18/19 MGMT thread VIII

[I in the Eye]

Also, with the Blake Price tweet about the team having roughly the same points rate to the 50 game mark in each of the last 4 years, it seems awfully disingenuous to claim that VAN’s raw performance is what signifies the turn of events here, and not the performance of the teams around them.

I agree. Next year, if the Canucks have the same amount of points at this point in the season (as they have the last few years), but are well out of a playoff spot because of market correction from the teams around them, would that be seen as a step backwards? I don't think it would. There is no steps backward, there are only steps forward or the call for patience. Give the Canucks the exact same amount of points next year, while being clearly out of the playoffs, and it would be need more patience. Give the Canucks the exact same amount of points next year, while being in a playoff spot, and it will be progress is being made.

That this has so far been a step forward year is an illusion. But only those who have looked at and compared the Canucks record the last few years will see that. This is a team that is tailor-made for casual fans. Just enjoy the playoff race without thinking too much about any of the details. Given we're living in a matrix, it's probably better just to enjoy the illusion of happiness, when in reality, we're chained to a machine that is feeding aliens with our shit and piss. In terms of being happy and minimizing pain, probably best to not think about it.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Do you mean defensive minutes? I don't read the athletic, but that kid they call the boy wizard apparently has an article out point to the factHorvat is already under extreme defensive usage. You always talk about watching the games, but you see it, they match Bo up with McDavid, they match him up with the best lines every night.

Horvat has the toughest deployment in the NHL. Yet somehow things would be worse and Horvat would be exclusively our 4C if they didn't overpay for Beagle.

Facts, logic, reality. None of those things matter to people who are pro-Benning it seems.

 

[Askel]

Listen ,man..the last time I exchanged posts with you..You said that Beagle was nothing but a 4th line scrub,and would make no difference to the lineup when he returned..I explicitly told you that was not the case...You obviously did not understand the hard workhorse defensive minutes that Horvat had to play when Sutter and Beagle were out (the losing streak)..With the the return of Beagle,Horvat gets more top 6 minutes, we start winning again...Voila.....You speak like your words are the gospel,..but they're clueless..really they are.

No Beagle made no difference coming back to line up. 4th line centers rarely do, thats why they are on the 4th line. You claimed our PK sucked because of Beagle being injured. I said Sutter being injured was the big problem.

Guess what both guys are back and the PK still sucks.

Your Horvat fantasy is BS. He did not get more top 6 minutes until Sutter came back.

If anyone is proving to be clueless here its you, as always.

 

[Askel]

The one benefit of having veterans in the traditional bottom six is not having to throw your rookies to the wolves in key defensive matchups. The Canucks do not have NHL depth in Utica who can assume those positions for the length of an NHL season. They are still developing and hopefully can turn into established pros in the next couple years. As much as I am sure the team would like to have a non-traditional 3rd line, they just don't have the horses right now.

Yes, Roussel, Beagle, Sutter and Eriksson are overpaid, however, I don't think the situation from a cap perspective is as dire as you might make it out to be. Each have modified NTCs starting next season that allow the team greater flexibility in making deals. This would include looking to sign or trade for a RHD - maybe not Karlsson - or acquire a Top6 winger to play with Horvat.

Sutter: '19-20 through contract expiration in '21-22: 15 team no-trade list;
Eriksson: '20-21 through contract expiration in '21-22: 15 team no-trade list Further, the bulk of his money has been paid through signing bonuses at the end of this season ($23M of $36M value). After next season, he will be even easier to move along if the team has the option, as he would only be owed $8M for the remaining two years; even possible for as little as $5M if the Canucks trade him after his signing bonus registers in the summer of 2021.
Roussel: '18-19 15 team NTC, '19-21 8 team NTC, '21-22 5 team NTC
Beagle: '18-20 15 team NTC, '20-22 5 team NTC

I think given Gaudette's performance in Utica this season (1.o PPG; 5G, 6A in 11 games), along with his showing this season with the big club, it makes Sutter redundant. This is further exemplified by the deployments of Beagle and Horvat (in Sutter's absence), who tend to take the matchups in the d-zone. I think the club might move along from Sutter - possibly this trade deadline, but definitively in the offseason. It doesn't hurt the team right now to have Sutter from a salary perspective, and it doesn't hurt Gaudette to play top minutes in Utica either.

As far as the D goes, it sounds like Edler will stay (provided that the term and money are reasonable to him as a UFA). However, even with the approach of Q. Hughes, I am confident the management team knows that they can't run the same pairings out again. I believe Gudbranson will also be moved by the draft - there are still hockey men out there that believe in pedigree and snarl. Pouliot will be let go; creating competition at training camp for the last LHD spot and giving Juolevi another chance to make the opening lineup. Prior to his injury, he was placed in key situations on the top pairing with Chatfield;

Even if Sutter, Beagle, Roussel and Eriksson doesn't have full trade protection in 2 years doesn't mean that they are tradeable. Im tired of watching overpaid, useless bums.
My point is that it was useless to sign Beagle when you had Sutter. it would have been better to reserve that role for Gaudette, who could have done a fine job, or get a cheap veteran on a one year deal who isn't signed when we need to re-sign Pettersson.

And my point about the cap situation was that without the 20 million spend on bad players the Canucks could have gone after 2 elite players. Players like Stone & Karlsson. Now we have to settle for more mediocre players because our bottom line is making at least 10 million.

I watched Juolevi in Utica, he was not defending well. He scored some points on PP, but was getting abused physically, and still seems to be scared . Until he improves this aspects of his game he is not a player that can play on a good team.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I’m Actually trying to understand your logic because I know we are never going to agree on the outcome of the Arguements.

You keep making absurd statements
He hasn’t crapped the bed hence he was extended - false as gms who have crapped the bed have been extended

Your logic is what intrigues me, but it seems like I figured it out in that you want to assess benning based on only what he’s done post extension because you believe that aqua giving him the extension absolves him of his past mistakes.

You seem to ignore the chatter that’s out there that no one else wanted to work under aqua due to his interference as a possible reason benning got the extension not that he’s done a good job. Or the fact that aqua wanted to fire benning but linden had to go and save him from the firing line,

So you're saying that Benning got the extension because no one else wanted to work under FA..?...or that FA wanted to fire Benning,but Linden saved him..?.....and then Linden gets fired?

Doesn't the fact that Benning got extended tell you that certain mistakes (Eriksson) were considered/absolved by ownership prior to his extension..?....My logic tells me that ownership/Linden were involved in the mandate to 'compete on the fly',and now JB has been given an opportunity (2-3 years) to show what he can do in a rebuild.

Since the 2017 TDL,I've mostly liked all of the moves that Benning has done

 

[tantalum]

Ownership, Linden and Benning were all in agreement with compete on the fly philosophy or rather the "retool". Linden saw the light far too late and realized the well the kept on going to wasn't working. That's why he got fired because he wanted to truly rebuild while Benning/Weisbrod were still on board with accelerating everything. Unless you want to ignore almost every single bit of reporting on the whole Linden situation.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Ownership, Linden and Benning were all in agreement with compete on the fly philosophy or rather the "retool". Linden saw the light far too late and realized the well the kept on going to wasn't working. That's why he got fired because he wanted to truly rebuild while Benning/Weisbrod were still on board with accelerating everything. Unless you want to ignore almost every single bit of reporting on the whole Linden situation.

That sounds about right..from what little we know why Linden left.(it does not necessarily mean that Linden was right).Why was JB given an extension ?..in your opinion.

 

[y2kcanucks]

That sounds about right..from what little we know why Linden left.(it does not necessarily mean that Linden was right).Why was JB given an extension ?..in your opinion.

He was given an extension because Linden persuaded ownership to give him that extension. He certainly didn't deserve it. It also isn't the first time a bad GM has been kept around.

Why was Kevin Lowe promoted to President of Hockey Operations in 2009 after the Oilers began their slide? Why has he remained with that organization for so long? Or would you argue that Lowe and MacTavish have done a good job in Edmonton too because they've stuck around?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

He was given an extension because Linden persuaded ownership to give him that extension. He certainly didn't deserve it. It also isn't the first time a bad GM has been kept around.

Why was Kevin Lowe promoted to President of Hockey Operations in 2009 after the Oilers began their slide? Why has he remained with that organization for so long? Or would you argue that Lowe and MacTavish have done a good job in Edmonton too because they've stuck around?

It seemed to me at the time (a year ago), that most fans supported FA rehiring JB...since that time ,it seems that FA and JB are in complete alignment with their comments on the team going forward.

The fact that JB only got a 2-3 year deal gives the ownership an out if they are unhappy...but so far owner and GM have to be very pleased the way things have shaped up.

 

[Shattered Dreams]

No Beagle made no difference coming back to line up. 4th line centers rarely do, thats why they are on the 4th line. You claimed our PK sucked because of Beagle being injured. I said Sutter being injured was the big problem.

Guess what both guys are back and the PK still sucks.

Your Horvat fantasy is BS. He did not get more top 6 minutes until Sutter came back.

If anyone is proving to be clueless here its you, as always.

To add to that, the PK also improved when Schaller and Granlund were pulled off. Things improved when Eriksson and Roussel had more looks killing penalties. It also helps that Stecher got more time as well (he was the team's best penalty killer last year).

 

[xtra]

So you're saying that Benning got the extension because no one else wanted to work under FA..?...or that FA wanted to fire Benning,but Linden saved him..?.....and then Linden gets fired?

Doesn't the fact that Benning got extended tell you that certain mistakes (Eriksson) were considered/absolved by ownership prior to his extension..?....My logic tells me that ownership/Linden were involved in the mandate to 'compete on the fly',and now JB has been given an opportunity (2-3 years) to show what he can do in a rebuild.

Do you think ( and think for yourself) that lindens opinion changed on what the organization needed to do? I will agree that up to the deadline they were in the compete and go for the playoffs mindframe.

I believe that benning and aqua are both of the playoff mindframe now. And that linden flipped his mind between the deadline and the draft to a full rebuild.

The fact that prior mistakes were absolved by ownership doesn’t mean he’s done a good job that’s just faulty logic

I do believe there is a reluctance to work with aqua out there from the reports about Lombardi ( other than him also being tied to the flyers)

 

[member 290103]

Ownership, Linden and Benning were all in agreement with compete on the fly philosophy or rather the "retool". Linden saw the light far too late and realized the well the kept on going to wasn't working. That's why he got fired because he wanted to truly rebuild while Benning/Weisbrod were still on board with accelerating everything. Unless you want to ignore almost every single bit of reporting on the whole Linden situation.

Linden is a f***ing idiot. The team is not there to appease the Sedins. That was the major holdback on a rebuild in Lindens eyes...they could not look the Sedins in the face and explain to them they needed to start over.

Linden should have gone with a rebuild upon taking over. His fault.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It seemed to me at the time (a year ago), that most fans supported FA rehiring JB...since that time ,it seems that FA and JB are in complete alignment with their comments on the team going forward.

The fact that JB only got a 2-3 year deal gives the ownership an out if they are unhappy...but so far owner and GM have to be very pleased the way things have shaped up.

What???

Does Jim Benning deserve a contract extension

I get you have to make things up to support your opinion because the facts definitely don't help you there, but at least come up with something that's not so blatantly wrong.

 

[Svencouver]

What???

Does Jim Benning deserve a contract extension

I get you have to make things up to support your opinion because the facts definitely don't help you there, but at least come up with something that's not so blatantly wrong.

HFcanucks is not representative of most of the fanbase. Not even most of the online fanbase - it is by far the most pessimistic community in terms of evaluating management. Using it as a sample isn't necessarily indicative of whether or not PoM's assertion that people were more or less content with JB's re-signing was accurate.

 

[y2kcanucks]

HFcanucks is not representative of most of the fanbase. Not even most of the online fanbase - it is by far the most pessimistic community in terms of evaluating management. Using it as a sample isn't necessarily indicative of whether or not PoM's assertion that people were more or less content with JB's re-signing was accurate.

There is a vocal minority who like to ignore facts and logic and have screamed their support for Benning, but I don't believe that's the majority of the fanbase. Though if it is, then I guess our fanbase really isn't as smart as I had hoped.

 

[Jimbo57]

There is a vocal minority who like to ignore facts and logic and have screamed their support for Benning, but I don't believe that's the majority of the fanbase. Though if it is, then I guess our fanbase really isn't as smart as I had hoped.

I think most of the fanbase, outside of this [MOD], is sophisticated enough to realize that no GM could have turned this into a contender in 4 years. 2015 Old core got 101 pts....going from that to replacing the core to contender again in the time frame the short sighted myopic "satisfy me now" individuals who dominate this particular forum expect is not realistic.

Also, why do you try and split the fan bases into pro-Benning and anti-Benning camps. There are plenty of people that can be critical of some moves and praise other moves management has made. Its possible to think that management has made some mistakes and is generally guiding the team in the right direction without being in either camp. Just because you want the team to fail to fulfill your fantasy and justify the tens of thousands of hours you spend here regurgitating the same tired tripe doesnt mean everything is black and white.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What???

Does Jim Benning deserve a contract extension

I get you have to make things up to support your opinion because the facts definitely don't help you there, but at least come up with something that's not so blatantly wrong.

Wow, are you a comedian now?... you post an HFvan poll as evidence which is over a year old (before the extension)...you may as well have just given me a link to the tank thread.

Whats interesting is that the amount of HFVan posters who think that JB is the worst GM is now at 25%. (taken in last weeks poll)....and this on site that is predominately longtime negative anti-managements.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

There is a vocal minority who like to ignore facts and logic and have screamed their support for Benning, but I don't believe that's the majority of the fanbase. Though if it is, then I guess our fanbase really isn't as smart as I had hoped.

The fanbase is dumb argument again y2k?....

 

[y2kcanucks]

I think most of the fanbase, outside of this [MOD], is sophisticated enough to realize that no GM could have turned this into a contender in 4 years. 2015 Old core got 101 pts....going from that to replacing the core to contender again in the time frame the short sighted myopic "satisfy me now" individuals who dominate this particular forum expect is not realistic.

Also, why do you try and split the fan bases into pro-Benning and anti-Benning camps. There are plenty of people that can be critical of some moves and praise other moves management has made. Its possible to think that management has made some mistakes and is generally guiding the team in the right direction without being in either camp. Just because you want the team to fail to fulfill your fantasy and justify the tens of thousands of hours you spend here regurgitating the same tired tripe doesnt mean everything is black and white.

[MOD]

Also, no one expected this team to be a contender after 4 years. But we expected that the GM would actually rebuild. Instead, he actively tried to push for the playoffs but instead built the worst team in the NHL over the last 3.5 years. Why do you ignore this fact? Oh right, because you have to ignore facts in order to come out with your pro-Benning nonsense.

It's not possible to think that management is guiding the team in the right direction if you actually look at the facts.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Wow, are you a comedian now?... you post an HFvan poll as evidence which is over a year old (before the extension)...you may as well have just given me a link to the tank thread.

Whats interesting is that the amount of HFVan posters who think that JB is the worst GM is now at 25%. (taken in last weeks poll)....and this on site that is predominately longtime negative anti-managements.

Not a comedian, just someone who knows you like to spin things and that you ignore facts and reality.

2/3rds of posters on here who voted on a poll rank Benning as a bottom 5 GM in the league.

The fanbase is dumb argument again y2k?....

I said, if that was true, then yes. Because facts do not support the idea that Benning is a good GM. You have not once used anything factual to support your position.

 

[racerjoe]

I think there is an easy argument to make this team even with Elias is worse than last season given the data we currently have. I am sure it needs more of a look than what I am doing, but given that we have the same number of points as the last few seasons, but are now playing worse competition. The West is clearly worse this year and that is who we should be primarily playing. On top of that I believe there were some other stats showing we have been riding some fairly unsustainable things including PDO, EP's shooting percentage, and some great goaltending of late, I think .940 since December).

Again probably need to look deeper, but just what i am seeing.

 

[Bleach Clean]

HFcanucks is not representative of most of the fanbase. Not even most of the online fanbase - it is by far the most pessimistic community in terms of evaluating management. Using it as a sample isn't necessarily indicative of whether or not PoM's assertion that people were more or less content with JB's re-signing was accurate.

Slight correction: I think it would be more accurate to say that this board is more critical of Benning's work, not pessimistic. Pessimism implies an emotion that is imposed upon an analysis. When clearly, it was the analysis that led to the initial criticism, which then resulted in pessimism.

As to your larger assertion: Yes, the larger fanbase was content with JB's re-signing... However, I hope it wasn't your intention to mark this act as a positive one overall? That people choose to support a sub-standard manager, by majority, is in no way a good thing.

@Jimbo57 trying to spin this as sophistication... I think that grossly misrepresents the acumen of all online parties here, let alone that of the casual fan. No one is digging as deep into baselines and logic as HF is IMO. (Save for maybe Canucks Army and a few Analytics bloggers)

 

[Jimbo57]

[MOD]

Also, no one expected this team to be a contender after 4 years. But we expected that the GM would actually rebuild. Instead, he actively tried to push for the playoffs but instead built the worst team in the NHL over the last 3.5 years. Why do you ignore this fact? Oh right, because you have to ignore facts in order to come out with your pro-Benning nonsense.

It's not possible to think that management is guiding the team in the right direction if you actually look at the facts.

what you havent wrapped your head around is that this team was destined to be bad for a few years no matter who the GM was. Combo of what the owners wanted + a garbage prospect pool + challenging contracts handed out to declining vets. Plus your definition of rebuild is skewed. This isnt your xbox where you magically trade everyone over 25 for blue chip prospects in return. LOL.

 

[Jimbo57]

No one is digging as deep into baselines and logic as HF is IMO. (Save for maybe Canucks Army and a few Analytics bloggers)

LOL. Thats a good one.

 

[Bleach Clean]

LOL. Thats a good one.

Reference something that has scrutinized Benning's work to the same level as HF.