18/19 MGMT thread VIII

[Bleach Clean]

what you havent wrapped your head around is that this team was destined to be bad for a few years no matter who the GM was. Combo of what the owners wanted + a garbage prospect pool + challenging contracts handed out to declining vets. Plus your definition of rebuild is skewed. This isnt your xbox where you magically trade everyone over 25 for blue chip prospects in return. LOL.

It was destined to be bad. On that we can agree. That said, where we don't agree is the following:

- How long was it expected to be bad?
- What should the GM have done in the meantime?
- How well is Benning executing in the meantime?

Cratering is not the issue. Challenging contracts (to Benning maybe) and a weak prospect pool were not the issues. It's what Benning did in that weakened state that is the issue. Your assumption here is that any GM would have had the same performance given the initial state of the team -- And that's wrong.

 

[4Twenty]

Wow, are you a comedian now?... you post an HFvan poll as evidence which is over a year old (before the extension)...you may as well have just given me a link to the tank thread.

Whats interesting is that the amount of HFVan posters who think that JB is the worst GM is now at 25%. (taken in last weeks poll)....and this on site that is predominately longtime negative anti-managements.

Well what's interesting is that the parallels between Benning's popularity going has a lot to do with what the other GM's around him have done, namely Chiarelli getting fired and Tallon being....Tallon, sort of like the Canucks playoff hopes - the point totals is similar to other years, yet the rest of the league has worsened, falsely making it seem like there is massive upward trajectory. There isn't. They are closer to a bottom 5 pick than 3rd place in their own division.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Well what's interesting is that the parallels between Benning's popularity going has a lot to do with what the other GM's around him have done, namely Chiarelli getting fired and Tallon being....Tallon, sort of like the Canucks playoff hopes - the point totals is similar to other years, yet the rest of the league has worsened, falsely making it seem like there is massive upward trajectory. There isn't. They are closer to a bottom 5 pick than 3rd place in their own division.

It's a key point that PoM will not acknowledge because if he does, then it shatters his main push to prop up Benning's work in the present. He is relying on the perception of the Canucks right now, and their proximity to the playoff bar, to whitewash the 3 years of the worst win percentage in the league.

Good luck to him.

 

[xtra]

Wow, are you a comedian now?... you post an HFvan poll as evidence which is over a year old (before the extension)...you may as well have just given me a link to the tank thread.

Whats interesting is that the amount of HFVan posters who think that JB is the worst GM is now at 25%. (taken in last weeks poll)....and this on site that is predominately longtime negative anti-managements.

So your admitting that benning is a bottom 5 gm, why do you think that bottom 5 is acceptable?

Honestly be easier on everyone if you were posting on a site that followed your rah rah everything g so great attitude. You can’t even admit he’s a bottom 5 gm

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So your admitting that benning is a bottom 5 gm, why do you think that bottom 5 is acceptable?

Honestly be easier on everyone if you were posting on a site that followed your rah rah everything g so great attitude. You can’t even admit he’s a bottom 5 gm

I voted him as an average GM...As to him being considered a 'bottom 5' on this site via the poll, I merely observed that he does not get the 'hate' that he got a year or two earlier....on these boards.

 

[xtra]

I voted him as an average GM...As to him being considered a 'bottom 5' on this site via the poll, I merely observed that he does not get the 'hate' that he got a year or two earlier....on these boards.

But your vote on average was based only on his post 2017 deadline work because as you mentioned he screwed up before then correct?

 

[rypper]

Wow, are you a comedian now?... you post an HFvan poll as evidence which is over a year old (before the extension)...you may as well have just given me a link to the tank thread.

Whats interesting is that the amount of HFVan posters who think that JB is the worst GM is now at 25%. (taken in last weeks poll)....and this on site that is predominately longtime negative anti-managements.

63% consider him a bottom 5 GM.

 

[Svencouver]

Slight correction: I think it would me more accurate to say that this board is more critical of Benning's work, not pessimistic. Pessimism implies an emotion that is imposed upon an analysis. When clearly, it was the analysis that led to the initial criticism.

As to your larger assertion: Yes, the larger fanbase was content with JB's re-signing... However, I hope it wasn't your intention to mark this act as a positive one overall? That people choose to support a sub-standard manager, by majority, is in no way a good thing.

@Jimbo57 trying to spin this as sophistication... I think that grossly misrepresents the acumen of all online parties here, let alone that of the casual fan. No one is digging as deep into baselines and logic as HF is IMO. (Save for maybe Canucks Army and a few Analytics bloggers)

Fair enough, that would be more accurate.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

But your vote on average was based only on his post 2017 deadline work because as you mentioned he screwed up before then correct?

Fair question...based on his pre TDL 2017 work,I would have said he was a bottom 5 ......post TDL 2017..average.

Given the mandate and constraints at the time..(2014)..,I don't think any GM that would have been hired by the Canucks would have come out smelling like roses.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

63% consider him a bottom 5 GM.

As opposed to a virtually unanimous poll on here that thought he shouldn't be extended (Dec,2017)....

Again this is HFVan...which is in no way indicative of the main fanbase..or the media for that matter.

 

[I in the Eye]

Fair question...based on his pre TDL 2017 work,I would have said he was a bottom 5 ......post TDL 2017..average.

Given the mandate and constraints at the time..(2014)..,I don't think any GM that would have been hired by the Canucks would have come out smelling like roses.

How much more time do you need, before giving up on Benning? Last year, I think you said this was the year you needed to see major team progress... and here we are at the same amount of points after 50 games, and you still seem to believe. What they do down the stretch can turn you into a non-believer, or does Benning get another 1, 2, 5, 10, 25 years? Everyone must have a time limit when enough is enough.

 

[I in the Eye]

Again this is HFVan...which is in no way indicative of the main fanbase..or the media for that matter.

How can you know that, with regards to the fanbase? To the best of my knowledge there has never been an independent survey done by a non-biased research body... HF is a source that attracts fans, and there are other sources that attract fans. All these sources attract fans that by and large support the reporting and the messaging and the discussion of a particular angle. There are many Canucks fans who have likely never participated in an online poll. We don't know what the majority of Canucks fans think, overall. We only know what the majority of Canucks fans think within our circles. Within my circle, which extends into the non-digital world, the majority think that Benning is an idiot. Your circle might be different. But who knows overall what Canucks fans think.

 

[pgj98m3]

How can you know that, with regards to the fanbase? To the best of my knowledge there has never been an independent survey done by a non-biased research body... HF is a source that attracts fans, and there are other sources that attract fans. All these sources attract fans that support the reporting and the messaging and the discussion of a particular angle. There are many Canucks fans who have likely never participated in an online poll. We don't know what the majority of Canucks fans think, overall. We only know what the majority of Canucks fans think within our circles. Within my circle, which extends into the non-digital world, the majority think that Benning is an idiot. Your circle might be different. But who knows overall what Canucks fans think.

When your circle (referring to MofP of course) consists of a computer screen and and your Mother's basement your opinion might be a bit idiosyncratic.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

How much more time do you need, before giving up on Benning? Last year, I think you said this was the year you needed to see major team progress... and here we are at the same amount of points after 50 games, and you still seem to believe. What they do down the stretch can turn you into a non-believer, or does Benning get another 1, 2, 5, 10, 25 years? Everyone must have a time limit when enough is enough.

This year there has been progress..The general consensus said we had no scoring at the beginning of the year..Its been a lot of fun watching watching this new young core of players develop...Just because the point totals are close to the last few years, does not tell the whole story (we're not even supposed to be anywhere near a playoff spot)...This year has already been a win-win for ownership and management (playoffs or not).

Benning brought us Elias Pettersson,Brock Boeser,and Quinn Hughes (?)...I think he deserves an opportunity to see his picks through...and get a crack at assembling an elite team.

Again,next year will be crucial as to whether JB can take this team to the next level

 

[y2kcanucks]

what you havent wrapped your head around is that this team was destined to be bad for a few years no matter who the GM was. Combo of what the owners wanted + a garbage prospect pool + challenging contracts handed out to declining vets. Plus your definition of rebuild is skewed. This isnt your xbox where you magically trade everyone over 25 for blue chip prospects in return. LOL.

Wrong. As usual.

What YOU haven’t wrapped your head around is that yes, while we both agree this team was destined to be bad, YOU fail to acknowledge that the GM actively tried to make this team good. He went out and sold a lot of futures to make this team good. He went out and gave out a lot of bad contracts to veterans to make this team good. And ultimately, despite Benning’s efforts, this team has been really bad.

My definition of a rebuild isn’t skewed at all. All Benning had to do was target a futures based package for Kesler. Stop trading after he sold Garrison and Bieksa for 2’s, avoid signing free agent veterans to longterm contracts, start the trade process with Hamhuis much sooner than he did, and that literally would have been much better than what he’s done. That’s not even half of what I demanded, but that’s still closer to a rebuild than what’s happened.

The reason we have this disagreement about the team because of your inability to differentiate between a bad team and a rebuild. All teams in a rebuild are bad, but not all bad teams are in a rebuild.

 

[y2kcanucks]

This year there has been progress..The general consensus said we had no scoring at the beginning of the year..Its been a lot of fun watching watching this new young core of players develop...Just because the point totals are close to the last few years, does not tell the whole story (we're not even supposed to be anywhere near a playoff spot)...This year has already been a win-win for ownership and management (playoffs or not).

Benning brought us Elias Pettersson,Brock Boeser,and Quinn Hughes (?)...I think he deserves an opportunity to see his picks through...and get a crack at assembling an elite team.

Again,next year will be crucial as to whether JB can take this team to the next level

Two impact players, and one quality prospect despite this team being as bad as it has been for so long is actually not very impressive at all. That’s like saying the Oilers have done a great job because they have McDavid, Draisaitl, and RNH.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

How can you know that, with regards to the fanbase? To the best of my knowledge there has never been an independent survey done by a non-biased research body... HF is a source that attracts fans, and there are other sources that attract fans. All these sources attract fans that by and large support the reporting and the messaging and the discussion of a particular angle. There are many Canucks fans who have likely never participated in an online poll. We don't know what the majority of Canucks fans think, overall. We only know what the majority of Canucks fans think within our circles. Within my circle, which extends into the non-digital world, the majority think that Benning is an idiot. Your circle might be different. But who knows overall what Canucks fans think.

At the end of the day, there are probably 50 or so hardcore anti management posters here...and even though I disagree with certain things, some are knowledgable hockey posters...looking at the polls, this is a very small board...usually with only 200 or 300 posters participating.

Compare this with Reddit/Canucks which has 32,000 users...That will give you an indication of what fans think of Ownership/management.

 

[y2kcanucks]

At the end of the day, there are probably 50 or so hardcore anti management posters here...and even though I disagree with certain things, some are knowledgable hockey posters...looking at the polls, this is a very small board...usually with only 200 or 300 posters participating.

Compare this with Reddit/Canucks which has 32,000 users...That will give you an indication of what fans think of Ownership/management.

Reddit is a terrible place as people aren’t allowed to be critical of the team there. And CDC has always been a cesspool dating back before you were born.

 

[member 290103]

I voted him as an average GM...As to him being considered a 'bottom 5' on this site via the poll, I merely observed that he does not get the 'hate' that he got a year or two earlier....on these boards.

That’s only because he’s been largely inactive since the Summer. Before you know it he will extend Edler at some dumb amount and trumpet how they need him to help the kids, and then he will trade draft picks for bad veteran players all in hopes of being able to lose four straight playoff games.

Abysmal doesn’t even begin to describe how poorly he has managed the team.

 

[I in the Eye]

At the end of the day, there are probably 50 or so hardcore anti management posters here...and even though I disagree with certain things, some are knowledgable hockey posters...looking at the polls, this is a very small board...usually with only 200 or 300 posters participating.

Compare this with Reddit/Canucks which has 32,000 users...That will give you an indication of what fans think of Ownership/management.

OK, but how many Canuck fans do you think there are, in total, around the world? Is Reddit/Canucks a representative sample? From what I hear, Canuck fans critical of Benning get booted pretty quick on Reddit/Canucks. Assuming there are 32,000 users on Reddit/Canucks, these are by-and-large non-critical of Benning by nature of the accepted audience by the source.

You may be right, that the majority of Canuck fans outside of here don't consider Benning a bottom 5 GM... but Reddit/Canucks can't be a reliable source. In the case of Canucks, that is a board that is paid for by the team. They are going to have a certain voice and angle. We're biased here, you and others say? I think you're right... I know I'm biased. I know I read things other people I respect for Canuck opinions and data here without following up details for myself (for example, I'm not following up on you saying that Canucks and Reddit have 32,000 users... you're a long time poster here, so I trust you're either right, or will be corrected). I'm influenced, as I don't have the time nor the desire to compile all the information and data for myself. I take what others say, and what makes sense to me, I keep that in my head, and build upon it with my $.02. But why wouldn't a board funded by the Canucks be biased as well? Why wouldn't a board that, by it's nature must be pro-Canucks, be unable to influence the audience in their thinking and decision-making processes?

It's all biased. Canucks, Sportsnet, HFboards, Reddit, etc., etc., etc.

I have no idea what the majority of Canuck fans think... and I don't think anyone does. Your impression is that the majority aren't as critical as here, by nature of your circles, and the size of your circles. There are many more than 32,000 Canuck fans in the world. Who knows what the majority, overall, thinks.

 

[Hit the post]

That’s only because he’s been largely inactive since the Summer.

Horrible blueline the previous season + tons of caps space = do nothing on D.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

OK, but how many Canuck fans do you think there are, in total, around the world? Is Reddit/Canucks a representative sample? From what I hear, Canuck fans critical of Benning get booted pretty quick on Reddit/Canucks. Reddit/Canucks are 32,000 users which are by-and-large non-critical of Benning by nature of the accepted audience.

You may be right, that the majority of Canuck fans outside of here don't consider Benning a bottom 5 GM... but Reddit/Canucks can't be a reliable source. In the case of Canucks, that is a board that is paid for by the team. They are going to have a certain voice and angle. We're biased here, you and others say? I think you're right... I know I'm biased. I know I read things other people I respect for Canuck opinions here without following up details for myself. I'm influenced, as I don't have the time nor the desire to compile all the information and data for myself. I take what others say, and what makes sense to me, I keep that in my head. But why wouldn't a board funded by the Canucks be biased as well? Why wouldn't a board that, by it's nature must be pro-Canucks, be unable to influence the audience in their thinking and decision-making processes?

It's all biased. Canucks, Sportsnet, HFboards, Reddit, etc., etc., etc.

I have no idea what the majority of Canuck fans think... and I don't think anyone does. Your impression is that the majority aren't as critical as here, by nature of your circles, and the size of your circles. There are many more than 32,000 Canuck fans in the world. Who knows what the majority, overall, thinks.

I had no idea that you get booted off of Reddit..I thought that you just got downvoted or something like that.

Probably the best way to determine the current temperature of the team is the mainstream media...especially the print media..They will savage the team if its called for...

Television all seem to be pro Canuck management...Brian Burke,Elliott Friedman,Iain McIntyre etc

 

[tyhee]

There is a vocal minority who like to ignore facts and logic and have screamed their support for Benning, but I don't believe that's the majority of the fanbase. Though if it is, then I guess our fanbase really isn't as smart as I had hoped.

I believe that among Canuck fans most still favour Benning.

The start of every fairy tale is, so I will use it, Once upon a time ... I was a poster on CDC, which has already been mentioned. It was (and I think remains) quite a bit busier than the Canucks section of hfb. It is overwhelmingly pro-Benning. The last I took a good look around (at a guess, perhaps a couple of weeks ago) I couldn't stay because my point of view is so different from what most on there believe. That's been pretty much the way it's been for a long while. There aren't many posters that I could even begin to hold a discussion with.

Reddit has been mentioned already.

Canucksarmy is another. Once upon a time, long ago, it was an analytics site. After a couple of years of the Canucks being really bad the analytics were too "negative" for the overwhelming majority of posters there.

I was pretty much neutral about Benning until the 2015 extensions given Dorsett and Sbisa, which seemed so ridiculous that I could no longer give him the benefit of the doubt. On hfb there is a large contingent that understand that position and agree with much of it, though those will all have different jumping off points when they decided, to put it politely, that Benning wasn't a good manager. Other places I read with comments from Canucks fans, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Imo there's a great divide between the fans who want to cheer (and consider those who criticize not to be fans at all) and those fans who would like to cheer when there is something to cheer about but analyze and don't cheer when we think the management is making mistakes.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I had no idea that you get booted off of Reddit..I thought that you just got downvoted or something like that.

Probably the best way to determine the current temperature of the team is the mainstream media...especially the print media..They will savage the team if its called for...

Television all seem to be pro Canuck management...Brian Burke,Elliott Friedman,Iain McIntyre etc

That's all I have to say.

Look, we're getting nowhere. You prefer to make things up and ignore the facts. You have never provided any factual analysis to support your position, ever. There's nothing more that we need to discuss. You're just plain wrong.

 

[Peen]

I had no idea that you get booted off of Reddit..I thought that you just got downvoted or something like that.

Probably the best way to determine the current temperature of the team is the mainstream media...especially the print media..They will savage the team if its called for...

Television all seem to be pro Canuck management...Brian Burke,Elliott Friedman,Iain McIntyre etc

I've never seen anything to indicate Friedman is.

Also lol, old boys club Brian Burke and shill Imac