Prospect Info: 17th Overall Dante Fabbro

Legionnaire11

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I feel like people are gonna be surprised at just how good and NHL ready he actually is already.

What is this based on?

I've lowered my immediate expectations for Fabbro because a friend if mine covers hockey east for a student paper at Vermont and isn't that high on him, or at least not as high on him as last summer. Said he didn't really take another step forward in development and wasn't an impact player most nights, especially compared to expectations.

Of course this isn't a professional scout, and as a Preds fan I'm obviously rooting for Fabbro to come in and blow the doors off. But I'm definitely in the wait and see camp on him for now.
 
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King Weber

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What is this based on?

I've lowered my immediate expectations for Fabbro because a friend if mine covers hockey easy for a student paper at Vermont and isn't that high on him, or at least not as high on him as last summer. Said he didn't really take another step forward in development and wasn't an impact player most nights, especially compared to expectations.

Of course this isn't a professional scout, and as a Preds fan I'm obviously rooting for Fabbro to come in and blow the doors off. But I'm definitely in the wait and see camp on him for now.

Seen him play mainly for Team Canada at the U18's, U20's and Spengler Cup and few games here and there for BU and he's always looked very solid to me.

Then again, I thought the same thing about Tolvanen and he ended up needing some more seasoning than I expected, so who knows.
 
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Flgatorguy87

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What is this based on?

I've lowered my immediate expectations for Fabbro because a friend if mine covers hockey easy for a student paper at Vermont and isn't that high on him, or at least not as high on him as last summer. Said he didn't really take another step forward in development and wasn't an impact player most nights, especially compared to expectations.

Of course this isn't a professional scout, and as a Preds fan I'm obviously rooting for Fabbro to come in and blow the doors off. But I'm definitely in the wait and see camp on him for now.


That's the opposite of what I have read about him. He had his best season to date and was a defensive workhorse for a very mediocre team. He isn't a flashy guy. I think Hamhuis is a good comparable for his game based on following him since draft date.

I'd say his age is the biggest factor for not being ready yet. He's very young for a defensive prospect.
 
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Legionnaire11

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An exact conversation we had on Fabbro at the end of January:

Me: Hopefully Fabbro signs when his season is done so the Preds can run with
Josi - Subban
Ekholm - Ellis
Hamhuis - Fabbro

Friend: I honestly feel like Fabbro stagnated a bit at BU

Me: Any reason you might see that would influence that?

Friend: I'm not saying he's bad (he's BU's leading scorer), just that I think he hasn't really gotten a whole lot better, even though he's playing a lot more. Think a big part of it is BU's tendency to get caught in pond hockey and thus he's not really developed defensively. But maybe they see him as purely offensive, then they'll be happy because he produces most of his points on the PP
 

Porter Stoutheart

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"
the term "professional season" shall:
(A) for a Player aged 18 or 19, mean any season in which such Player
plays in eleven (11) or more Professional Games (including NHL Regular
Season and Playoff Games, minor league regular season and playoff
games, and games played in any European professional league, while
under an SPC), and (B) for a Player aged 20 or older, mean any season in
which such Player plays in one or more Professional Games (including
NHL Regular Season and Playoff Games, minor league regular season and
playoff games, and games played in any European professional league,

while under an SPC). "


The Collective Bargaining Agreement, 10.1 (b) (i) ... printed page number 28 (page 48 of the pdf... see link posted above).

I "got onboard" with the actual document from the league which defines terms, not some random blog.
For what it's worth, you just referenced the section on Group V Free Agents... that's 10.1(b)(i). Right after it there is another different definition in 10.1(c) for Group VI Free Agents. Whereas the sentiment behind the 10 games seems to trace back to the RFA definition of "professional experience" per 10.2(a)(i).

And then the NHL only blurbed out "all first- and second-year professionals, as well as all unsigned draft choices, will be exempt from selection (and will not be counted toward their club's applicable protection limits)" in their expansion draft precis. Which doesn't reference "professional games" or "professional experience" or any of the aforementioned sections of the CBA explicitly.

So pointing directly to CBA terminology is not going to provide a satisfactory answer in either case... you still need a roadmap of somebody from the league telling you explicitly what the Expansion Draft rules refer to, because the CBA was not written with the expansion draft in mind, and the NHL did not publish a detailed enough set of expansion draft rules with terminology as clearly defined as it was in the CBA.

Case study does support the 1 game definition, however. A lot of people in 2015 and 2016 took the "professional experience" definition from 10.2(a) beforehand, and iirc GeneralFanager which was widely used at the time led the charge on that, as that seemed like a more commonly referenced CBA section in general, and a justifiable definition from the CBA perspective, while still providing a wealth of young talent to Vegas in the expansion draft. But from anything I've seen, an example like Copp does indeed fly in the face of that definition. Players like Pesce and Skjei who I think may have been signed in circumstances similar to Fabbro (?) were not given 1 NHL game immediately but instead started with AHL time on ATOs. Which is presumably what Nashville would want to do with Fabbro as well if possible.

I like the idea of the 10 game rule better, it makes more sense to me, so lacking a clear definition from the NHL, I will stubbornly stick with that for the purposes of fun forum debates, even in the face of examples which don't seem to follow it! :) But that's because I'm nuts... not because I think any clear CBA-related answer has been provided to us - nothing that I've been able to google up anyway. I think it will be interesting to see if a Fabbro contract really does materialize or if instead he goes to Milwaukee on ATO, or whether he actually does play 1 game with the Preds. Maybe Poile doesn't care as much about Pitlick, and maybe he would rather try to protect Fabbro, and maybe that's why an official contract hasn't gone up on the board yet despite all parties agreeing that Fabbro is "going pro" and leaving BU to join us? We will soon see.

But regardless, you can't point to the Group V Free Agent section to settle this. Unless you have a league memo that explicitly (inexplicably!) says that the right definition out of the multiple definitions in the CBA is the one attached to Group V Free Agency, which is essentially an extinct form of Free Agency these days anyway. It makes total sense that GeneralFanager would have honed in instead on the Group 2 definition. Which it seems has turned out to have been mistaken too. There is a section on the Waiver exemption status in 13.4 which may also capture the intent behind the 1 game rule, if one still persists on relying on the CBA.

For what it's worth! :)

10.2 Restricted Free Agents.
(a) Group 2 Players and Free Agents.
(i) (A) Any Player who meets the qualifications set forth in the following
chart and: (1) is not a Group 1 Player or a Group 4 Player, and (2) is not
an Unrestricted Free Agent, shall be deemed to be a "Group 2 Player" and
shall, at the expiration of his SPC, become a Restricted Free Agent. Any
such Player shall be completely free to negotiate and sign an SPC with any
Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign an SPC
with any such Player, subject to the provisions set forth in this Section. As
used in this Section 10.2, "age," including "First SPC Signing Age" means
a Player's age on September 15 of the calendar year in which he signs an
SPC regardless of his actual age on the date he signs such SPC.
First SPC Signing Age Eligible for Group 2 Free Agency
18 - 21 3 years professional experience
22 - 23 2 years professional experience
24 or older 1 year professional experience

For the purposes of this Section 10.2(a), a Player aged 18 or 19 earns a
year of professional experience by playing ten (10) or more NHL Games
in a given NHL Season, and a Player aged 20 or older (or who turns 20
between September 16 and December 31 of the year in which he signs his
first SPC) earns a year of professional experience by playing ten (10) or
more Professional Games under an SPC in a given League Year.

 
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Porter Stoutheart

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I guess there are other potential Poilean ploys in play if Fabbro becomes expansion-eligible. One is the Josi-UFA-dodge. In which case you might sneak 5 defensemen through expansion if you go 4-4-1 and dodge Josi as a free agent. Or another is that if you have 5 guys you don't feel bad about exposing 2 of them and giving Seattle a potential "poison pill" in the event that, say, Subban has just 1 year left and looks as shaky as he has this year, or if Ellis has many years left on his big contract and isn't looking any better than a slow-ish, small-ish #3/4 guy like this year. Protect Josi-Ekholm-a-hopefully-progressed-Fabbro and let Seattle decide which poison pill out of Ellis/Subban they want to swallow. 2 years is plenty of time for options to emerge and evolve, anyway.

Although Fabbro just going to Milwaukee or staying as a pure Black Ace would be a nice twist if he's willing to go that route. Too much to ask of him, really, but would definitely endear him to all.
 

101st_fan

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For what it's worth, you just referenced the section on Group V Free Agents... that's 10.1(b)(i). Right after it there is another different definition in 10.1(c) for Group VI Free Agents. Whereas the sentiment behind the 10 games seems to trace back to the RFA definition of "professional experience" per 10.2(a)(i).

And then the NHL only blurbed out "all first- and second-year professionals, as well as all unsigned draft choices, will be exempt from selection (and will not be counted toward their club's applicable protection limits)" in their expansion draft precis. Which doesn't reference "professional games" or "professional experience" or any of the aforementioned sections of the CBA explicitly.

So pointing directly to CBA terminology is not going to provide a satisfactory answer in either case... you still need a roadmap of somebody from the league telling you explicitly what the Expansion Draft rules refer to, because the CBA was not written with the expansion draft in mind, and the NHL did not publish a detailed enough set of expansion draft rules with terminology as clearly defined as it was in the CBA.

Case study does support the 1 game definition, however. A lot of people in 2015 and 2016 took the "professional experience" definition from 10.2(a) beforehand, and iirc GeneralFanager which was widely used at the time led the charge on that, as that seemed like a more commonly referenced CBA section in general, and a justifiable definition from the CBA perspective, while still providing a wealth of young talent to Vegas in the expansion draft. But from anything I've seen, an example like Copp does indeed fly in the face of that definition. Players like Pesce and Skjei who I think may have been signed in circumstances similar to Fabbro (?) were not given 1 NHL game immediately but instead started with AHL time on ATOs. Which is presumably what Nashville would want to do with Fabbro as well if possible.

I like the idea of the 10 game rule better, it makes more sense to me, so lacking a clear definition from the NHL, I will stubbornly stick with that for the purposes of fun forum debates, even in the face of examples which don't seem to follow it! :) But that's because I'm nuts... not because I think any clear CBA-related answer has been provided to us - nothing that I've been able to google up anyway. I think it will be interesting to see if a Fabbro contract really does materialize or if instead he goes to Milwaukee on ATO, or whether he actually does play 1 game with the Preds. Maybe Poile doesn't care as much about Pitlick, and maybe he would rather try to protect Fabbro, and maybe that's why an official contract hasn't gone up on the board yet despite all parties agreeing that Fabbro is "going pro" and leaving BU to join us? We will soon see.

But regardless, you can't point to the Group V Free Agent section to settle this. Unless you have a league memo that explicitly (inexplicably!) says that the right definition out of the multiple definitions in the CBA is the one attached to Group V Free Agency, which is essentially an extinct form of Free Agency these days anyway. It makes total sense that GeneralFanager would have honed in instead on the Group 2 definition. Which it seems has turned out to have been mistaken too. There is a section on the Waiver exemption status in 13.4 which may also capture the intent behind the 1 game rule, if one still persists on relying on the CBA.

For what it's worth! :)

10.2 Restricted Free Agents.
(a) Group 2 Players and Free Agents.
(i) (A) Any Player who meets the qualifications set forth in the following
chart and: (1) is not a Group 1 Player or a Group 4 Player, and (2) is not
an Unrestricted Free Agent, shall be deemed to be a "Group 2 Player" and
shall, at the expiration of his SPC, become a Restricted Free Agent. Any
such Player shall be completely free to negotiate and sign an SPC with any
Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign an SPC
with any such Player, subject to the provisions set forth in this Section. As
used in this Section 10.2, "age," including "First SPC Signing Age" means
a Player's age on September 15 of the calendar year in which he signs an
SPC regardless of his actual age on the date he signs such SPC.
First SPC Signing Age Eligible for Group 2 Free Agency
18 - 21 3 years professional experience
22 - 23 2 years professional experience
24 or older 1 year professional experience

For the purposes of this Section 10.2(a), a Player aged 18 or 19 earns a
year of professional experience by playing ten (10) or more NHL Games
in a given NHL Season, and a Player aged 20 or older (or who turns 20
between September 16 and December 31 of the year in which he signs his
first SPC) earns a year of professional experience by playing ten (10) or
more Professional Games under an SPC in a given League Year.

Now look at the age of Fabbro and Pitlick and compare it to what you just wrote. It doesn't support your position.

Keep trying. You're making me laugh.
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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Now look at the age of Fabbro and Pitlick and compare it to what you just wrote. It doesn't support your position.

Keep trying. You're making me laugh.
Ok dude, I will say you have some serious reading comprehension issues, but if it makes you laugh that's all good, the world needs more laughter. What I wrote stands. Just as much as what you wrote. The point I'm trying to make is that they are BOTH WRONG. Or at least BOTH are equally irrelevant when it comes to providing any justification for what constitutes "professional experience" for the expansion draft.

You can't just lazily skim the CBA and haphazardly pick out some random paragraph which doles out a definition of professional experience. That's what people were doing before the last expansion draft, and that's what you were doing in your referenced paragraph above. There are multiple such definitions in the CBA, and they have specific contexts. You pointed to the context for Group V free agency, which you have to admit should make yourself laugh by your own standards. I provided the Group II example of where folks following GeneralFanager were pointing prior to the last expansion draft, which everybody found out 3 years ago turned out to be wrong as well.

My "position", which you have thus far not been able to grasp, is that there is no justifiable "position". Not one that we can take just on the basis of the CBA alone, at least. Or at least, not on the published copy that we've been sitting on for the last half dozen years - if there are published addenda or articles dealing with the expansion draft, I haven't stumbled on those and would be very happy to be pointed towards them. Or if you have found an explicit statement from the NHL front office that says something to the effect of "the definition of professional experience for the purposes of the Expansion draft shall be that corresponding to Group V Free Agency per paragraph 10.1(b)", then great, point me to that statement.

Otherwise the best I've seen to go on is the precedent set by case examples. Unless you can do a better job of losing the condescending attitude and actually dig in to providing a real answer that holds water? I'm happy to accept a convincing argument and good documented proof if you have it. It doesn't seem like you do.
 
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101st_fan

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Over the past few weeks you've provided a blog and a part of the CBA which does not define "professional season" but sets forth the conditions for Group 2 (notice what you quoted does not even use the phrase you're trying to define) ... the ability to openly negotiate at the expiration of a contract even with an qualifying offer as compared to exclusive negotiating rights if a qualifying offer is made. When I go to the CBA, you say I haven't "got onboard" with you and whomever else you think is agreeing with you. (you also made a claim that nobody said contracts would slide when people literally said they were worried about burning a year of a contract in the context of slide or not).

At least my condescending attitude is the result of speaking from knowledge of the documents and reading the comments I reply to. Yours is based on ignoring what others actually say and not getting what the very basic definitions contained within the CBA.

Quite simply, every place the NHL's documents define "professional season" it matches what I've published. You keep searching for things that simply are not there then make quite baseless accusations of poor comprehension. Laughable.

Take note of what others have said about me. I actually read this CBA, the one prior, the team's leases in the days when relocation was a threat. Cover to cover. You've offered a blog link in the past ... and it was lacking any context.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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Same as before, you are just failing to comprehend the basic argument here. I am sure a great many of us have read the CBA, and the one prior, cover to cover, I certainly have many times (not recently!), but you seem to think that having done so makes you special? Your quote did not provide any definition directly related to the published NHL statement about the expansion exemption rule, any more than mine did. Nor did the blog. Nor did the very reputable website the blog referred to. Nor has any other post, blog, CBA article or other piece of evidence entered into the discussion thus far. Does such a piece of evidence exist? I am hoping that one does. I'm sure that one must. And I'd love to see it entered into the discussion. That's all.

I'm not sure why you think your random posting here makes you more knowledgeable than the author of that random blog, whoever he is. Both of you are taking the same approach after all. Skim the CBA and find an out-of-context definition which has no direct linkage to different wording published in a different context several years after the CBA was written.

Can you re-consider your basic assumptions? Why is "professional seasons" in the context of Group V free agency the term you are choosing to pluck a definition of from the CBA? Why not "professional experience" per the Group II rule? The published NHL expansion draft blurb says neither? Or is there another blurb somewhere that states something different than "all first- and second-year professionals"? The CBA explicitly constrains the definitions of professional seasons and professional experience to the context of the paragraphs in which they are presented.

The bottom line is that none of this is relevant if we have no established linkage whatsoever between a simplified NHL summary blurb about the expansion draft and the CBA. We are debating about apples and oranges. So the joke is on both of us for wasting so much time on it. :)

I'm content with the case precedent argument such as Copp proving that 1 game is actually the right answer. And I'm certain we'll soon have even more anecdotal evidence of that answer when somebody asks Poile about it in relation to Fabbro and it gets reported on. But I have seen no published language that supports it, and certainly do not accept that definitions of different terms in different contexts in the CBA intrinsically supports it.

We've both been lazy and flippant about it in the past, which is fair enough. It's not like we're getting paid for our time.
 
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101st_fan

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Rem Pitlick now has one "professional season" under his belt but lacks "professional experience" (which truly applies towards arbitration eligibility or open negotiating upon conclusion of this contract if the Preds make a qualifying offer). Dante Fabbro has neither a "professional season" nor any "professional experience" as of today.

Neither will have an "accrued season" after 2018-19 although both will have burned through one year of their contract.

Neither is slide eligible.

Both could possibly end up with a year of "professional experience" between the Preds and Ads depending on how the postseason plays out.
 
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PredsV82

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I guess with no game until Friday there is no rush but would like to know when the Fabbro signing is official and when he will join the team
 

King Weber

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Donovan also sent down to Milwaukee, so either Fabbro's coming in, or Hamhuis is about ready to return. Either one would be nice.
 
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PredsV82

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Donovan also sent down to Milwaukee, so either Fabbro's coming in, or Hamhuis is about ready to return. Either one would be nice.


Fabbro already has said hes leaving BU and signing with Nashville so curious as to what needs "ironing out"
 

Armourboy

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I figure it's the bonuses they are working on. Also I guess it could be possible the expansion worries and how to handle that from both sides could be a discussion point as well.

That's really gotta be a tough spot for both of them tbh. Financial reasons would dictate for Fabbro you want to burn the year, but then you have expansion concerns. Same goes for the GM there.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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Fabbro already has said hes leaving BU and signing with Nashville so curious as to what needs "ironing out"
Yeah, it could be a bit nasty if they were ironing out signing the contract - but starting it in 2019-20 and ATO'ing him to Milwaukee for the rest of this year to maintain expansion exemption. Although Poile's quote about getting him into games doesn't make it sound like that. Not sure what else there would be, though. Obviously he gets ELC max and there are ample comparables for any bonuses, which wouldn't normally be very contentious.
 

King Weber

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could just be as simple as crossing T's and dotting the I's, making sure everything's okay etc.
 

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