Proposal: 2013-2014 Trade Deadline Talk - Part Deux - Kane, Wheeler & Patches

[Darth Vitale]

Florida is not trading Barkov. The drafted him over Jones and Droin. Why would they trade him for Sutter + 1st + guy who will walk in July?

Because they'll sign the guy for more than he's likely to get in FA (which may not be a lot). That's only if they're having a fire sale. Fire sales are different from other trade setups in that the team selling has less leverage. I don't think Barkov, given how little time he's been in the league, would create a bidding war so it's plausible a payment like that could work.

If not, I'd consider throwing one of our better D prospects into the mix (Dumoulin maybe). Someone big, steady and NHL ready.

1st + Sutter + Dumoulin would be hard for them to turn down IF... they're having a fire sale. That's a pretty good package for a doormat team to give up one of several top prospects they have playing now. I don't think too many teams would offer appreciably more than that for an untested player. But like I said if we pay big for an untested top prospect, he's the one I'd go after. Way before Yakupov. Hell, maybe Despres is involved. Who knows. But I think it could be done without giving away a big asset currently on the roster.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

WRT to Florida, there are two guys I'd look at closely as a replacement for Sutter and a way to free up space:

Matthias. Small price -- I think we could get him for Niskanen probably and nothing more.

Barkov. Go big and forget about this year's draft -- 2014 1st + Sutter + Nisky for Barkov + Panthers 2014 2nd/3rd (either late 2nd if they have more than 1, or their 1st 3rd). Basically 2014 1st + Sutter for Barkov, Nisky for 2nd.

Gives them an immediate 2C replacement, immediate depth on D (neither guy is old or too expensive), and an extra 1st rounder this year during Rebuild Part Deux. I know Barkov is highly touted but he's still unproven / raw, so I think they might do that... IF they're really going to have a fire sale. If not, they wouldn't.

I'd make a big payment for Barkov before Yakupov for sure. Maybe in two years that will look silly, but most likely it will look smart.

Bob McKenzie said all but FIVE Panthers are available. There's a 100% chance Barkov is among those five untouchables.

Of course you'd make a big payment for Barkov before Yakupov...one is a pipe dream, the other is actually potentially available.

To further annoy anyone who doesn't like Chris Stewart. Derek Roy is currently playing 4th line LW after being brought in to get Stew going. With Steen being due big money in the offseason, Berglund, Schwartz, Sobotka needing new contracts, as well as Halak/Elliot, they'll be looking to dump salary.

And with Kule being a UFA in the summer, my dream combo is still alive.

As for this season, I'm fine with giving Beau more opportunity with Sid/Geno and picking up a stopgap top 9 guy with size like Winnik.

The Derek Roy-Vladimir Sobotka-Chris Stewart line is actually the Blues' No. 2 line right now, not No. 4. Morrow-POS Lapierre-Reaves is their fourth line.

But I do like your passionate insistence...and for the record, I actually do like Chris Stewart a lot.

As for Winnik, why would the Cup-contending Ducks move him?

 

[Darth Vitale]

To further annoy anyone who doesn't like Chris Stewart. Derek Roy is currently playing 4th line LW after being brought in to get Stew going. With Steen being due big money in the offseason, Berglund, Schwartz, Sobotka needing new contracts, as well as Halak/Elliot, they'll be looking to dump salary.

I don't see STL selling off any key pieces if they're on the verge of a Cup run (which I think they are). Stewart is still pretty risky though. He's one of those guys who has the big reputation and is just good enough statistically that you have to pay through the nose for him (most likely), without the guarantee coming back. I think we'd pay considerably more than what we paid for Neal, and get a lesser version of same in terms of scoring.

 

[Shady Machine]

Because they'll sign the guy for more than he's likely to get in FA (which may not be a lot). That's only if they're having a fire sale. Fire sales are different from other trade setups in that the team selling has less leverage. I don't think Barkov, given how little time he's been in the league, would create a bidding war so it's plausible a payment like that could work.

If not, I'd consider throwing one of our better D prospects into the mix (Dumoulin maybe). Someone big, steady and NHL ready.

1st + Sutter + Dumoulin would be hard for them to turn down IF... they're having a fire sale. That's a pretty good package for a doormat team to give up one of several top prospects they have playing now. I don't think too many teams would offer appreciably more than that for an untested player. But like I said if we pay big for an untested top prospect, he's the one I'd go after. Way before Yakupov. Hell, maybe Despres is involved. Who knows. But I think it could be done without giving away a big asset currently on the roster.

Fire sales are usually to trade veterans, not a guy they drafted in June.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Bob McKenzie said all but FIVE Panthers are available. There's a 100% chance Barkov is among those five untouchables.

Of course you'd make a big payment for Barkov before Yakupov...one is a pipe dream, the other is actually potentially available.

To your first point, fair enough. We were (at first) just going off speculation with no specifics about who might be for sale. Fire Sale usually means everyone is available for a price, including as we know, the Jagrs of the world. Although totally different reasons for having a fire sale (just making the general point that everyone has a price).

To your second point, I don't get that logic at all. Both are media darling Top 3 picks who are supposed to set the world on fire, neither of whom have proven much, both on ****** teams. Their value and availability, absent a specific piece of info, should be considered the same.

If we happen to know McKenzie said no Barkov then your point stands. But it would stand to reason they would not give up on Barkov, Budgranson, and their other elite prospect types if they're rebuilding. I'd still take a shot at it. They might value reasonably skilled, young, low cost players like Sutter and Nisky as part of their plan and they'd certainly value the extra 1st round pick.

 

[mpp9]

The Derek Roy-Vladimir Sobotka-Chris Stewart line is actually the Blues' No. 2 line right now, not No. 4. Morrow-POS Lapierre-Reaves is their fourth line.

But I do like your passionate insistence...and for the record, I actually do like Chris Stewart a lot.

As for Winnik, why would the Cup-contending Ducks move him?

Giving DSP Winnik's role and upgrading their D would be something that is a net positive for them in my view.

And Roy has been moved down to their 4th line. Morrow moved up. But the point is that Roy isn't their solution as a scoring line center. Sobotka is not someone you want handling that role in the playoffs. So they'll need to address that at some point. While also re-signing their core.

I'm talking about the offseason. I could see Stastny heading their way, with Mackinnon having a full year under his belt and needing to commit to ROR longterm.

 

[mpp9]

I don't see STL selling off any key pieces if they're on the verge of a Cup run (which I think they are). Stewart is still pretty risky though. He's one of those guys who has the big reputation and is just good enough statistically that you have to pay through the nose for him (most likely), without the guarantee coming back. I think we'd pay considerably more than what we paid for Neal, and get a lesser version of same in terms of scoring.

I dont' think his value is any higher than Perron, and that wasn't some blockbuster. And this time, the Blues won't need a forward back to replace him. They have options in the system, and would likely want a package around futures to shed salary. NHL ready D prospect and a 1st.

The line he plays on is garbage. Brendan Morrow is on the LW right now. And Sobotka is his center. I'd absolutely take the gamble on him. Everything he's good at fills needs here.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I dont' think his value is any higher than Perron, and that wasn't some blockbuster. And this time, the Blues won't need a forward back to replace him. They have options in the system, and would likely want a package around futures to shed salary. NHL ready D prospect and a 1st.

The line he plays on is garbage. Brendan Morrow is on the LW right now. And Sobotka is his center. I'd absolutely take the gamble on him. Everything he's good at fills needs here.

I mean... if he can be had for cheap (not really sure what we have that they'd want unless it was a pure financial move) then great. I'd probably give up Despres for him, if that's all it took. I would not give up Bennett, Harry or even Pouliot I don't think. And I would not want to move a key roster piece for him. He's just too streaky. He's played with several good C now and produced only sporadically.

I still say he's not as good as a lot of people think he is. The skill is there but he doesn't convert consistently enough.

 

[mpp9]

I mean... if he can be had for cheap (not really sure what we have that they'd want unless it was a pure financial move) then great. I'd probably give up Despres for him, if that's all it took. I would not give up Bennett, Harry or even Pouliot I don't think. And I would not want to move a key roster piece for him. He's just too streaky. He's played with several good C now and produced only sporadically.

I still say he's not as good as a lot of people think he is. The skill is there but he doesn't convert consistently enough.

We couldn't afford him if he didn't have warts. But he has great wheels for a big guy, which he can use to score off the rush. Goes to the net and has the size to be effective there. Would make it a priority to protect Sid from the ******** he sees on a game to game basis. His strengths would be accentuated here. And his warts, mitigated.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Here's a question: would you guys trade Letang for Budgranson (sounds better) and Barkov?

Fun with hypotheticals.

I'm not advocating it. In fact I'm not sure if I'd do it, but I wonder if that "5 off the table rule" would be nixed if Shero told them Letang was available. If you're Florida's GM do you do that? I haven't watched "Bud" long enough to know if he's likely to pan out into the stud he's supposed to become, but there's definitely some risk there. OTOH, his poor performance could have a lot to do with the team around him.

Barkov I think is more of a sure thing despite his lack of time in the NHL. He just strikes me as one of those guys who will succeed because of how his game is built.

 

[IcedCapp]

Here's a question: would you guys trade Letang for Budgranson (sounds better) and Barkov?

Fun with hypotheticals.

I'm not advocating it. In fact I'm not sure if I'd do it, but I wonder if that "5 off the table rule" would be nixed if Shero told them Letang was available. If you're Florida's GM do you do that? I haven't watched "Bud" long enough to know if he's likely to pan out into the stud he's supposed to become, but there's definitely some risk there. OTOH, his poor performance could have a lot to do with the team around him.

Barkov I think is more of a sure thing despite his lack of time in the NHL. He just strikes me as one of those guys who will succeed because of how his game is built.

no but it's close. I'm not sure either player coming back is as good/established as I'd want, but those are the two kinds of pieces. If it happened, I would hate it, because Letang is rare, but I don't think it would go down as one of the worst trades ever

 

[Frederick Stanley]

I'm sorry but Barkov?

There's a higher chance we trade for Kovalchuk.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

To your first point, fair enough. We were (at first) just going off speculation with no specifics about who might be for sale. Fire Sale usually means everyone is available for a price, including as we know, the Jagrs of the world. Although totally different reasons for having a fire sale (just making the general point that everyone has a price).

To your second point, I don't get that logic at all. Both are media darling Top 3 picks who are supposed to set the world on fire, neither of whom have proven much, both on ****** teams. Their value and availability, absent a specific piece of info, should be considered the same.

If we happen to know McKenzie said no Barkov then your point stands. But it would stand to reason they would not give up on Barkov, Budgranson, and their other elite prospect types if they're rebuilding. I'd still take a shot at it. They might value reasonably skilled, young, low cost players like Sutter and Nisky as part of their plan and they'd certainly value the extra 1st round pick.

DV, what you're missing here is the Florida Panthers LOVE Aleksander Barkov! They loved him so much they passed on a generational talent like Seth Jones!

The Oilers don't love Yakupov. They may not even like him. They were FORCED to take him first overall because they didn't want to avoid taking the BPA. They LOVED Ryan Murray. They SHOULD have drafted Alex Galchenyuk, but that's neither here nor there.

Giving DSP Winnik's role and upgrading their D would be something that is a net positive for them in my view.

And Roy has been moved down to their 4th line. Morrow moved up. But the point is that Roy isn't their solution as a scoring line center. Sobotka is not someone you want handling that role in the playoffs. So they'll need to address that at some point. While also re-signing their core.

I'm talking about the offseason. I could see Stastny heading their way, with Mackinnon having a full year under his belt and needing to commit to ROR longterm.

Well, I think for Hitch Sobotka is fine. Hitch is a lot like Disco: BOTH would rather have David Backes than Evgeni Malkin as their No. 1 center.

In the end, it won't matter because Hitchcock's teams can't score when it matters.

Here's a question: would you guys trade Letang for Budgranson (sounds better) and Barkov?

OF COURSE, but there's not a chance in hell Dale Tallon does that deal. None.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I'm sorry but Barkov?

There's a higher chance we trade for Kovalchuk.

I disagree. It's not likely, but it's not that unlikely either. IF they're going to be having a big sale.
Someone is bound to make an offer for him in that case.

Stranger things have happened and Tallon is not on a long time-scale here. He's been there a while already and if his rebuild has failed to the point of starting over, he's going to want to bring in a solid group of reliable players to surround his "keepers" with. He's not going to be building from the draft as much as other team's roster players. Barkov is obviously critical to them but if you give them enough assets to work with in any area they perceive as weak, anything is possible.

Again not saying it will happen but if Tallon starts going bananas on the phones and I'm Shero, I'm looking at some of our stud D, some of our better F, and our early picks, and I'm making a call at least / kicking the tires.

DV, what you're missing here is the Florida Panthers LOVE Aleksander Barkov! They loved him so much they passed on a generational talent like Seth Jones!

A. It's WAY too early to label Seth Jones as a "generational talent". He's not even the best D on his own team and he's played fewer than 20 games in the NHL.

B. You guys have bought into the Draft and media hype obviously. Barkov is still a relative unknown. I'm trying to think about what it would take (in a thread like this) to get a kid like him in a trade, and given the state of the Panthers I don't think it's as much as you might imagine. OTOH it could be more than I imagine, too.

I realize full well it's not going to happen (i.e. we won't even attempt it) but I think we have the assets to do something like that, without trading any of our 4 most valuable players. Your points about FLA liking Barkov more than EDM liking Yakupov is fair.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Fire sales are usually to trade veterans, not a guy they drafted in June.

This. You hit the wobbly pops early today, DV?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

A. It's WAY too early to label Seth Jones as a "generational talent". He's not even the best D on his own team and he's played fewer than 20 games in the NHL.

He's not the best defenseman on his team because he plays with the best all-round defenseman in the NHL. That alone doesn't prevent him from being labeled a generational talent, which I truly believe he is.

I don't think there's ever been a defenseman with his size who skates like him.

 

[DrDangles]

Yes, lets trade Sutter and open up a giant gap at 3C next year when we can't afford to re-sign Jokinen.

 

[SEALBound]

Yes, lets trade Sutter and open up a giant gap at 3C next year when we can't afford to re-sign Jokinen.

Thats why you try to swing a Sutter (youth) for Ott.

 

[Tender Rip]

**** the deadline.
Lets just hope that team management takes a good, hard look at what our actual problems are and how that relates to certain competences we are short of.

Besides obviously the lingering coaching questions on which we can all disagree vociferously... but I don't think the organization is there with the grumpy ones among us at all, unfortunately.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Yes, lets trade Sutter and open up a giant gap at 3C next year when we can't afford to re-sign Jokinen.

The way Sutter plays, losing him is the least of my concerns. Vern Fiddler or 10 other guys could fill his spot with no problem.

Sutter is one of the most overrated Pens I've seen in many a years. The guy is a ghost 80% of the games.

Deal him now while he has value.

 

[MrBurghundy]

The way Sutter plays, losing him is the least of my concerns. Vern Fiddler or 10 other guys could fill his spot with no problem.

Sutter is one of the most overrated Pens I've seen in many a years. The guy is a ghost 80% of the games.

Deal him now while he has value.

Which is why I hated people proposing a trade with Carolina from the beginning. Staal really screwed that pooch. Shero should have traded him sooner though. Before that info could get out.

 

[jmelm]

I think the Pens "problem" is very simple: outside of a small handful of players (Sid, Malkin, Letang, and perhaps one day Bennett), we really do not have anyone who is a "gamebreaker".

There are a lot of teams who may be weaker than us overall, but have better offensive ability, or ability to adapt to defending teams. Our ability to come back when we're trailing, or to generate offense against teams playing well defensively, has really tailed off of late. I attribute this to the notion that not only could Crosby benefit from a better winger to take some of the pressure off him (i.e. if he's getting double-teamed defensively), but also our complete lack of offense on our 3rd & 4th lines, which was previously a strength when we had the Cooke--Staal--Kennedy line together.

In short: we SERIOUSLY need one or two more NHL ready talented forwards. Not D'Aggostini, and not Kobasew. I am hopeful that we may have a couple of guys who can contribute in Archibald & Kuhnhackl, but that is 1-2 years away. We really need a player or two who can generate offense for us right now. I know cap space is an issue, but hey: we can solve that by getting a talented youngster who doesn't make a lot of $ for one of multitude of D prospects, or trade an Orpik or Niskanen.

And on that latter note: I'm just thinking: that opportunity that Orpik had in the slot late in the game, if that was Dumoulin or Despres or Maatta, that would have probably been a goal.

 

[TheBeardofJustice]

I think the Pens "problem" is very simple: outside of a small handful of players (Sid, Malkin, Letang, and perhaps one day Bennett), we really do not have anyone who is a "gamebreaker".

There are a lot of teams who may be weaker than us overall, but have better offensive ability, or ability to adapt to defending teams. Our ability to come back when we're trailing, or to generate offense against teams playing well defensively, has really tailed off of late. I attribute this to the notion that not only could Crosby benefit from a better winger to take some of the pressure off him (i.e. if he's getting double-teamed defensively), but also our complete lack of offense on our 3rd & 4th lines, which was previously a strength when we had the Cooke--Staal--Kennedy line together.

In short: we SERIOUSLY need one or two more NHL ready talented forwards. Not D'Aggostini, and not Kobasew. I am hopeful that we may have a couple of guys who can contribute in Archibald & Kuhnhackl, but that is 1-2 years away. We really need a player or two who can generate offense for us right now. I know cap space is an issue, but hey: we can solve that by getting a talented youngster who doesn't make a lot of $ for one of multitude of D prospects, or trade an Orpik or Niskanen.

And on that latter note: I'm just thinking: that opportunity that Orpik had in the slot late in the game, if that was Dumoulin or Despres or Maatta, that would have probably been a goal.

Someone in the Post-game thread pointed out something very depressing. We have these game breakers in Malkin and Sid and have deprived them of quality line mates. Yet, how have we compensated? Saving money by having relatively cheap wingers for Sid and Geno would be fine if we had bought great goaltending talent or defense. Instead, we have sacrificed on our defense too. Where the hell is the money going? Jesus.

 

[Captain Hook]

They just seem to lack reliable depth that can pick up the slack when Sid and/or Geno are slumping.

I think they also could use a big body that can score an ugly goal or two around the net on the PP or at ES.

I really think Dupuis can be a great 3rd liner. Maybe even one of the best in the league. I can only hope that the Pens eventually see that's where he belongs and put someone more skilled on that top line with Sid. I don't care if it's Bennett or a trade acquisition.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Someone in the Post-game thread pointed out something very depressing. We have these game breakers in Malkin and Sid and have deprived them of quality line mates. Yet, how have we compensated? Saving money by having relatively cheap wingers for Sid and Geno would be fine if we had bought great goaltending talent or defense. Instead, we have sacrificed on our defense too. Where the hell is the money going? Jesus.

It doesn't matter if our coach doesn't play those players with our centers.

Let's acquire a future HoF winger and play him out of position with Malkin. He's been a beast with Boston this year in the games I've seen.

Let's take one of the few talented wings we have in Bennett and play him on the 3rd line.

I swear we could have Ovechkin, Perry, St. Louis, and Kessel and Bylsma would find a way to play them on the 3rd and 4th line to **** it all up.