal, Iginla, and Morrow were all moves made with the intention of helping our scoring wing situation. And this is a GM who had severe cap constraints to deal with for the majority of that time.

As it stands now the difference between our forwards and those of the Hawks, Kings, Bruins, and I'd say the Canucks, is Crosby and Malkin's salaries when compared to those of Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Krejci, the Sedins, etc. Of course the reason for that is obvious but it's pros and cons in a cap era.

There's no cash laying around for a Hossa, Sharp, Brown, Kesler, you get the idea. We're able to squeeze in Neal but other than that we've got to be creative and/or draft forwards really well, neither of which are really happening.

This is actually the team's biggest problem if you ask me. The game favors deep rosters of good to very good players, but you don't want to get rid of the guys we have either because of how dynamic they are.

That's primarily why we draft BPA and make deals at the deadline, IMHO. Gives us the best assets, which allows us to deal from strength at a time of the year when we can absorb big cap hits.

 

[Hottubber]

As it stands now the difference between our forwards and those of the Hawks, Kings, Bruins, and I'd say the Canucks, is Crosby and Malkin's salaries when compared to those of Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Krejci, the Sedins, etc. Of course the reason for that is obvious but it's pros and cons in a cap era.

There's no cash laying around for a Hossa, Sharp, Brown, Kesler, you get the idea. We're able to squeeze in Neal but other than that we've got to be creative and/or draft forwards really well, neither of which are really happening.

This is actually the team's biggest problem roster-wise if you ask me. The game favors deep rosters of good to very good players, but you don't want to get rid of the guys we have either because of how dynamic they are.

Letangs 7+ million next year isn't going to help the lack of cap space to add another forward either.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

"True attempts at legitimate upgrades" sounds to me like a vague way of dancing around Shero's moves that were obviously made with an eye to improving our scoring wing situation. Are the only wings that qualify all-stars in their prime? Sure seems that way, though you'd hardly have to be a prime all-star to be a legit upgrade over what we've had.

Guerin, Kunitz, Hossa, Ponikarovsky, Neal, Iginla, and Morrow were all moves made with the intention of helping our scoring wing situation. And this is a GM who had severe cap constraints to deal with for the majority of that time.

But the post of yours I quoted talked about how much of a priority upgrading the wingers are. There's a difference between not completely ignoring something, and actually making it a priority. In other words, being a priority means it's the first focus of a GM, not item #4 or #5 on his to do list once he's done worrying about every other position.

It's the difference between the Kings bringing in Jeff Carter because their offense was struggling, and the Blues signing Brenden Morrow to add to their depth. In both cases, they "upgraded" their scoring depth. But only in the Kings' case did they make it a priority to address specifically their deficiencies in goal scoring, while the Blues were merely adding to their depth in an area they were already fine with.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But the post of yours I quoted talked about how much of a priority upgrading the wingers are. There's a difference between not completely ignoring something, and actually making it a priority. In other words, being a priority means it's the first focus of a GM, not item #4 or #5 on his to do list once he's done worrying about every other position.

It's the difference between the Kings bringing in Jeff Carter because their offense was struggling, and the Blues signing Brenden Morrow to add to their depth. In both cases, they "upgraded" their scoring depth. But only in the Kings' case did they make it a priority to address specifically their deficiencies in goal scoring, while the Blues were merely adding to their depth in an area they were already fine with.

We've made more big deals for scoring wingers than any other position, and this despite being in a much better situation offensively than the Kings were when they acquired Carter. The Pens have been first in the league in scoring the last two years, and the Kings were 2nd last when they traded for Carter in '11-'12.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

As it stands now the difference between our forwards and those of the Hawks, Kings, Bruins, and I'd say the Canucks, is Crosby and Malkin's salaries when compared to those of Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron, Krejci, the Sedins, etc. Of course the reason for that is obvious but it's pros and cons in a cap era.

There's no cash laying around for a Hossa, Sharp, Brown, Kesler, you get the idea. We're able to squeeze in Neal but other than that we've got to be creative and/or draft forwards really well, neither of which are really happening.

This is actually the team's biggest problem roster-wise if you ask me. The game favors deep rosters of good to very good players, but you don't want to get rid of the guys we have either because of how dynamic they are.

This is simply not true. There is more than enough space to go around if you have your priorities right.

Kuni and Duper make a combines 7.5M and you have Orpik making 3.75 to go through the motions in the reg season. Then you hold onto a 2.3M 7th Dman and keep two guys who can play in the NHL at under a mill in the AHL.

If upgrading the top 6 was an actual priority for Shero we wouldn't be in the 8th consecutive season where Sid started without a top flight winger.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We've made more big deals for scoring wingers than any other position, and this despite being in a much better situation offensively than the Kings were when they acquired Carter. The Pens have been first in the league in scoring the last two years, and the Kings were 2nd last when they traded for Carter in '11-'12.

But how many of those deals were what would be considered upgrade-like deals? I don't care if Shero signs 50 Ponikarovskys or 50 thirty eight year old Guerins or 50 Mike Comries, that doesn't mean it's a priority to upgrade the wing position if the player you're adding has no or very limited actually impact.

A priority (to my mind, anyway -- you seem to see it differently) is actually focusing on bringing in someone who will definitely improve a given position. If you've got a hole in nets, a priority would be doing everything possible to bring in a top end goalie, whether it be via trade or free agency (ie. Toronto with Bernier, New Jersey with Schneider). In comparison, acquiring guys like Mathieu Garon or Al Montoya each free agent season -- while addressing the goalie issue -- isn't exactly making upgrading it a priority.

IMO, that's where we differ when it comes to this organization making the winger position a priority. You're fine with whoever, so long as they actually add a winger. I'd like to see them put more focus on actually bringing in difference makers. More guys like Hossa or Neal, and less guys like Ponikarovsky, Morrow, Comrie, or Satan.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But how many of those deals were what would be considered upgrade-like deals? I don't care if Shero signs 50 Ponikarovskys or 50 thirty eight year old Guerins or 50 Mike Comries, that doesn't mean it's a priority to upgrade the wing position if the player you're adding has no or very limited actually impact.

A priority (to my mind, anyway -- you seem to see it differently) is actually focusing on bringing in someone who will definitely improve a given position. If you've got a hole in nets, a priority would be doing everything possible to bring in a top end goalie, whether it be via trade or free agency (ie. Toronto with Bernier, New Jersey with Schneider). In comparison, acquiring guys like Mathieu Garon or Al Montoya each free agent season -- while addressing the goalie issue -- isn't exactly making upgrading it a priority.

IMO, that's where we differ when it comes to this organization making the winger position a priority. You're fine with whoever, so long as they actually add a winger. I'd like to see them put more focus on actually bringing in difference makers. More guys like Hossa or Neal, and less guys like Ponikarovsky, Morrow, Comrie, or Satan.

Even if you limit it to Hossa, Kunitz, Neal, and Iginla, he's made more big deals for legit scoring wings than any other position. Saying it hasn't been a priority just has no support when you look at Shero's track record.

 

[#66]

Yes, you are somewhat wrong because VAN values Jensen really highly. Great example of using draft picks properly, though, because if the Pens really wanted a Jensen or Rattie or Rakell or Brett Ritchie, they could have had them instead of Morrow in the draft.

Also, Vancouver, in the last 2 years, has drafted Brendan Gaunce and Bo Horvat. So their long-term weakness at the centre position has been addressed, and in the interim, Santorelli has been really good. I'm not saying definitively that there's no trade to be had there, but it does make it less likely. Also, while I like Kassian, and while I'm not averse to trading Sutter, I would want more of a sure-thing than Kassian for Sutter. (Kassian for Samuelsson++ or a 1st rounder or something, maybe, but for Sutter I would want someone like a Jacob Silfverberg, even if we had to add).

AND, IF we trade Sutter, Jeffrey has to be the guy to take his place. So throwing Jeffrey in with Sutter creates a massive hole for us at centre. I do believe Jeffrey has the ability to be a very good 3rd line centre, which is why I'm open to trading Sutter for the right return, and vice-versa, but we can't trade both of these guys. Our other centre prospects are just WAY too far away and there's not a sure thing amongst that bunch.




Ok, that's a HORRIBLE proposal. I think Kulemin could be a good fit here, but not a snowball's chance in hell is he worth Brandon Sutter, especially when he's going to be a UFA at the end of the year! Are you on crack?

Also, I'm all for trading Despres, but ONLY if we get a BLUE-CHIP prospect. Samuelsson is a nice player, but he projects more as a really good 3rd liner, or perhaps a decent 2nd liner, and is NOWHERE close to helping out this team now. He'll need at least a year or 2 in the AHL before he's ready, whereas Despres could either garner us an NHL ready player, a better prospect, or could play in Orpik or Niskanen's spot if the Pens had the balls to trade one of those guys. If Despres goes, it should be for an a guy like Etem, Silfverberg, Smith-Pelley, etc... And I would rather add, even a lot if necessary (i.e. a 1st round pick, etc.) to a package to get that special winger that we need.

I guess it depends on what you think of the players.. I don't think much of Sutter or Despres. If Sutter didn't have that name on his back I think he gets thought of along Colby lines but a lot less physical. I actually can't stand him as a center and want him to be moved to wing while taking the off faceoff.

IMO Samuelsson could be something between Cooke and Backes. Sure a third liner but one that can play 17-20 mins an be a grating 20-20 player. I don't think Despres is a bad player but more of a solid Dman in the Hamrlik or Ohlund mold. Good not great.

I'm a big Silfverberg fan but I don't think Despres gets that kind of return.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Wait... you guys know Samuelsson plays defense, right?

Or have I just totally blanked on a rather important position change in recent years/months/weeks?