Post-Game Talk: #13: FLYERS 5 at Kings 2, Thursday, Nov. 1, 2018, 10:30 p.m. ET

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
89,594
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Pennsylvania
As always, appreciate the response. I do want Sanheim to play more, and I agree about current coaching staff qualities. And yes, most likely they will not lead this team to the promised land, however, I refuse cheering for the losses and bad plays to get them fired.
The reasons:
a) in a big scheme of things hockey is just an entertainment for me- distraction from everyday routine. Would I want them to win a SC? absolutely! Would I like to seat through painful losses, so that a better coach gets hired? Absolutely not. There are only few coaches that are capable of winning the ultimate prize and everything (system, players, chemistry) must fall in place for that. That decreases a probability of stellar hire by much. Keenan,Lavy, Hitch proved their ability to win the SC, they just were not able to do it here (although, Lavy came very close).
b) hockey is a customer facing and a customer driven business. I stopped buying merchandise and has not renewed my partial season ticket due to a poor product quality. I made it known to my ticket representative. But, I am still rooting for the team to win, for the players to show their skills, and I still need positive emotions out of my most favorite sport and team.
Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Like I said, I'm not rooting for losses either, I just see the unfortunate value in them and Hakstol is taking some of the fun out of winning. So really I'm getting closer to indifferent than anything, but I definitely still want them to win.
 
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CSKA1974

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
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Yawn!

When all teams wait until the last day of the regular season to clinch their playoffs spots, come back at me.

kings_m5hjlhpd.jpg
 

Garbage Goal

Registered User
Apr 1, 2009
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There's over a 100 years of hockey, I doubt if you look up the percentage of teams that take that long to clinch a playoff spot winning the Cup that they're very good. Probably barely any actually, even if you broaden it to 8th seeds instead of the specific date of clinching.

There's over 100 years of the NHL. You can find an exception for pretty much anything, doesn't mean something is conducive to success.
 

CSKA1974

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There's over a 100 years of hockey, I doubt if you look up the percentage of teams that take that long to clinch a playoff spot winning the Cup that they're very good. Probably barely any actually, even if you broaden it to 8th seeds instead of the specific date of clinching.

There's over 100 years of the NHL. You can find an exception for pretty much anything, doesn't mean something is conducive to success.
GG, I am not arguing your point, I am sure you are statistically correct. By the same token, how many President's Trophy winners ended up winning it all. Additionally, how many times in Flyers history they clinched playoff on the last game except for 2010?
Flyers are a mediocre team right now and should be evaluated as a mediocre team. And since slightly less than 60% of the teams make playoffs, it's quite feasible for a mediocre team to clinch on the last day.
Having said all of that, once the team reaches PO- "even a blind squirrel...."
 

LegionOfDoom91

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Jan 25, 2013
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There's over a 100 years of hockey, I doubt if you look up the percentage of teams that take that long to clinch a playoff spot winning the Cup that they're very good. Probably barely any actually, even if you broaden it to 8th seeds instead of the specific date of clinching.

There's over 100 years of the NHL. You can find an exception for pretty much anything, doesn't mean something is conducive to success.

LA is the only 8th seed to ever win it all. They weren’t your typical 8th seed caliber roster though.

Edmonton coming out of the lockout as an 8th seed that year reaching the finals more so aligns with a Cinderella tale.
 

CSKA1974

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Feb 10, 2010
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Hell, that could've been the 2010 Flyers as well. One team winning the Cup, isn't the same as all teams qualifying on the last day. This is an answer to a different question. But you were saying?
please see my response to GG above (post # 184)
 

hatcher

Registered User
Sep 30, 2007
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LA is the only 8th seed to ever win it all. They weren’t your typical 8th seed caliber roster though.

Edmonton coming out of the lockout as an 8th seed that year reaching the finals more so aligns with a Cinderella tale.
They were so much better though same with our flyers when we went all the way. Great next year and a great year with Jagr. Just be in the playoffs and you got a chance if you hasve players that can get it done.
 

Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
Apr 19, 2016
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please see my response to GG above (post # 184)
The Flyers are being judged harsher than a mediocre team, because they present themselves as a team that should live up to better expectations than that. The hubris of the franchise (GM & HC), combined with the historic attitudes (mainly attributed to the deceased Snider) give this club a larger burden to bear than say, the Florida Panthers or Carolina Hurricanes. The fans expect and demand more than mediocre. There was a brief moment when it was expected the Flyers would be, sub-optimal. However, when Hextall says it won't take five years to be competitive, and then around year 4 he has a quote saying it's really year 2 because the first two shouldn't count- that's bs. Are the Flyers going to refund ticket purchases from those first two years? Because they didn't count, of course. The Flyers are on paper, better than where they were five years ago. But as far as an on-ice product goes, they are at the same place, fighting hard to be a has-been in the post-season.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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It was pretty obvious that it was a 5-7 year rebuild when Hextall started, it's just that this franchise and its fans (like most Americans) are adverse to reality.
The big mistake was not blowing it up completely and lowering expectations. But the goal was always to build a championship level club, not a playoff team.

When Hextall traded Schenn for draft picks instead of NHL ready prospects in the summer of 2017 (such as say Kyrou, Dunn, Barbashyov and/or Sandford) he was clearly stating the rebuild had 3 more years to go. Because he was trading a 26 year old 20+ goal scorer for players who wouldn't be in the lineup until 2019-20 and 2020-21. He went for long-term upside (and exemption from the ED) over immediate help. The emergence of TK and lucking into the #2 pick made Schenn expendable, since he was going to be the 3C or 3RW by this season unless Voracek was traded.

Adding JVR last summer replaced Schenn's output with a player 2 years older a year later. But didn't change the message sent by the original deal.

Now we're getting to the point where Hextall should be trading prospects/picks for YOUNG NHL ready players (patch with older FAs on short-term deals, which is what he tried with Stastny last summer, and Folin). My priority would be a sharpshooting RW to balance the lines. But given that Frost, Myers, Rubtsov, Morin, Friedman, Vorobyev, NAK (already up) are almost certain bets to make the 2019-20 roster, I can't see a lot of moves being made. Even with Simmonds, Raffl, AMac and Folin gone, it's going to be a crowded roster.
 

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
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Prospects like Kyrou typically aren't made available. Taking that as evidence Hextall didnt target them seems like quite the logical jump. Likewise there was a spot and a need for Dunn on the NHL roster. The others are fine, but not a centerpiece for Schenn. Picks were the logical starting point, as they usually are in those types of trades.

I also sure as hell wouldn't label that list NHL ready given the glacial path this org favors for most.

I'm not buying the idea that Simmonds is traded unless they're way out of a playoff spot. Expectations are clearly high this year.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Hextall won't be in a rush to trade Simmonds because there isn't much to gain. Schenn, a cost controlled 26 year old forward basically garnered #27 and probably a 2nd if the Flyers don't take Lehtera as a salary dump. Simmonds, a 31 year old declining forward in a contract year might get you a 2nd and a 2nd tier prospect (young 3RW). If that's all you're gonna get, there's no urgency to make a move.

Hextall had Frost targeted, but probably expected a pick in the mid-20s in the 2018 draft (which is why St Louis was willing to give up that pick for cap relief). Players picked that late usually take 3-4 years (2 junior, 1+ AHL) to make the NHL. So he probably saw Frost as 2019 at the earliest and the other pick in 2021-22 - Flyers lucked out when St Louis imploded and they got Farabee.
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
Oct 5, 2013
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Hextall won't be in a rush to trade Simmonds because there isn't much to gain. Schenn, a cost controlled 26 year old forward basically garnered #27 and probably a 2nd if the Flyers don't take Lehtera as a salary dump. Simmonds, a 31 year old declining forward in a contract year might get you a 2nd and a 2nd tier prospect (young 3RW). If that's all you're gonna get, there's no urgency to make a move.

Hextall had Frost targeted, but probably expected a pick in the mid-20s in the 2018 draft (which is why St Louis was willing to give up that pick for cap relief). Players picked that late usually take 3-4 years (2 junior, 1+ AHL) to make the NHL. So he probably saw Frost as 2019 at the earliest and the other pick in 2021-22 - Flyers lucked out when St Louis imploded and they got Farabee.

Typically players return more at the TDL than the draft. Teams have a good idea on the hole they need to fill and if they need a boost to their PP I'm sure Simmonds would be on a team's mind. He's probably a 3rd line even strength player (the flyers struggle at ES so I won't put it all on him) and I suppose he's a decent PKer. I'm sure the Flyers could add some picks / prospects and get that 1st and decent prospect back.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Last year trade deadline:

Maroon - 3rd rd pick plus Dudek
McDonagh & Miller - Namestnikov, Howden (#27-16), Hajek (#37-16), 1st and cond 2nd
Tatar - 2018 1st, 2019 2nd, 2021 3rd [then flipped with Suzuki (#13-17) and 2019 2nd rd pick for Pacioretty, so 2 1sts, 2 2nds, a 3rd for Pacioretty]
Vanek - Tyler Motte and Jussi Joniken (salary dump)
E Kane - cond 1st, cond 4th, O'Regan
Stastny - 1st, 4th, Erik Foley
Ian Cole - 3rd, Nick Moutrey
Rick Nash - 1st, Ryan Spooner, Matt Beleskey, Ryan Lindgren (#49-16)

Simmonds will garner less than E Kane or Stastny, a late 1st at best, more likely a 2nd and 4th, maybe a 3rd line potential prospect.
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
Oct 5, 2013
7,158
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Simmonds will garner less than E Kane or Stastny, a late 1st at best, more likely a 2nd and 4th, maybe a 3rd line potential prospect.

E. Kane will always have a black spot on value due to his character issues that have followed him.

Simmonds probably has more intangibles than the list of those players so his value is propped up a bit.
 

LegionOfDoom91

Registered User
Jan 25, 2013
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They were so much better though same with our flyers when we went all the way. Great next year and a great year with Jagr. Just be in the playoffs and you got a chance if you hasve players that can get it done.

Edmonton didn’t have a championship caliber roster that year. They played above their abilities. The whole get in thing is still largely a myth though as higher seeds have typically made the finals & won the cup since the lockout.

2006 - #2 Carolina vs. #8 Edmonton
2007 - #4 Ottawa vs. #2 Anaheim
2008 - #2 Pittsburgh vs. #1 Detroit
2009 - #4 Pittsburgh vs. #2 Detroit
2010 - #7 Philadelphia vs. #2 Chicago
2011 - #3 Boston vs. #1 Vancouver
2012 - #6 New Jersey vs. #8 Los Angeles
2013 - #4 Boston vs. #1 Chicago
2014 - #5 New York vs. #6 Los Angeles
2015 - #2 Tampa Bay vs. #4 Chicago
2016 - #3 Pittsburgh vs. #6 San Jose
2017 - #3 Pittsburgh vs. #8 Nashville
2018 - #2 Washington vs. #2 Vegas

It’s not NBA bad but it’s not even close to some free for all that hockey fans like to think it is either.
 
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