Proposal: 2013-2014 Trade Deadline Talk - Part Deux - Kane, Wheeler & Patches

[#66]

Wait... you guys know Samuelsson plays defense, right?

Or have I just totally blanked on a rather important position change in recent years/months/weeks?

Henrik's a LW, C and pretty good too. You might be thinking of Phil.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Wait... you guys know Samuelsson plays defense, right?

Or have I just totally blanked on a rather important position change in recent years/months/weeks?

They were talkin bout trading for Henrik, of PHX fame.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I think both Henrik and Phil (when jmelm mention Samuelsson++ for Kassian as a deal he would consider) were being referenced in that discussion.

I, for one, would welcome all Samuelsson's to the Penguins. Can Ulf be talked out of retirement?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah, my mistake. I see what happened there.

Anyway... Philip Samuelsson should totally switch positions to RW.

I, for one, would welcome all Samuelsson's to the Penguins. Can Ulf be talked out of retirement?

They need to get Kjell Samuelsson in on that too, of course.

 

[Tender Rip]

Not bending over backwards to acquire a winger with a specific skillset is not the same as standing pat because we assume Crosby and Malkin are skilled enough to see us through. Over Shero's tenure, he has made an effort to acquire top 6 wing upgrades almost yearly.

Yes, at the deadline, because evidently we did not address the needs in the offseason. We have a team where Simon Despres plays in the AHL, a league he is simply too good for, due to D-congestion (at the same time as we are scratching a very capable NHL'er in Bortuzzo and having Scuderi out injured), while having real needs to fill on both of our top forward lines.

"True attempts at legitimate upgrades" sounds to me like a vague way of dancing around Shero's moves that were obviously made with an eye to improving our scoring wing situation. Are the only wings that qualify all-stars in their prime?

No, it would certainly be great if we moved for younger talent that matched our requirements and could grow with the team. Indeed, that is what most are hoping for. Neal is the only such example although Kunitz of course has worked out very well too.

Guerin, Kunitz, Hossa, Ponikarovsky, Neal, Iginla, and Morrow were all moves made with the intention of helping our scoring wing situation.

Certainly they were. And all were made at the deadline, half of them panned out, a third of them were retained as Pens. Considering the expense of doing this, the success of this strategy is certainly up for debate.

That's primarily why we draft BPA and make deals at the deadline, IMHO. Gives us the best assets, which allows us to deal from strength at a time of the year when we can absorb big cap hits.

.... at a time where assets costs the most to acquire and the players being available are usually expiring contracts/aging players. Not disputing that this is the strategy - but certainly one can argue its merits.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Even if you limit it to Hossa, Kunitz, Neal, and Iginla, he's made more big deals for legit scoring wings than any other position. Saying it hasn't been a priority just has no support when you look at Shero's track record.

This is Crosby's 9th season in the league. This is Malkin's 8th season in the league. Those four guys (and Kunitz is a bit of a stretch in terms of discussing top end wingers to play with our stars, if we're talking about the comparisons to linemates guys like Stamkos, Toews, Ovechkin, etc. have had during the same time) are the only players even remotely close to long-term top six options he's acquired over a 9 season span. Two of them (Iggy and Hossa) were rentals. So in fact, Neal is the only "elite" winger Shero's managed to acquire/sign who actually helped Sid/Geno over more than one season.

The reason I mention the rental thing is because it shows that every season, for about the first 60 or so games until the deadline, the priority isn't to start the season with top end wingers for Sid or Geno. Meaning they're playing with the Satans, Dupuis, Fedotenkos, etc. of the world for 2/3rds of the season, every season. Compare that to the priority he has put on defense, with the signings of guys like Martin, Michalek, Scuderi, etc., who were signed to multiple years and who were signed not as deadline rentals, but to be assets for the full 82 game schedule. You don't see a bit more priority put toward the defense than any sort of long term answer to the wing situation?

Fact is, this team's strength is Crosby and Malkin. And during their careers, Shero has acquired exactly two impact wingers during their tenure. And with regards to Crosby in particular, has played with exactly *one* impact winger his entire career as a Pen in Hossa, for about 2 months. Granted, perhaps that number could have been two if a certain coach actually played Sid with Iginla. But that's another topic altogether.

 

[mpp9]

Apparently ROR has been money on wing with Duchene. If theres a center out there that plays faster than Sid, its Duchene. Would be intetesting to see an elite two way guy with Sid.

That'd be someone Id consider ponying up the assets. Roster D+D prospect+1st.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yes, at the deadline, because evidently we did not address the needs in the offseason. We have a team where Simon Despres plays in the AHL, a league he is simply too good for, due to D-congestion (at the same time as we are scratching a very capable NHL'er in Bortuzzo and having Scuderi out injured), while having real needs to fill on both of our top forward lines.

CAP.

No, it would certainly be great if we moved for younger talent that matched our requirements and could grow with the team. Indeed, that is what most are hoping for. Neal is the only such example although Kunitz of course has worked out very well too.

That's moving the goalposts, TR. First it was "making wingers a priority", and now it's "acquiring 3+ wingers young enough to grow with the team who work out and stay long-term".

Never mind Shero dealt Michalek for peanuts so he could pursue Parise at 7+ mil last summer. But that didn't work out, so I guess that means it wasn't a priority?

Certainly they were. And all were made at the deadline, half of them panned out, a third of them were retained as Pens. Considering the expense of doing this, the success of this strategy is certainly up for debate.

Then question the success of it, not the incentive behind it. Because that's certainly not up for debate.

.... at a time where assets costs the most to acquire and the players being available are usually expiring contracts/aging players. Not disputing that this is the strategy - but certainly one can argue its merits.

As soon as cap space opened up Shero tried to get a star winger in FA, but it didn't work.

This is Crosby's 9th season in the league. This is Malkin's 8th season in the league. Those four guys (and Kunitz is a bit of a stretch in terms of discussing top end wingers to play with our stars, if we're talking about the comparisons to linemates guys like Stamkos, Toews, Ovechkin, etc. have had during the same time) are the only players even remotely close to long-term top six options he's acquired over a 9 season span. Two of them (Iggy and Hossa) were rentals. So in fact, Neal is the only "elite" winger Shero's managed to acquire/sign who actually helped Sid/Geno over more than one season.

The reason I mention the rental thing is because it shows that every season, for about the first 60 or so games until the deadline, the priority isn't to start the season with top end wingers for Sid or Geno. Meaning they're playing with the Satans, Dupuis, Fedotenkos, etc. of the world for 2/3rds of the season, every season. Compare that to the priority he has put on defense, with the signings of guys like Martin, Michalek, Scuderi, etc., who were signed to multiple years and who were signed not as deadline rentals, but to be assets for the full 82 game schedule. You don't see a bit more priority put toward the defense than any sort of long term answer to the wing situation?

Fact is, this team's strength is Crosby and Malkin. And during their careers, Shero has acquired exactly two impact wingers during their tenure. And with regards to Crosby in particular, has played with exactly *one* impact winger his entire career as a Pen in Hossa, for about 2 months. Granted, perhaps that number could have been two if a certain coach actually played Sid with Iginla. But that's another topic altogether.

How many of those guys have another center taking up 8.7 mil per on a different line? And yet another center taking up 4 mil per on the 3rd line?

As soon as that arrangement ended, surprise surprise, Shero doesn't only try to acquire wingers via FA any more. In fact, the very first thing he did was try to acquire a winger for 7+ mil per!

But it didn't work out, so people here either forget it, or somehow interpret it as not being a priority.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

CAP.

Bull ****.

Shero has had enough cap space to address the wings in the past few years, he didn't.

2013: Signed Dupuis @ 3.75M and Scuds @ 3.375M. That's 7.125M not spent on a legit top 6 winger.
2012: Cleared ~7M cap space for ZP. When he didn't sign he could have used it on Semin.
2010: Z and Martin for 9M in Dmen.

That's moving the goalposts, TR. First it was "making wingers a priority", and now it's "acquiring 3+ wingers young enough to grow with the team who work out and stay long-term".

Never mind Shero dealt Michalek for peanuts so he could pursue Parise at 7+ mil last summer. But that didn't work out, so I guess that means it wasn't a priority?

Going into every season needing to get a rental on the wing is not "making getting a winger a priority".

Yes, he went all-in for ZP, great. He also totally ignored ever other winger, even it was clear he wasn't gonna get ZP. Then he didn't pursue Semin.

Not to mention that he had no need to give away Z for Zp, as he had enough space to sign ZP then move Z if needed.

Then question the success of it, not the incentive behind it. Because that's certainly not up for debate.

As soon as cap space opened up Shero tried to get a star winger in FA, but it didn't work.

How many of those guys have another center taking up 8.7 mil per on a different line? And yet another center taking up 4 mil per on the 3rd line?

As soon as that arrangement ended, surprise surprise, Shero doesn't only try to acquire wingers via FA any more. In fact, the very first thing he did was try to acquire a winger for 7+ mil per!

But it didn't work out, so people here either forget it, or somehow interpret it as not being a priority.

Going after 1 elite FA winger in the past 8 years doesn't prove what you're saying it proves.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bull ****.

Shero has had enough cap space to address the wings in the past few years, he didn't.

2013: Signed Dupuis @ 3.75M and Scuds @ 3.375M. That's 7.125M not spent on a legit top 6 winger.

Tell me about all the awesome top 6 wings available in 2013.

2012: Cleared ~7M cap space for ZP. When he didn't sign he could have used it on Semin.

Just because we could have doesn't mean we should have. It seems some people take "making wings a priority" as "throwing crazy money at whatever high-priced winger that's available", which would be stupid.

You talk about wanting to make moves that help us in the playoffs, then target the biggest playoff underachiever in the league.

2010: Z and Martin for 9M in Dmen.

Again, who ya got? I wanted Ray Whitney that year. Beyond that, I don't see a whole lot to regret.

 

[mpp9]

It's tough to debate this b/c no one really knows who we went after and who we didn't in many circumstances.

But Nick Foligno for Marc Methot sounded like something we could and should have been in on. Vermette was traded for a 2nd+5th+backup goalie earlier that season. Seto for a 2nd. Frolik for a 3rd+5th. Ray Whitney and Alex Semin in consecutive years.

Any of those guys are skill upgrades for Sid.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How many of those guys have another center taking up 8.7 mil per on a different line? And yet another center taking up 4 mil per on the 3rd line?

As soon as that arrangement ended, surprise surprise, Shero doesn't only try to acquire wingers via FA any more. In fact, the very first thing he did was try to acquire a winger for 7+ mil per!

But it didn't work out, so people here either forget it, or somehow interpret it as not being a priority.

So because Shero has made one big attempt at shoring up the long-term winger issue (Parise), that means it's a priority for him? I don't know, RRP. If it were a priority, you'd think he'd have Plan B, C, D, .... Z if Parise fell through. If it's a priority, you'd still be trying your best to bring someone in. You don't give up just because Parise is now a Wild and off the market.

That's sort of like saying, in a hypothetical example, the Pens need to shore up their goalie position and Shero approaches the Rangers about Lundqvist, are told he's not available, then don't even bother to look elsewhere.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Tell me about all the awesome top 6 wings available in 2013.



Just because we could have doesn't mean we should have. It seems some people take "making wings a priority" as "throwing crazy money at whatever high-priced winger that's available", which would be stupid.

You talk about wanting to make moves that help us in the playoffs, then target the biggest playoff underachiever in the league.



Again, who ya got? I wanted Ray Whitney that year. Beyond that, I don't see a whole lot to regret.

I've answered all of these questions for you in other threads and have spun your excuse wheel to poo poo them all. Surprise, surprise, you're playing dumb.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So because Shero has made one big attempt at shoring up the long-term winger issue (Parise), that means it's a priority for him? I don't know, RRP. If it were a priority, you'd think he'd have Plan B, C, D, .... Z if Parise fell through. If it's a priority, you'd still be trying your best to bring someone in. You don't give up just because Parise is now a Wild and off the market.

That's sort of like saying, in a hypothetical example, the Pens need to shore up their goalie position and Shero approaches the Rangers about Lundqvist, are told he's not available, then don't even bother to look elsewhere.

It hasn't been one big attempt though! Hossa, Kunitz, Neal, Parise, and Iginla. That's 5, and that's only counting wingers who are good for 55+ points a year.

Shero's big plan was to go for Parise, and his Plan B was to wait 'til the deadline, where he got what he and almost all of us at the time wanted. He didn't want Semin, and it's easy to see why.

I've answered all of these questions for you in other threads and have spun your excuse wheel to poo poo them all. Surprise, surprise, you're playing dumb.

Nobody has answered those questions satisfactorily. Everybody wants us to get star wingers, but virtually all the ones that have been available cost ridiculous money despite coming with huge warts.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Bull ****.

Shero has had enough cap space to address the wings in the past few years, he didn't.

2013: Signed Dupuis @ 3.75M and Scuds @ 3.375M. That's 7.125M not spent on a legit top 6 winger.
2012: Cleared ~7M cap space for ZP. When he didn't sign he could have used it on Semin.
2010: Z and Martin for 9M in Dmen.



Going into every season needing to get a rental on the wing is not "making getting a winger a priority".

Yes, he went all-in for ZP, great. He also totally ignored ever other winger, even it was clear he wasn't gonna get ZP. Then he didn't pursue Semin.

Not to mention that he had no need to give away Z for Zp, as he had enough space to sign ZP then move Z if needed.

Then question the success of it, not the incentive behind it. Because that's certainly not up for debate.





Going after 1 elite FA winger in the past 8 years doesn't prove what you're saying it proves.

Ok, here we go with this again. Exactly which of these deals should Shero have inked in the past few offseasons for a bigtime FA winger?

Alex Semin: 5 yrs x 7 mil
David Clarkson: 7 yrs x 5.25 mil
Ryane Clowe: 5 yrs x 4.85 mil
Valtteri Filppula: 5 yrs x 5 mil
Nathan Horton: 7 yrs x 5.3

Or how about Ryan Malone for 7 x 4.5.

It's quite arguable that we would have been royally screwed had we actually signed Hossa, Parise, or kept Staal on the contracts those guys ended up getting. Don't forget the 7 x 7 deal we reportedly offered Hossa, and also don't forget the guy is signed through 2021 x 5.25 cap hit, and has already fallen off considerably from his peak.

Now Parise does have 10 goals so far this year, mostly on the PP, but he's also making 7.53 mil, and he's making it until 2025.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

It hasn't been one big attempt though! Hossa, Kunitz, Neal, Parise, and Iginla. That's 5, and that's only counting wingers who are good for 55+ points a year.

Shero's big plan was to go for Parise, and his Plan B was to wait 'til the deadline, where he got what he and almost all of us at the time wanted. He didn't want Semin, and it's easy to see why.

He signed Neal as a RFA after trading for him.
He went after Hossa ans ZP and lost.
Kuni is a 3rd wheel so shouldn't me in the same list as the others.
He never attempted to sign Iggy.

That's one successful winger he's signed of the 3 he's gone after.

Nobody has answered those questions satisfactorily. Everybody wants us to get star wingers, but virtually all the ones that have been available cost ridiculous money despite coming with huge warts.

Just because you're not satisfied doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Some of the players mentioned were: Semin, Horton, Doan, PAP, Flash, Jagr, and Whitney.


You can't say that Shero is one of the best GMs in the league, and the best trading GM in the league and then pull the "he can't possibly fit a ~5-6M winger under the cap for Sid" card. If Shero was as good and as smart as you say he is, Sid wouldn't be in his 9th consecutive season starting the year w/o an elite winger.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

In fairness, Semin's deal that offseason was $7 million for one year. Which doesn't necessarily affect the argument that signing him would have been a potential cap issue this year (since obviously you'd hope he worked out and was retained), but that signing would have given the Penguins more short-term flexibility than the other guys.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It hasn't been one big attempt though! Hossa, Kunitz, Neal, Parise, and Iginla. That's 5, and that's only counting wingers who are good for 55+ points a year.

Shero's big plan was to go for Parise, and his Plan B was to wait 'til the deadline, where he got what he and almost all of us at the time wanted. He didn't want Semin, and it's easy to see why.

Not sure why you keep mentioning Kunitz and Iginla. Kunitz is already on Sid's wing, and has been a big part of the struggles that line has in the playoffs against tighter checking. He's a third wheel type, not the kind of guy I'm referring to (ie. a guy who can actually HELP Crosby by generating on his own). And Iginla is the definition of a rental player who was past his prime. Hardly the kind of "long term" solution I've been mentioning a few times now.

Which leaves Hossa, Neal, and the fantasy attempt at Parise. So in Shero's entire tenure as GM of the Pens, he's landed 2, and attempted to land 1 additional, top six winger who can actually be considered "all-star" caliber wingers. Three attempts at a long-term solution in Crosby's 9 seasons in the league. Again, that doesn't sound like much of a priority.

Remember, the whole point of this discussion is about upgrading the wing situation to HELP ALLEVIATE some of the pressure from Sid and Geno having to create everything for their lines. The common complaint is that it's easy to shut those two down (relatively speaking) in the playoffs because their wingers can't create on their own. So bringing up a guy like Kunitz all the time isn't exactly fitting the definition of our discussion.

And I'm not looking at just the superstar wingers, either. A guy like Lupul for the Leafs, for example, is capable of creating offensive opportunities on his own. And he's the type of guy who is, again, within the type of price range that can still fit with having two high paid centers. You'll probably say, "he's not available". And you're probably right. But my point is, Shero doesn't seem to try players like him. He was a question mark when Toronto picked him up from Anaheim. But Shero won't take that chance. Instead, he'll sign a Dupuis or another defensively sound, offensively questionable forward instead.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Ok, here we go with this again. Exactly which of these deals should Shero have inked in the past few offseasons for a bigtime FA winger?

Alex Semin: 5 yrs x 7 mil
David Clarkson: 7 yrs x 5.25 mil
Ryane Clowe: 5 yrs x 4.85 mil
Valtteri Filppula: 5 yrs x 5 mil
Nathan Horton: 7 yrs x 5.3

Or how about Ryan Malone for 7 x 4.5.

It's quite arguable that we would have been royally screwed had we actually signed Hossa, Parise, or kept Staal on the contracts those guys ended up getting. Don't forget the 7 x 7 deal we reportedly offered Hossa, and also don't forget the guy is signed through 2021 x 5.25 cap hit, and has already fallen off considerably from his peak.

Now Parise does have 10 goals so far this year, mostly on the PP, but he's also making 7.53 mil, and he's making it until 2025.

Semin signed as a FA for 1 year. The Canes re-signed him after they saw how well he did for them.

Horton at 5.3 is pretty good as is:
Parenteau @ 4M
Fleischmann @ 4.5M
Jagr @ 3.3M
Whitney @ 3M

Or how about the "best trading GM in the league" works some magic and trades one of his 11 NHL Dmen for a winger?

 

[Sutter16]

The Penguins have problems. They're way to "soff" to play against. If we don't acquire, a net front presence and a good young winger, we wont win a Cup. Steve Ott and Emerson Etem are the players we need here. Ott is a pest and I really want him on this team. Etem is a real good young winger with speed and hands. Niskanen, Despres, Dumoulin, Jeffrey, 2014, and 2015 1sts and 2nds and probably more assets, are available. Shero has to realize this. A player like Ott is a huge, huge need for this team. You're not winning the Stanley Cup with Chuck freaking Kobasew playing a regular basis. I want Botterill to stay here, but if he gets the GM job in Buffalo, hopefully that increases the chances off an Ott deal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He signed Neal as a RFA after trading for him.
He went after Hossa ans ZP and lost.
Kuni is a 3rd wheel so shouldn't me in the same list as the others.
He never attempted to sign Iggy.

That's one successful winger he's signed of the 3 he's gone after.

Do you forget what you're arguing about halfway through, or do you consciously change the subject when it isn't going your way?

We're talking about Shero making scoring wings a priority.

Whether he signed Parise or Hossa is immaterial. He went after both with everything he had...he doesn't make players' decisions for them.

Just because you're not satisfied doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Some of the players mentioned were: Semin, Horton, Doan, PAP, Flash, Jagr, and Whitney.

Other than Semin, I really don't see how you can qualify these guys as - at best - more than marginal upgrades to Kunitz, who you qualified earlier as a 3rd wheel.

You can't say that Shero is one of the best GMs in the league, and the best trading GM in the league and then pull the "he can't possibly fit a ~5-6M winger under the cap for Sid" card. If Shero was as good and as smart as you say he is, Sid wouldn't be in his 9th consecutive season starting the year w/o an elite winger.

Some years, like the last couple, Shero could have fit a 5-6 mil per winger under the cap (which is why he went after Parise), but the guys available for that price weren't worth it.

In fairness, Semin's deal that offseason was $7 million for one year. Which doesn't necessarily affect the argument that signing him would have been a potential cap issue this year (since obviously you'd hope he worked out and was retained), but that signing would have given the Penguins more short-term flexibility than the other guys.

The argument against Semin is that he has been a dog in the playoffs, and the moves we make are geared towards success in the playoffs.

Not sure why you keep mentioning Kunitz and Iginla. Kunitz is already on Sid's wing, and has been a big part of the struggles that line has in the playoffs against tighter checking. He's a third wheel type, not the kind of guy I'm referring to (ie. a guy who can actually HELP Crosby by generating on his own). And Iginla is the definition of a rental player who was past his prime. Hardly the kind of "long term" solution I've been mentioning a few times now.

Because they represented big upgrades to what we had, which show that upgrading the wing was a priority.

If they don't qualify because they were "3rd wheels" or "past their prime", what do you think of Rags' suggestions of the likes of Parenteau, Jagr, Whitney, etc? What UFA wingers are good enough to meet your criteria that we should have signed?

And I'm not looking at just the superstar wingers, either. A guy like Lupul for the Leafs, for example, is capable of creating offensive opportunities on his own. And he's the type of guy who is, again, within the type of price range that can still fit with having two high paid centers. You'll probably say, "he's not available". And you're probably right. But my point is, Shero doesn't seem to try players like him. He was a question mark when Toronto picked him up from Anaheim. But Shero won't take that chance. Instead, he'll sign a Dupuis or another defensively sound, offensively questionable forward instead.

The thing about question marks like Lupul is that they usually don't work out, but they still come with a 4.25 mil price tag. A crap team like Toronto was can afford to throw expensive **** at a wall to see what sticks. We can't.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because they represented big upgrades to what we had, which show that upgrading the wing was a priority.

If they don't qualify because they were "3rd wheels" or "past their prime", what do you think of Rags' suggestions of the likes of Parenteau, Jagr, Whitney, etc? What UFA wingers are good enough to meet your criteria that we should have signed?

In regards to the names you mentioned, while I'm not necessarily saying they're the guys at the top of my list, they certainly are more the "type" of winger Shero should be targeting. Those guys are more capable of creating chances on their own than the wingers we have.

Are they all-stars? Are they going to make the Pens' top six "perfect"? Of course not. However, they'd be a step in the right direction since their games would allow them to take some of the pressure off of Sid and Geno from basically having to create every single offensive chance for their lines.

The thing about question marks like Lupul is that they usually don't work out, but they still come with a 4.25 mil price tag. A crap team like Toronto was can afford to throw expensive **** at a wall to see what sticks. We can't.

So instead it's better to pay Dupuis $3.75 million all because you know what you've got, even if you know it's a limited amount? I'm not saying every single signing should be some kind of wild card signing boom or bust player, but a couple sprinkled in here and then? I definitely think Shero should take some chances on a Lupul type. Sometimes they end up like Eric Fehr, sometimes they end up like Lupul. Either way, at least you're attempting to add some creativity to your forward group instead of playing it safe with the wingers Shero has collected.

 

[Tender Rip]

That's moving the goalposts, TR. First it was "making wingers a priority", and now it's "acquiring 3+ wingers young enough to grow with the team who work out and stay long-term".

I am not the one you have been having a long argument about this with. I am jumping in to point out that every single one of the names you mention are deadline or in-season acquisitions.
At a certain point I don't care about the excuses of who was available in free agency - you can also make hockey trades, and the fact remains that if we use Crosby's first year as the cut off point, the only wingers who have been acquired in free agency who have made a sustainably acceptable contribution to the top 6 are Recchi (actually not free agency, just early in the season) in year one and later there was Petr Sykora. Since 2005.

Never mind Shero dealt Michalek for peanuts so he could pursue Parise at 7+ mil last summer. But that didn't work out, so I guess that means it wasn't a priority?

Forget the fact that I was one of the few here who thought (and still believe) Parise was NOT the player we should have be targeting, giving away Michalek for peanuts to be nice or whatever is not something you should praise Shero for when you also talk about our lack of assets to acquire upgrades. It merely puts the onus on him to get something else worked out, and when he did not, it was evidently a major mistake as Michalek should obviously be valuable enough to bring a good prospect back - AT LEAST.

Then question the success of it, not the incentive behind it. Because that's certainly not up for debate.

I am not questioning the incentive. Deadline moves every year clearly states that Shero sees the necessity. I am saying that a GM is measured on his actions, and after this amount of time having passed with acceptance of the same problems again and again and again, I don't care that he wants to do right if what he does isn't working.
I also think it is ridiculous that we have Sid and Geno and the first priority each season is not to make sure that we have the assets that allow them to dominate, each year having to scramble and hope that there will be late 2009 magic.

Of course, to me Bylsma's incompetence is the biggest problem we have, as he does not even attempt to rectify problems that are long standing and brutally evident. But Shero enables him 100% and for that I am getting to the point where I am blaming Shero also.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Do you forget what you're arguing about halfway through, or do you consciously change the subject when it isn't going your way?

We're talking about Shero making scoring wings a priority.

Whether he signed Parise or Hossa is immaterial. He went after both with everything he had...he doesn't make players' decisions for them.

And I'm showing you that only going after 3 top flght wingers doesn't mean he makes wingers a priority.

Your "argument" doesn't prove what you think it proves, lol.

Other than Semin, I really don't see how you can qualify these guys as - at best - more than marginal upgrades to Kunitz, who you qualified earlier as a 3rd wheel.

Kunitz is a 3rd wheel. And those guys are all big upgraded over Duper, who you conveniently didn't include in your post.

Some years, like the last couple, Shero could have fit a 5-6 mil per winger under the cap (which is why he went after Parise), but the guys available for that price weren't worth it.

The argument against Semin is that he has been a dog in the playoffs, and the moves we make are geared towards success in the playoffs.

Wrong. Just because you don't like Semin doesn't mean not signing him wasn't a mistake.

Because they represented big upgrades to what we had, which show that upgrading the wing was a priority.

If they don't qualify because they were "3rd wheels" or "past their prime", what do you think of Rags' suggestions of the likes of Parenteau, Jagr, Whitney, etc? What UFA wingers are good enough to meet your criteria that we should have signed?

Keep spinning that excuse wheel. And lol at including PAP, who is prolly the best fit on that list.

The thing about question marks like Lupul is that they usually don't work out, but they still come with a 4.25 mil price tag. A crap team like Toronto was can afford to throw expensive **** at a wall to see what sticks. We can't.

Right. We can afford to sign the crap we know we have and never take a chance. It's worked out so well lately!!!!

 

[#66]

Ok, here we go with this again. Exactly which of these deals should Shero have inked in the past few offseasons for a bigtime FA winger?

Alex Semin: 5 yrs x 7 mil
David Clarkson: 7 yrs x 5.25 mil
Ryane Clowe: 5 yrs x 4.85 mil
Valtteri Filppula: 5 yrs x 5 mil
Nathan Horton: 7 yrs x 5.3

Or how about Ryan Malone for 7 x 4.5.

It's quite arguable that we would have been royally screwed had we actually signed Hossa, Parise, or kept Staal on the contracts those guys ended up getting. Don't forget the 7 x 7 deal we reportedly offered Hossa, and also don't forget the guy is signed through 2021 x 5.25 cap hit, and has already fallen off considerably from his peak.

Now Parise does have 10 goals so far this year, mostly on the PP, but he's also making 7.53 mil, and he's making it until 2025.

That's why you draft players like Tatar and Silfverberg and have a well rounded prospects group.