18/19 MGMT thread VII. WARNING POST #25

[racerjoe]

I meant to reply to the earlier comment, where you called them a very lucky team.

Can you show me in either post where I said they were not a good team? I actually called them good.

 

[RandV]

I think what you can take from the Chiarelli/Benning Cup winning combo is that winning a Stanley Cup isn't necessarily dependant on the competency of your general manager. A lot of circumstance goes into building a team, and a lot of luck into actually winning the Stanley Cup.

 

[Melvin]

I think what you can take from the Chiarelli/Benning Cup winning combo is that winning a Stanley Cup isn't necessarily dependant on the competency of your general manager. A lot of circumstance goes into building a team, and a lot of luck into actually winning the Stanley Cup.

Yes.

Also it's possible to have a good front office even if the people at the top are tools, as anyone who has worked on a good team with bad leadership knows.

We want badly to believe that there is 1.0 correlation between gm competence and team performance but it simply doesn't exist and never will.

 

[Jyrki21]

We want badly to believe that there is 1.0 correlation between gm competence and team performance but it simply doesn't exist and never will.

To paraphrase something you've said before, though, if the NHL really had a market-based approach rather than rewarding failure with draft position, you'd get a lot more direct of a connection, obviously.

 

[Melvin]

To paraphrase something you've said before, though, if the NHL really had a market-based approach rather than rewarding failure with draft position, you'd get a lot more direct of a connection, obviously.

Well sure.

I can only imagine the kind of havoc it would cause the corporate world if every underperforming company were gifted exclusive rights to the top available young talent every year.

 

[tyhee]

I think the Canucks have made a mistake. Hopefully it won't come back to bite them, but it seems a mistake nevertheless.

Imo placing McKenna on waivers yesterday was a mistake in timing.

The Canucks just finished making a trade to get Demko room to come to the NHL. They traded their backup goalie and a good, physical AHL winger for an older, cheaper apparently weaker goalie, an older forward who isn't ancient but whose game has fallen off a cliff and a 6th round pick. I can see no reason for the Canucks to make that trade other than to get Demko to the NHL. The idea was to promote Demko and send McKenna to Utica as the new starter there.

To get McKenna to Utica requires that he be put on waivers. I joked to my wife when the news of the trade first came out that undoubtedly the day the Canucks put McKenna on waivers to send him down some team would lose a goalie to injury, not have a great backup plan or depth and so McKenna would get claimed, leaving Markstrom and Demko in Vancouver as planned but only Kulbakov, the system's ECHL goaltender, for the Comets.

The Toronto Maple Leafs lost two goaltenders on waivers at the beginning of this NHL season which of course took a toll on their system depth in goal. Their starter, Fredrick Andersen, is hurt and has been since before Christmas, though he was just placed on the IRL. Their backup, Garret Sparks, is on concussion protocol. Both of these injuries occurred BEFORE McKenna was placed on waivers. The Leafs are left with their AHL tandem filling in at the NHL level, with the Leafs making clear they want to send Kaskisuo back to the Marlies. They have available cap space this season and four empty roster spots.

It makes perfect sense for them to claim McKenna so as to be able to send Kaskisuo back to the AHL, use McKenna as the backup and then when Andersen and Sparks are healthy, they can waive McKenna. Even if they ended up with injuried goalies the rest of the way and ended up keeping him, he's on a cheap, expiring contract and they have both the contract room and the cap space so that it doesn't hurt them. They just don't re-sign him in the summer and there is no long-term effect.

If McKenna is claimed, the Comets have only Kulbakov in goal. They'll need to send Pat Conacher out to find an ECHL goalie to sign to a PTO just so Kulbakov (who was intended to be an ECHL goalie and occasional AHL injury fill-in this season) will have a backup.

Surely there shouldn't be THAT much rush to get Demko to Vancouver. Facing AHL sharpshooters for another week or two can't possibly ruin his development. Unless Benning called Dubas and got assurance he wasn't going to put in a claim, this makes no sense to me at all.

The Comets aren't a very good team. They lacked a physical presence and need their goalie to outplay the opponents' goalie to consistently contend. The trade removed a physical presence and if it works out as planned should only bring a small downgrade in goal. If McKenna is lost, then the Comets' goaltending rates to be substandard and not good enough to expect the Comets to be competitive.

I hope the Leafs don't claim McKenna and it all works out. It might. McKenna is someone that would normally be expected to pass waivers, but imo the Canucks should have exercised patience, taken a look at the landscape and chosen to do the swap between McKenna and Demko when there wasn't a team in the unusual circumstances in which claiming McKenna might make sense.

The Leafs finally placing Andersen on the IRL yesterday worries me that they did so in anticipation of claiming McKenna.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Also the fact that they had him as a backup while already being waived. Why not wait? I’d laugh if they had to play him and he was trash just to stick it to us.

Benning once again with the incompetent decisions. Sure, we’ve become numb to them at this point, but it’s hilarious to see it happen over and over, regardless of how big or small the situation is.

It’s like watching the news every day and hearing the new idiotic thing that Trump has done. You get immune to all of it, but from time to time you just laugh to yourself thinking “how did this moron end up with so much power?”

 

[TruGr1t]

I now look forward to them trading the 6th rounder we acquired in the Nilsson trade for another depth goaltender and claiming it was fortuitous they had that extra pick kicking around. Morons.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Can we all agree that this next summer will be a make or break FA period for the Jimbo led management. They have the chance to screw us for years to come if they swing for the fences and miss.

Even the most hardcore Benning supporters will have to admit that this summer is a crossroad for the team and if they do a Loui Eriksson part deux the team will be hamstrung for years to come.

Or are there some folk who are willing to give him another mulligan, even if the next summer is a disaster?

I'm sick and tired of this same old line being repeated every year.

"This summer will be make or break for Benning"
"This trade deadline will be make or break for Benning"
"It's not about this year, he'll be judged on what the team does next year."

The goal posts move every year. At what point does the general consensus accept the fact that this is just a very bad hockey team? The team is being carried by Pettersson, Boeser, and Horvat. The Canucks top 3 defensemen are holdovers from the previous GM who was fired half a decade ago, and the team has an average goalie who has stretches where he can get hot and carry the team as well.

The support cast around the top 3 forwards is pure garbage. And for the team being this bad for as long as they have been, the amount of quality youth in the organization is shockingly low.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I'm sick and tired of this same old line being repeated every year.

"This summer will be make or break for Benning"
"This trade deadline will be make or break for Benning"
"It's not about this year, he'll be judged on what the team does next year."

The goal posts move every year. At what point does the general consensus accept the fact that this is just a very bad hockey team? The team is being carried by Pettersson, Boeser, and Horvat. The Canucks top 3 defensemen are holdovers from the previous GM who was fired half a decade ago, and the team has an average goalie who has stretches where he can get hot and carry the team as well.

The support cast around the top 3 forwards is pure garbage. And for the team being this bad for as long as they have been, the amount of quality youth in the organization is shockingly low.

The team leads the league in points from players 23 and under, if I recall correctly, and the farm system was ranked between 3rd and 7th by major publications post-draft.

 

[pgj98m3]

The team leads the league in points from players 23 and under, if I recall correctly, and the farm system was ranked between 3rd and 7th by major publications post-draft.

And how does the farm team look now......

 

[bandwagonesque]

And how does the farm team look now......

The team's best prospects aren't on the farm team.

 

[pgj98m3]

The team's best prospects aren't on the farm team.

I think you can drop the"esque" you aren't fooling anybody

 

[bandwagonesque]

I think you can drop the"esque" you aren't fooling anybody

Can you actually dispute what I was saying in a coherent way?

 

[y2kcanucks]

The team leads the league in points from players 23 and under, if I recall correctly, and the farm system was ranked between 3rd and 7th by major publications post-draft.

That farm system ranking included Pettersson as part of it, which he clearly has graduated from. This also came out before Kole Lind and Jonah Gadjovich looked like complete flops at the pro-level. Even Jonathan Dahlen and Adam Gaudette don't look that great anymore based on this season. A year ago, people like you were grossly overhyping all these guys, penciling them into Canucks lineups of the future. At this point we'll be lucky if even one of those players (Lind, Gadjovich, Dahlen, Gaudette) become NHL regulars.

And like I said, the Canucks are being carried by 3 forwards: Horvat, Pettersson, and Boeser. The rest of their team is garbage. And no, you don't recall correctly. Just a quick spot-check reveals that Edmonton has higher point contributions from players 23 and under. Is that the team you strive to model the Canucks after? Because they have had prospect pools ranked at the top end of the league as well. And, as I've stated numerous times, they have had the same incompetent management as the Canucks, so I guess the comparison isn't far off.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The team's best prospects aren't on the farm team.

Yup. Our best prospects, every year, are never on the farm team because once they get there and start playing at the pro level they flop. Shiny new prospect syndrome.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Yup. Our best prospects, every year, are never on the farm team because once they get there and start playing at the pro level they flop. Shiny new prospect syndrome.

Our best prospects are Quinn Hughes, Tyler Madden, Michael DiPietro, Jett Woo and Thatcher Demko. One's been on the farm team for two seasons, two are ineligible to play there, and the other two are 19, in college hockey and have never been the subject of any suggestion from you or anyone else that they'd be better off in Utica. So literally none of our best prospects this year fit the description you claim our best prospects fit every year.

 

[racerjoe]

Of Woo and Madden are two of your best prospects you are in trouble.

Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with either of them, but they aren’t grade A prospects.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Our best prospects are Quinn Hughes, Tyler Madden, Michael DiPietro, Jett Woo and Thatcher Demko. One's been on the farm team for two seasons, two are ineligible to play there, and the other two are 19, in college hockey and have never been the subject of any suggestion from you or anyone else that they'd be better off in Utica. So literally none of our best prospects this year fit the description you claim our best prospects fit every year.

Thats just because none of them have had time to fail yet.
This happens every year with non-objective posters.

 

[pgj98m3]

Can you actually dispute what I was saying in a coherent way?

Sure...we don't have any real prospects on the farm....cause Benning has basically crapped the bed.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Thats just because none of them have had time to fail yet.
This happens every year with non-objective posters.

Great. I didn't say anything about whether they were likely to fail or not, I was disputing the statement that our best prospects were failed AHLers. You're smarter than this.

 

[RandV]

That farm system ranking included Pettersson as part of it, which he clearly has graduated from. This also came out before Kole Lind and Jonah Gadjovich looked like complete flops at the pro-level. Even Jonathan Dahlen and Adam Gaudette don't look that great anymore based on this season. A year ago, people like you were grossly overhyping all these guys, penciling them into Canucks lineups of the future. At this point we'll be lucky if even one of those players (Lind, Gadjovich, Dahlen, Gaudette) become NHL regulars.

I wouldn't group Gaudette with the other 3 there he looks like a pretty good guarantee to be at least a bottom six player, rather the problem was going into the season you'd expect his upside was that of a top six player. Normally you'd allow for some patience for a first year pro to adjust, but guys coming out of 3-4 years of college with his kind of numbers if they're going to score in the NHL usually start doing it right away: Gaudreau, Boeser, Bozak, K.Hayes, Guentzel, etc etc. Now I'm hoping for the guy to succeed but I don't think you'll find many players who put up 1.5-2.0 PPG in years 2-3 in college then only put up 6 points in there first 36 NHL games develop later into top 6 NHL guys.

But either way it's the same effect to what you're saying, our prospect pool 'ranking' has taken a bit hit half a season from those guys turning pro. I'm sure with Woo/Madden/etc it's going to be different though!

 

[y2kcanucks]

Our best prospects are Quinn Hughes, Tyler Madden, Michael DiPietro, Jett Woo and Thatcher Demko. One's been on the farm team for two seasons, two are ineligible to play there, and the other two are 19, in college hockey and have never been the subject of any suggestion from you or anyone else that they'd be better off in Utica. So literally none of our best prospects this year fit the description you claim our best prospects fit every year.

Hughes I agree with...he was drafted high in the 1st round so he better be one of our best prospects.

Madden and Woo were just drafted this past draft....like I said: shiny new prospect syndrome.

DiPietro looks good, as does Demko, though I've seen a lot of highly ranked goalies bust. Just like we see some goalies who were never ranked highly make it. So hard to predict how a goalie will adapt.

A year ago you would have argued that Kole Lind, Jonah Gadjovich, Jonathan Dahlen, Adam Gaudette, and Olli Juolevi were among our best prospects. What happened? Oh yeah, they all got to the pro level and they all flamed out.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I wouldn't group Gaudette with the other 3 there he looks like a pretty good guarantee to be at least a bottom six player, rather the problem was going into the season you'd expect his upside was that of a top six player. Normally you'd allow for some patience for a first year pro to adjust, but guys coming out of 3-4 years of college with his kind of numbers if they're going to score in the NHL usually start doing it right away: Gaudreau, Boeser, Bozak, K.Hayes, Guentzel, etc etc. Now I'm hoping for the guy to succeed but I don't think you'll find many players who put up 1.5-2.0 PPG in years 2-3 in college then only put up 6 points in there first 36 NHL games develop later into top 6 NHL guys.

But either way it's the same effect to what you're saying, our prospect pool 'ranking' has taken a bit hit half a season from those guys turning pro. I'm sure with Woo/Madden/etc it's going to be different though.

I don't think it will be much different with Woo/Madden. Probably more of the same. Can they develop into quality NHLers? Of course. But should we be penciling them into the lineup? Absolutely not. And should we be pounding our chests because these guys are going to lead this team to a Cup? Laughable.

 

[member 290103]

Of Woo and Madden are two of your best prospects you are in trouble.

Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with either of them, but they aren’t grade A prospects.

But how many teams out there have multiple grade A prospects? Most grade A prospects have just been drafted...otherwise they are already in the NHL, if they are grade A.