Post-Game Talk: #13: FLYERS 5 at Kings 2, Thursday, Nov. 1, 2018, 10:30 p.m. ET

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Or that.

Actual Flyers PK unit

You have given me quite the assignment there - I will get after it in a while

 

[CSKA1974]

You have given me quite the assignment there - I will get after it in a while

Cost of being my friend LOL

 

[magnumpi]

If they are, and plan to do so with all future prospects, how will the handle the backlog of talent that will arrive over the next 2 season?

Each player is a difference case.

If a player has confidence that can be shaken they'd treat differently than someone like Provov.

If my speculation is true I don't believe they'd handle every player in the same exact manner.

 

[magnumpi]

Don't think it's that deep. When Hak feels pressure, he goes to his reliables and there is a correlation between age and reliability in his eyes. Sanheim is at the bottom of the list.

Even if what you suggest is true, last year was the year to get him acclimated to the league. This is a repeat of his rookie year. Nothing has really changed. He only gets punished for poor individual plays. There is no reward for good play. This kid is probably the most talented defenseman on the team. This is not a good development model. I would say he's the clear cut #6 but Folin and MacDonald both play more than him when they are in the lineup so....

Well all hope is lost then.

Its not completely age either because he trusts Hagg too.

He must view skill and talent as risky.

 

[landsbergfan]

Each player is a difference case.

If a player has confidence that can be shaken they'd treat differently than someone like Provov.

If my speculation is true I don't believe they'd handle every player in the same exact manner.

If by confidence you mean perception of being an "offensive" or "defensive" player then yes, that is correct

 

[magnumpi]

If by confidence you mean perception of being an "offensive" or "defensive" player then yes, that is correct

That;s not what I mean. Each person is wired differently, things affect each person differently. What may shake one person will have no affect on an another. Someone may get frustrated easily when learning something new, another person may never get frustrated,,,,,, and so on. I would assume that would influence how a coach and GM would want to handle young players.

But my theory is likely not realty so this is not worth delving into.

I probably gave them too much credit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The last two games have taught us that any level of organization, even a system that works towards a stupid goal, is far superior to the nothingness LA and Anaheim are running.


It's a nice demonstration that coaching is really important.

 

[deadhead]

Each player is a difference case.

If a player has confidence that can be shaken they'd treat differently than someone like Provov.

If my speculation is true I don't believe they'd handle every player in the same exact manner.

Sanheim has a track record of starting slow at each level, which suggests he needs time to acclimate to the faster speed and smaller windows, i.e., he's not an instinctive player who quickly adjusts to higher levels of play. This is the norm for a lot of players, they need a year or two to get comfortable at the pro level.

Someone like Provorov, even at 19, knew the proper angles to take, as he gets experience, he's become more aggressive and takes more risks, and now is learning which risks he can get away with and when to play it safe. Lindblom needed a few months in the AHL to adjust to pro speed and NA rinks, but when he came up, he was an instant starter on the 2nd line and has never looked back.

NAK is not one of our top 9 forwards, right now he's just getting adjusted to the NHL, and a road trip is tough because you don't have the practice time to get him on the same page with his teammates. But if he keeps playing a solid forechecking game, look for his minutes to gradually increase.

Different strokes for different folks, that's what good coaches are supposed to do, treat each prospect differently depending on how much they can handle. I don't care about Sanheim's minutes in October, if being cautious with him now has him ready for a bigger load in March, so be it.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Hey, Cap, I am stealing this idea from NC Flyers Fan HB poster- can you put a POG helmet on this guy:

 

[magnumpi]

Sanheim has a track record of starting slow at each level, which suggests he needs time to acclimate to the faster speed and smaller windows, i.e., he's not an instinctive player who quickly adjusts to higher levels of play. This is the norm for a lot of players, they need a year or two to get comfortable at the pro level.

Someone like Provorov, even at 19, knew the proper angles to take, as he gets experience, he's become more aggressive and takes more risks, and now is learning which risks he can get away with and when to play it safe. Lindblom needed a few months in the AHL to adjust to pro speed and NA rinks, but when he came up, he was an instant starter on the 2nd line and has never looked back.

NAK is not one of our top 9 forwards, right now he's just getting adjusted to the NHL, and a road trip is tough because you don't have the practice time to get him on the same page with his teammates. But if he keeps playing a solid forechecking game, look for his minutes to gradually increase.

Different strokes for different folks, that's what good coaches are supposed to do, treat each prospect differently depending on how much they can handle. I don't care about Sanheim's minutes in October, if being cautious with him now has him ready for a bigger load in March, so be it.

I want to believe this.
It makes logical sense.

This appeals to me because I suspect Sanheim is wired a bit like me.

Whenever I do anything new, I struggle, I get frustrated, I feel overwhelmed, I need to ask questions,

But once I get the hang of something, I really get it and then I don't want to be bothered by anyone when in the midst of doing it.

So, I understand why they would handle someone like Sanheim in this manner.

But I don't know if this is reality. Hakstol has proven to have favorites who are crap veterans.

 

[Rebels57]

Another win against a horrid team to keep Hak's job safe another day longer.

Nice to see the top players play well, even if they are only causing more pain and failure in the future by saving Haks job.

 

[CSKA1974]

 

[deadhead]

I do think the organization treats offensive oriented players differently for a number of reasons;

1) they tend to have poorer fundamentals, a highly talented offensive player (see Ghost in college) is often allowed to free lance at lower levels, and if he scores at a high rate, gets a free ride on defense - that won't fly in professional hockey.

2) they tend to handle the puck all the time at lower levels, so they're not comfortable playing off the puck. So learning what to do for long stretches of the game when you don't have the puck can be a new experience.

3) they tend to have the most raw talent among your prospects, so the upside is higher and the cost of failing to properly develop them is also higher.

Some players need more "tough love" than others, Frost and Farabee should adjust quickly (we're already seeing this with Patrick, he was held back physically last year more than mentally). But note when they sent Frost back to juniors it was with the instruction to work on his game without the puck.

Sanheim and Myers don't have Provorov's instincts, so they're being brought along slowly, the way they wanted to bring Ghost along (AHL at 21, then the NHL sometime his second season, a blown knee and injuries changed that schedule), and Ghost didn't put it all together until he was 24. Provorov at 20 scored the way you hope Sanheim and Myers will some day (15-21 36 at ES) while carrying the heaviest defensive role. The MACHINE is a freak, other young defensemen can't handle that kind of load early in their career.

Same way TK went from mistake prone inconsistent forward to maybe our best forward by the beginning of his third season, but Lindblom, once he adjusted to the NHL game, was a consistent NHL forward almost instantly. It's not just that Lindblom is older, but he learned to play a pro style game against men in the SHL, he couldn't outskate opponents, he had to have good fundamentals and out work them.

 

[Rebels57]

A healthy Flyers might end the season with:
G-Coots-TK
JVR-NP-Jake
Lindblom-Pimp-Simmonds
Raffl-Laughton-NAK

Looks beautiful

Until you look at who is standing behind them on the bench and know with certainty that if the find a way to make the Playoffs, they'll get f***ing embarassed again.

 

[landsbergfan]

That;s not what I mean. Each person is wired differently, things affect each person differently. What may shake one person will have no affect on an another. Someone may get frustrated easily when learning something new, another person may never get frustrated,,,,,, and so on. I would assume that would influence how a coach and GM would want to handle young players.

But my theory is likely not realty so this is not worth delving into.

I probably gave them too much credit.

There is without a doubt a human element that goes into it, but I don't believe that is the driving factor. There are also two sides to the story. One person may play better when leaned upon instead of worrying about being scratched for a small mistake. (i.e. Konecny going from 4th line fewest minutes on the team to 1st line tear with G/Coots)

Evidence points towards trusting safer players due to a perception of defensive skill, IMO. @VladDrag made a point this morning about how there are direct quotes from Hakstol saying though Sanheim is playing well, they don't want to increase his ice time while Weise (who cleared waivers 30 days ago) plays a couple good games and he "deserves" more ice time.

Watching Sanheim since he has been drafted, there are not many signs of a guy who is rattled easily. Mistakes are often made up for, and improved upon. His game has not changed because of mistakes or lack of confidence. He knows what he is good at, and he's starting to really show that off at the NHL level now. He should be allowed to do it more.

 

[deadhead]

Lindblom is not getting separated from Patrick again, those two have serious chemistry.
JVR will probably be paired with Weal and Simmonds.
If Vorobyev returns, it'll probably be to replace Lehtera as the 4C this year, though Rubtsov may jump ahead.
Of course, Weal could implode, but other than some stupid stick penalties, he's played much better than Vorobyev as the 3C.

Simmonds and Raffl are free agents, and I don't think either will return if NAK shows he can handle the 4RW role.
3RW will be an offseason issue, and that's where Hextall will have to make a tough decision, Allison/Laczynski, even if they're signed may not be ready to start in the NHL, there's no one else at LHV who fits the RW slot, so is it time to "let's make a deal?"

 

[magnumpi]

I do think the organization treats offensive oriented players differently for a number of reasons;

1) they tend to have poorer fundamentals, a highly talented offensive player (see Ghost in college) is often allowed to free lance at lower levels, and if he scores at a high rate, gets a free ride on defense - that won't fly in professional hockey.

2) they tend to handle the puck all the time at lower levels, so they're not comfortable playing off the puck. So learning what to do for long stretches of the game when you don't have the puck can be a new experience.

3) they tend to have the most raw talent among your prospects, so the upside is higher and the cost of failing to properly develop them is also higher.

Some players need more "tough love" than others, Frost and Farabee should adjust quickly (we're already seeing this with Patrick, he was held back physically last year more than mentally). But note when they sent Frost back to juniors it was with the instruction to work on his game without the puck.

Sanheim and Myers don't have Provorov's instincts, so they're being brought along slowly, the way they wanted to bring Ghost along (AHL at 21, then the NHL sometime his second season, a blown knee and injuries changed that schedule), and Ghost didn't put it all together until he was 24. Provorov at 20 scored the way you hope Sanheim and Myers will some day (15-21 36 at ES) while carrying the heaviest defensive role. The MACHINE is a freak, other young defensemen can't handle that kind of load early in their career.

Same way TK went from mistake prone inconsistent forward to maybe our best forward by the beginning of his third season, but Lindblom, once he adjusted to the NHL game, was a consistent NHL forward almost instantly. It's not just that Lindblom is older, but he learned to play a pro style game against men in the SHL, he couldn't outskate opponents, he had to have good fundamentals and out work them.

If this is realty then I don't have a problem with what they're doing.

Personally, I don't know one way or the other whether your hypothesis is accurate or not so I'm not going to slam you like other people.

At the same time, I don't like Hakstol.
And I do believe he has a tendency to favor players without talent or skill ie weisse, manning....... etc.
So, in the long run I don't want him coaching these young players.

 

[Appleyard]

I would re-sign Raffl for another ~2 years if he only asks for ~2m. Not going to get a better non-ELC NHL player for his role for that money... even with kids coming. Can always trade him for a pick if someone does.

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Lindblom - Patrick - Voracek
van Riemsdyk - Frost - Aube-Kubel
Laughton - Vorobyev - Raffl

For next season.

Partially because of the guys in the AHL right now I only see Kase and Rubtsov as being NHLers with higher that 4th line upside realistically.

And apart from Frost I cannot see any guys coming from CHL/College and easily winning a spot.

Allison and Laczynski have the best chance I believe to play in the NHL straight away if they sign... but I doubt they will.

Ratcliffe is talented but will v.likely need an AHL season... and Farabee will likely still be in College.

 

[Lindberg]

The Flyers managed to beat two bad teams on the road. Anaheim was terrible and they came close to a tie or loss. The Kings game was a better performance but their PP is awful. Good win for the team but the coaching staff still needs to go.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That;s not what I mean. Each person is wired differently, things affect each person differently. What may shake one person will have no affect on an another. Someone may get frustrated easily when learning something new, another person may never get frustrated,,,,,, and so on. I would assume that would influence how a coach and GM would want to handle young players.

But my theory is likely not realty so this is not worth delving into.

I probably gave them too much credit.

I actually agree with your overarching point here.

Sanheim has been a guy who needs time to adjust too, so let's not completely dismiss the idea. It's the same thing those of us who watched him quite a bit in Calgary were saying in regard to the WJCs -- that's not an environment or a coaching staff conducive to high expectations for him specifically. I would disagree with the conclusions they came up with, but would also have less of a problem with it if this were the mentality. He doesn't get rattled. He has an adjustment period. More evidence of why it should have been last year, but etc.

As you said, the problem comes in the context. This staff hasn't shown that kind of emotional awareness or really competency in handling players. They just have their priorities and their minds made up.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

1) they tend to have poorer fundamentals, a highly talented offensive player (see Ghost in college) is often allowed to free lance at lower levels, and if he scores at a high rate, gets a free ride on defense - that won't fly in professional hockey..

So then do your job as a coaching staff. Why does that necessitate being harder on someone? If you need to cut ice time to motivate the player into doing this, how is this anything other than a coaching failure short of the player causing a real issue on his/her own?

 

[Curufinwe]

I would re-sign Raffl for another ~2 years if he only asks for ~2m. Not going to get a better non-ELC NHL player for his role for that money... even with kids coming. Can always trade him for a pick if someone does.

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Lindblom - Patrick - Voracek
van Riemsdyk - Frost - Aube-Kubel
Laughton - Vorobyev - Raffl

For next season.

Partially because of the guys in the AHL right now I only see Kase and Rubtsov as being NHLers with higher that 4th line upside realistically.

And apart from Frost I cannot see any guys coming from CHL/College and easily winning a spot.

Allison and Laczynski have the best chance I believe to play in the NHL straight away if they sign... but I doubt they will.

Ratcliffe is talented but will v.likely need an AHL season... and Farabee will likely still be in College.

There's also Weise who will still be hanging around for another year. Shame we can't flip his contract with Raffl's.

Hextall should know by April whether Allison and Laczynski will be signing their ELCs and can plan accordingly.

I agree that Farabee (and JOB) will probably play two years in college.

 

[AndHeMissedTheNet]

Lesson learned from last night's game: if there's any type of team that these guys can hang with, it's a team that's being run by the same sort of dinosaurs as them.

 

[tictactoe]

The Flyers managed to beat two bad teams on the road. Anaheim was terrible and they came close to a tie or loss. The Kings came was a better performance but their PP is awful. Good win for the team but the coaching staff still needs to go.

So if Flyers will lose to SJ and they probably will, what does it tell you?

 

[FlyersMania2]

Didn’t watch the last two and we won both. Hakstol just extended his stay