18/19 MGMT thread VIII

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xtra

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Fair question...based on his pre TDL 2017 work,I would have said he was a bottom 5 ......post TDL 2017..average.

Given the mandate and constraints at the time..(2014)..,I don't think any GM that would have been hired by the Canucks would have come out smelling like roses.

So his overall work bottom 5 for 2/3 of his tenure + average for 1/3 means he’s average?
 

Hit the post

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Hiding under WTG's bed...
So because the majority of posters here no longer think Jim Benning is the worst GM in the league, but only the 2-5th worst GM in the league that's something to hang your hat on? right.
Chiapet was fired so until some owner is dumb enough to let him be a GM again (or hire someone as terrible to be the new GM of the Oilers), Benning automatically goes down in the GM rankings from my POV.

CDC. They still think Guds is a top 4 D. Jeebus, as bad as GM as Benning is, he’s at least a better GM than Guds is a NHL defenseman.
 

Phenomenon13

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Chiapet was fired so until some owner is dumb enough to let him be a GM again (or hire someone as terrible to be the new GM of the Oilers), Benning automatically goes down in the GM rankings from my POV.

CDC. They still think Guds is a top 4 D. Jeebus, as bad as GM as Benning is, he’s at least a better GM than Guds is a NHL defenseman.


You can't be serious lol. Gudbranson is not a top four guy in any capacity. I don't even believe Reddit sees him as a top four guy. Can I have a link?
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
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You can't be serious lol. Gudbranson is not a top four guy in any capacity. I don't even believe Reddit sees him as a top four guy. Can I have a link?
I’m afraid you’ll have to waste a bunch of your time reading that board (heh, I got no life so I enjoy getting a chuckle out of lurking there) but it’s tough not to get that impression. (eg., Edler manages to vary his sorry butt for a short period of time and suddenly he’s penciled in our top 4).

Even posting a Gudbranson trade proposal would elicit a bunch of “we can’t afford to lose his toughness,etc”. I made a pretty minor negative comment about him (back when that board let people give out negative rep votes) on there and got a ton of negative reps lol.
 

Bleach Clean

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But your vote on average was based only on his post 2017 deadline work because as you mentioned he screwed up before then correct?


I forgot to add this earlier, so I will add it here:

PoM's rationale has three arbitrary and subjective cut-off points:

1. He imposes an ownership mandate on Benning and Linden in 2014, while not acknowledging the possibility of complete alignment between all three parties.

2. He dislikes Benning's work pre-2017 TDL, and likes his work post-2017 TDL. This constitutes not liking 2.5 years of Benning's 5.5 year tenure.

3. Anything pre-extention in 2018 is absolved because of the extension, despite the extension only being 2 years (3rd year is a club option)...


Effectively, PoM is absolving Benning's responsibility pre-2017 TDL despite not liking his work over that same span. That's almost half his tenure washed away because of an assumed directive from Aquilini that was imposed upon Benning. Nothing about Benning's execution of that directive and nothing about Benning being aligned with that directive.

So that's 2.5 years to the negative. Now let's look at the remaining 3 years: Prior to this year, the Canucks have been the worst team over a 3 year span. This poor win ratio window straddles the 2017 deadline. 1.5 years came before said TDL, an 1.5 years came after. In other words, PoM is including 1.5 years of the worst hockey into his 3 year positive evaluation of Benning. Logical?

Then follows the 2017 FA season, the 2018 deadline and the 2018 offseason:

2017 FA - Benning signs Nilsson, Vanek, Gagner as his main acquisitions. All but Vanek flopped.

2018 TDL - Media and fans panned the Vanek deal and were OK with the Leipsic trade.

2018 FA - Signing Beagle, Roussel and Schaller was criticized.

Trades, signings, and team win percentage over this time span have been below par.

In summary, PoM is using 60% of this season, 50 games, and the Pettersson draft to judge Benning to be average overall. He does this knowing that for at least 1.5 years of the time that he liked Benning's work, the team was the worst in the NHL. During this same preferred time period, Benning's work in 2017 + 2018 FA periods and the 2018 TDL was largely panned.

This is the logic behind his opinion here.
 
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pgj98m3

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They certainly do...a few big victories as well...the addition of EP to the team has completely changed the landscape..There's no going back now.
Thanks Captain Obvious...we can now sail into Oilers territory wasting high end talent ELC’s under the glorious
Leader.
 
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bbud

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Much of the situation Vancouver was in during the 2013-14 season was a result of a contending team aging and burning out, as can be seen with a number of teams over the years and the current examples being LA and Chicago. This is the point where it's time to shift gears, but Gillis had his legs cut out from him by ownership (though he managed to slip in Horvat) before he could have the opportunity. Typically GM's that have avoided this cycle were with the team for a much longer time, like David Poile in Nashville.

So the problem here is a fix was needed but as Gillis was starting he was sacked and the new guy Jim Benning took a sledge hammer to what he was doing making it impossible to know what could have been. It's hard to line up a perfect comparison because there's so many shifting variables but a good one here would be he post-Iginla Flames.

I think Gillis waited too long let loyalty to players weigh in too much in the end if he had used good players as trade bait for younger prospects and picks earlier he may still be here .
I agree about shifting variables and results but by time Gillis was fired it was too late way too many loyal soldiers aging out a disgruntled Kesler and literally nothing good enough in prospect list too close to help.
I don't solely blame Gillis alone for lack of prospects that had been successive management groups doing but it should have been far more concerning from start.
Change was coming been a roller coaster lol but today a team thàt works competes is younger and growing still needs more but some good pieces to build on and that is good what really matters are the next moves need to really be done well to take next step Bennings real make or break.
 

PuckMunchkin

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I think Gillis waited too long let loyalty to players weigh in too much in the end if he had used good players as trade bait for younger prospects and picks earlier he may still be here .
I agree about shifting variables and results but by time Gillis was fired it was too late way too many loyal soldiers aging out a disgruntled Kesler and literally nothing good enough in prospect list too close to help.
I don't solely blame Gillis alone for lack of prospects that had been successive management groups doing but it should have been far more concerning from start.
Change was coming been a roller coaster lol but today a team thàt works competes is younger and growing still needs more but some good pieces to build on and that is good what really matters are the next moves need to really be done well to take next step Bennings real make or break.

Is your memory playing tricks on you?

Here is a Gillis team timeline:

2010-11 lost in the finals.
2011-12 won the presidents trophy, lost in Conference QF:s
2012-13 won the division, lost in Conference QF:s
2013-14 did not make the playoffs and got fired

If he was late.. it was like by few months.

If he needs to be blamed for something its for not revamping the draft staff sooner.
 

member 290103

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LOL, Jim Benning is good because he has added some young players that are good. Um....isn't that the end result of poor finishes for a long stretch? Did anyone laud Steve Tambellini's genius GM skills for adding good young players like Nugent-Hopkins and Taylor Hall? I mean, wow....what a brilliant hockey mind he must be!
 

RandV

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Is your memory playing tricks on you?

Here is a Gillis team timeline:

2010-11 lost in the finals.
2011-12 won the presidents trophy, lost in Conference QF:s
2012-13 won the division, lost in Conference QF:s
2013-14 did not make the playoffs and got fired

If he was late.. it was like by few months.

If he needs to be blamed for something its for not revamping the draft staff sooner.

Yes this. NHL GM's are extremely conservative at holding on when it's better to move on, so Gillis wanting to start the rebuild after the 2013 loss (don't forget this is what he wanted but was blocked by Aquilini) was actually really progressive and showed a lot of forward thinking.
 
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bbud

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Is your memory playing tricks on you?

Here is a Gillis team timeline:

2010-11 lost in the finals.
2011-12 won the presidents trophy, lost in Conference QF:s
2012-13 won the division, lost in Conference QF:s
2013-14 did not make the playoffs and got fired

If he was late.. it was like by few months.

If he needs to be blamed for something its for not revamping the draft staff sooner.

I know what he did it is also important to note what he didn't do I liked him but reality is very few meaningful prospects lack of trades to get you those picks when some players could have been moved out and not core guys and that is the difference in both Chicago and LA they made moves developed picks Gillis had a one and done core and came oh so close, close isn't a cup .
Exactly my post says consecutive management did not draft well enough it should have been one of his very first concerns it wasn't.
 

bbud

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Yes this. NHL GM's are extremely conservative at holding on when it's better to move on, so Gillis wanting to start the rebuild after the 2013 loss (don't forget this is what he wanted but was blocked by Aquilini) was actually really progressive and showed a lot of forward thinking.

Gillis just should have told owners it's a hockey trade to keep us competitive and done what was needed he would have been far better off .
 

Bleach Clean

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So the question should be why is a poster arguing in bad faith allowed to continue posting here?

You mean allowed to post bad opinions? Because they are still just opinions. So long as they don't violate site rules, they're all fair game.

Imagine if HF cracked down on illogical opinions the way CDC cracks down on negativity/criticism? It would be a board that pushes you towards a thought rather than entertaining all thoughts. That's a key difference in what makes HF a superior environment IMO. Even bad opinions can exist here. Great opinions exist here too. Positive, negative, or otherwise. That's not true of other environments.

In the end, it's still your choice to engage or move on. Or, its your choice to dismantle it. The mere fact that you have that choice is important.
 

racerjoe

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Jun 3, 2012
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You mean allowed to post bad opinions? Because they are still just opinions. So long as they don't violate site rules, they're all fair game.

Imagine if HF cracked down on illogical opinions the way CDC cracks down on negativity/criticism? It would be a board that pushes you towards a thought rather than entertaining all thoughts. That's a key difference in what makes HF a superior environment IMO. Even bad opinions can exist here. Great opinions exist here too. Positive, negative, or otherwise. That's not true of other environments.

In the end, it's still your choice to engage or move on. Or, its your choice to dismantle it. The mere fact that you have that choice is important.


I don’t want to derail the thread too much here so only post here on this topic from me, but with this topic, I don’t mind someone voicing their opinion even if it is against mine. However when the engage in a debate, and are not just dishonest in their arguments, but also suddenly posting a lot, is this not spamming?

This isn’t to be critical so much of this current poaster, as I think a few others are much worse at this, who for obvious reasons I won’t mention.
 

Bleach Clean

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I don’t want to derail the thread too much here so only post here on this topic from me, but with this topic, I don’t mind someone voicing their opinion even if it is against mine. However when the engage in a debate, and are not just dishonest in their arguments, but also suddenly posting a lot, is this not spamming?

This isn’t to be critical so much of this current poaster, as I think a few others are much worse at this, who for obvious reasons I won’t mention.


If you feel that any site rule is broken, report the post and the team of mods will deal with it.

All I will say on the topic.
 
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Hodgy

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Feb 23, 2012
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This year there has been progress..The general consensus said we had no scoring at the beginning of the year..Its been a lot of fun watching watching this new young core of players develop...Just because the point totals are close to the last few years, does not tell the whole story (we're not even supposed to be anywhere near a playoff spot)...This year has already been a win-win for ownership and management (playoffs or not).

Benning brought us Elias Pettersson,Brock Boeser,and Quinn Hughes (?)...I think he deserves an opportunity to see his picks through...and get a crack at assembling an elite team.

Again,next year will be crucial as to whether JB can take this team to the next level

Even if it is acknowledged that the Canucks have progressed this year, should Jim Benning be credited with that progress? You have to look at reasonable baselines. The NHL rewards terrible teams with high draft picks. Moreover, the system creates a demand for terrible teams to unload expiring contract for picks. The system literally results in progress for terrible teams. So why are we crediting Jim Benning with this progress? How has he out performed the reasonable baseline?

terrible teams can trade expiring contracts for picks. The system

I had no idea that you get booted off of Reddit..I thought that you just got downvoted or something like that.

Probably the best way to determine the current temperature of the team is the mainstream media...especially the print media..They will savage the team if its called for...

Television all seem to be pro Canuck management...Brian Burke,Elliott Friedman,Iain McIntyre etc

Who cares what the media, or Reddit or Canucks.com thinks? Who even cares what HF thinks? If you can't make a cogent argument that Benning is an average GM, then he isn't. You reference the draft picks he has made as reasons why he isn't a terrible GM (even going has far as to cite a player that was drafted less than a year ago and hasn't even play an NHL game...), but yet even this fails to take into consideration any baseline - see Melvin's potato test.
 

Peter10

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Also, no one expected this team to be a contender after 4 years. But we expected that the GM would actually rebuild. Instead, he actively tried to push for the playoffs but instead built the worst team in the NHL over the last 3.5 years. Why do you ignore this fact? Oh right, because you have to ignore facts in order to come out with your pro-Benning nonsense.

It's not possible to think that management is guiding the team in the right direction if you actually look at the facts.

Jimbo did

 

tantalum

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Linden is a ****ing idiot. The team is not there to appease the Sedins. That was the major holdback on a rebuild in Lindens eyes...they could not look the Sedins in the face and explain to them they needed to start over.

Linden should have gone with a rebuild upon taking over. His fault.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not shedding tears for Linden. You are 100% correct. But let's also not make a distinction between linden, Benning and Aquilini on that front...they all bought into the same failed plan. But Linden "got it" at the end. I don't believe Benning and Aquilini do. They believe that they have a 2 or 3 shiny toys and are ready to go. They aren't. In the end Linden was counselling a bit more patience and he was forced out because of it. In the end Linden pushed for the correct approach. Realistically, all of Linden, Benning and Weisbrod should have been fired and the other brothers should have tied Frank up and stuffed him in a closet.
 

Jyrki21

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Supporting a guy because (1) a clearly confused owner gave him an extension in spite of objective results (and probably only because Linden ironically forced him to before getting backstabbed himself), and (2) because a bunch of fans like him, the vast majority of which aren't paying much attention or have shown no capacity to find a reference point to measure performance (we must be the only team drafting guys who looked good in junior!), but simply want to cheer on the team...?

Solid.

You know those bumper stickers that say "X billion [religious group members] can't be wrong?" I'm not a member of their group, and I'm pretty sure they're wrong, but either way their reasoning is definitely wrong.
 

Ainec

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to florida
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to pittsburgh
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to vancouver
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to contender
brassard




jim elmer
 
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