Post-Game Talk: #13: FLYERS 5 at Kings 2, Thursday, Nov. 1, 2018, 10:30 p.m. ET

[CSKA1974]

Coming to the post way late, but for heck of it.

That was a much better game than I anticipated. Still unsure if this is just tallest midget stuff, or if the team is finally starting to play well.

NAK was good. Defense didn't embarrass itself (aside from the PK). For the Ghost doubters he played a very sound game, there was a sequence he took Kopitar's lunch money. Hagg is an *******, I had predicted 4-2, and he made it 5-2- LoL at Stevens for pulling the goalie at the 3+minute mark. Did he really expect his team to pot two goals in that time span without surrending an EN? Kings had some infrequent flashes, but even with an extra man, that's such an ask on a team to preform at such a high level for the duration. You gotta think the stars are gonna over stay their shifts and run on adrenaline, average shift is ~45 seconds, so a double is 1:30, and asking them to quadruple a regular shift (for the non-Doughty players) is near insanity, that's such a toll. I don't like Hak, nor do I want Stevens back. Still, good on ya Hagg, jerk, kudos.

This team still looks like they're going to miss the playoffs. Leading the division in games played, and only being 1 point ahead of the 8th place team, ruff.

Still, wins are better than losses, except when it's after the TDL and the obvious is pretty blatant.

They might, but they have only played 15% of their season. I think it's a bit premature to bury them.

 

[Ruck Over]

They might, but they have only played 15% of their season. I think it's a bit premature to bury them.

It is premature, for sure. But when this team needs to struggle at the end of the year to qualify for playoffs on their last day of the season, dropped points in October count just as much as clinching points in April.

It doesn't matter when they shit the bed, beginning, middle, or end of the season. They shouldn't do it at all, full stop.

 

[deadhead]

Bad goalies are underrated, murdered us to start the season, has killed the Blues for two years now, may bury the Kings.

At least with the way Elliott is playing now, they have a chance most games, but when your goalie is giving up an easy goal or two in the first couple periods, that's digging a deep hole.
JVR should be back in 2-3 weeks, Raffl in December, Folin is playing solid, this lineup may jell for a run like last year if Elliott and Neuvirth/Lyon can provide decent (not great, just not Mrazek putric) goaltending.

By February or so, the AHL kids should have enough games under their belt to push starters and fill in in case of more injuries.

I wouldn't write off the season just yet.
But they have to keep winning, one of the next two then 4 of the next 5 at home.

 

[deadhead]

It is premature, for sure. But when this team needs to struggle at the end of the year to qualify for playoffs on their last day of the season, dropped points in October count just as much as clinching points in April.

It doesn't matter when they **** the bed, beginning, middle, or end of the season. They shouldn't do it at all, full stop.

ALMOST ALL teams do it, some teams start hot, hit a lull, some times are up and down all seasons, some teams start slow and finish strong. Having to win in March to make the playoffs isn't the worst thing in the world, either you've improved and are positioned to make a playoff push or you miss out and get a better draft position.

 

[Ruck Over]

ALMOST ALL teams do it, some teams start hot, hit a lull, some times are up and down all seasons, some teams start slow and finish strong. Having to win in March to make the playoffs isn't the worst thing in the world, either you've improved and are positioned to make a playoff push or you miss out and get a better draft position.

Yawn!

When all teams wait until the last day of the regular season to clinch their playoffs spots, come back at me.

 

[deadhead]

Of course Nashville got to the finals off a 94 point season in 2016-17 because the West only had 8 decent teams.
So they didn't have to squeeze in. And got a lot of cheap points playing weak teams in their Conference.

You can't control how your conference will end up (sometimes your competitors go belly up) or injuries.
But 98 points is nothing to sneeze at, just happened there were 9 decent teams in the East instead of 7.
In the West, Avs made it with 95.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bad goalies are underrated, murdered us to start the season, has killed the Blues for two years now, may bury the Kings.

At least with the way Elliott is playing now, they have a chance most games, but when your goalie is giving up an easy goal or two in the first couple periods, that's digging a deep hole.
JVR should be back in 2-3 weeks, Raffl in December, Folin is playing solid, this lineup may jell for a run like last year if Elliott and Neuvirth/Lyon can provide decent (not great, just not Mrazek putric) goaltending.

By February or so, the AHL kids should have enough games under their belt to push starters and fill in in case of more injuries.

I wouldn't write off the season just yet.
But they have to keep winning, one of the next two then 4 of the next 5 at home.

If your goalie is problematic, playing a terrible system in front of them only aggravates the issue.

There really isn't any flaw that isn't aggravated by incompetent coaching.

 

[deadhead]

Yes, we know your opinion, but do you have anything constructive to contribute.
Like how to teach Voracek how to shoot a puck?

 

[Striiker]

As a key part of the honest discussion, I reserve the right to agree to disagree with you. On your first statement, I fail to draw a strong causation between Sanheim's ice time and outcomes that we all want the team to achieve.
Again, as I stated many times and lately to the Cap- coaching matters, I disagree with a lot of decisions this coach has made, but for me firing him is not a primary outcome of the season. And that was my point.
Lastly, in my opinion, you compare apple to oranges with DUI. DUI is an individual decision and an individual activity, it takes more than one person to play hockey. It's more like driving a school bus with rowdy children. Very few "drivers" in the country are capable of maintaining order on the bus and get it to the destination first in competition with 30 other buses. And no one is rooting for the bus driver to crash, so he/she can be fired .
I know you and I have been and can share opinions bluntly, and I always appreciate your responses.

Well first off I think there was a miscommunication about the drunk driving example.

I only meant to illustrate: "Bad action + good result =/= acceptable view of the action". Further than that, I know the situations aren't comparable, I was just saying why the favorable result of a win wouldn't stop the complaints about the actions people disagree with. He did something dumb... even if it didn't hurt us this time, it'll hurt us in the future if (when) he continues to do it. So I'm more mad that he drove drunk than I'm happy he got home safe.

Now, if you don't see Hakstol himself, and his actions like the handling of Sanheim, as as large of a problem as others do, that's perfectly fine. Obviously I disagree, I think he's a monumental problem that's bad enough to leave all good results in it's shadow, but if you don't then we can absolutely just agree to disagree. At this point, I think he's a big enough problem that his firing is the best and most important possible outcome of this season (since I don't see a Cup win as a possible outcome at all). So every game that gets us closer to that goal is something I can tolerate, even if that comes in the form a miserable loss. One step backwards, two steps forwards, basically. I'm not rooting for losses, but I see the value in them.

So, while I wasn't one of them, I can understand the mindset of the people who are more annoyed by his actions than happy by the result of this one game, leading to the negative post game thread even after a win. That's all I was trying to explain, the mentality of those people. We, like I said, can agree to disagree here (despite the constant claims from some posters that I can't tolerate people disagreeing with me That's only because of how and why they disagree, not the fact that they do.). There's nothing wrong with you or anyone else enjoying a win... I just wish we didn't have this dark cloud hovering over every every game so I could enjoy winning as much as I used to. It just feels like every win could be saving his job, little by little, and lead to him sticking around another year, which would be the worst possible outcome, in my opinion.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes, we know your opinion, but do you have anything constructive to contribute.
Like how to teach Voracek how to shoot a puck?

Why? Voracek is a playmaker. If the coach is trying to use him as a finisher then the coach is misusing his roster.


That should be JVR's job, if Hakstol will let him play his style.

 

[Striiker]

Imagine watching this team and thinking VORACEK is a problem.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Imagine watching this team and thinking VORACEK is a problem.

If only we had a guy who can shoot, plays RW, and is routinely underplayed in favor of inferior players. Imagine it.


Imagine if his name were something like Gravis Gonecny.

 

[deadhead]

Yes, we should play him more minutes and the RW who can't shoot fewer minutes.

 

[Striiker]

If only we had a guy who can shoot, plays RW, and is routinely underplayed in favor of inferior players. Imagine it.


Imagine if his name were something like Gravis Gonecny.

Just so long as he’s heavy. I don’t care how good a player is if he’s not morbidly obese.

 

[baudib1]

The issue is Sanheim is a solid No. 3 with upside who also has the skills to play both special teams and he is being used like a No. 6, less time than Folin, who no one thinks is anything more than a solid 6/7.

Weise/Lehtera are 14/15 forwards who are being used regularly and getting too much ice time. Both are worse than NAK, who is a legit NHL player and ironically has all of the grit and toughness that this coaching staff overvalues, but he's too young to get a serious role.

Splitting up Ghost and Provorov isn't optimal either.

The win was nice, but getting excited over results rather the process is a mistake. There are real-life consequences to making dozens of mistakes regarding personnel and deployment in each game.

 

[Striiker]

Regardless of what anyone wants to label Sanheim, over the last 5 or so games he’s pretty easily been our best defensemen. Good defensively and consistently dangerous/creative offensively.

Truly living proof that performances has no effect on usage. Completely indisputable.

 

[onlylordsvsmorebp]

Just so long as he’s heavy. I don’t care how good a player is if he’s not morbidly obese.

ILL HAVE THE "FAT SLOB" COMBO...QUADRUPLE BURGER W/CHEESE, SUPERSIZE FRIES AND TRIPLE THICK SHAKE WITH EXTRA WHIP CREAM PLEEZ. MMMMM BEEF. YUM YUM YUMMY.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

That;s not what I mean. Each person is wired differently, things affect each person differently. What may shake one person will have no affect on an another. Someone may get frustrated easily when learning something new, another person may never get frustrated,,,,,, and so on. I would assume that would influence how a coach and GM would want to handle young players.

But my theory is likely not realty so this is not worth delving into.

I probably gave them too much credit.

Considering he players and coach have talked about how poor Haks communications skills are I doubt he is having any deep convos with Travis about his feelings. Haha

 

[baudib1]

If you had to win a game right now, would you take Matt Carle at his best or Sanheim right now? Pretty sure I'd take Sanheim and it's not really close. I'd even take Sanheim/Gudas over Carle/Coburn.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Meme fail. Vader doesn't say 'Luke'. He says 'No'.

/nerdgasm

We all know.

Don't be that guy.

 

[deadhead]

The issue is Sanheim is a solid No. 3 with upside who also has the skills to play both special teams and he is being used like a No. 6, less time than Folin, who no one thinks is anything more than a solid 6/7.

Weise/Lehtera are 14/15 forwards who are being used regularly and getting too much ice time. Both are worse than NAK, who is a legit NHL player and ironically has all of the grit and toughness that this coaching staff overvalues, but he's too young to get a serious role.

Splitting up Ghost and Provorov isn't optimal either.

The win was nice, but getting excited over results rather the process is a mistake. There are real-life consequences to making dozens of mistakes regarding personnel and deployment in each game.

How do you know NAK is a legitimate NHL player?
Let's see a few weeks from now whether NAK becomes a solid starter or another Vorobyev, headed back to LHV for more seasoning.
Sometimes people project their hopes onto players before they perform.

Spitting up Ghost and Provorov was optimal at the time, they had a horrible start to the season, at some point they'll be reunited.

Sanheim is being sheltered for good reason, opposing coaches can see that he can be physically manhandled and pressured into mistakes, that's why he averaged 2 more minutes at home than on the road last year. He's not a solid #3 at this point, at times he plays like one, at times he can be flustered, and he's still physically undeveloped (i.e. given his high center of gravity). Given time he'll settle into the role, but why rush him?

 

[baudib1]

NAK is an NHL player because 20-22-year-olds who do what he did in the AHL and have the physicality to play on a grinding line in the NHL are NHL players. There basically aren't any exceptions to this, and Appleyard says he was ready last year. Keep in mind the standard for "NHL player" on this team is Lehtera/Weise/MacDonald.

Sanheim is literally a No. 3 right now, he's easily the third-best D on the Flyers. That doesn't mean he's perfect. He's a more positive force on the ice than Gudas/Mac/Folin/Hagg and has arguably been the team's best D so far this year.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

If you ask me, the silver lining is that our D-corps is falling together pretty much as planned.

Provy a #1
Ghost a #2 (but could be 1)
Sanheim #3
Hagg #5/6 (which is great since our 2nds usually BLOW and never seen consistent time in the NHL)
Morin TBD
Myers TBD
Gudas #4/5 (but will be traded eventually I'm sure)

Heck, if Provy has an "off" season, it may make him cheaper to re-sign.

Silver linings to problems we already know exist (usage of some of these players, Hak being an idiot, etc.)

 

[BrindamoursNose]

If you ask me, the silver lining is that our D-corps is falling together pretty much as planned.

Provy a #1
Ghost a #2 (but could be 1)
Sanheim #3
Hagg #5/6 (which is great since our 2nds usually BLOW and never seen consistent time in the NHL)
Morin TBD
Myers TBD
Gudas #4/5 (but will be traded eventually I'm sure)

Heck, if Provy has an "off" season, it may make him cheaper to re-sign.

Silver linings to problems we already know exist (usage of some of these players, Hak being an idiot, etc.)

 

[CSKA1974]

Well first off I think there was a miscommunication about the drunk driving example.

I only meant to illustrate: "Bad action + good result =/= acceptable view of the action". Further than that, I know the situations aren't comparable, I was just saying why the favorable result of a win wouldn't stop the complaints about the actions people disagree with. He did something dumb... even if it didn't hurt us this time, it'll hurt us in the future if (when) he continues to do it. So I'm more mad that he drove drunk than I'm happy he got home safe.

Now, if you don't see Hakstol himself, and his actions like the handling of Sanheim, as as large of a problem as others do, that's perfectly fine. Obviously I disagree, I think he's a monumental problem that's bad enough to leave all good results in it's shadow, but if you don't then we can absolutely just agree to disagree. At this point, I think he's a big enough problem that his firing is the best and most important possible outcome of this season (since I don't see a Cup win as a possible outcome at all). So every game that gets us closer to that goal is something I can tolerate, even if that comes in the form a miserable loss. One step backwards, two steps forwards, basically. I'm not rooting for losses, but I see the value in them.

So, while I wasn't one of them, I can understand the mindset of the people who are more annoyed by his actions than happy by the result of this one game, leading to the negative post game thread even after a win. That's all I was trying to explain, the mentality of those people. We, like I said, can agree to disagree here (despite the constant claims from some posters that I can't tolerate people disagreeing with me That's only because of how and why they disagree, not the fact that they do.). There's nothing wrong with you or anyone else enjoying a win... I just wish we didn't have this dark cloud hovering over every every game so I could enjoy winning as much as I used to. It just feels like every win could be saving his job, little by little, and lead to him sticking around another year, which would be the worst possible outcome, in my opinion.

As always, appreciate the response. I do want Sanheim to play more, and I agree about current coaching staff qualities. And yes, most likely they will not lead this team to the promised land, however, I refuse cheering for the losses and bad plays to get them fired.
The reasons:
a) in a big scheme of things hockey is just an entertainment for me- distraction from everyday routine. Would I want them to win a SC? absolutely! Would I like to seat through painful losses, so that a better coach gets hired? Absolutely not. There are only few coaches that are capable of winning the ultimate prize and everything (system, players, chemistry) must fall in place for that. That decreases a probability of stellar hire by much. Keenan,Lavy, Hitch proved their ability to win the SC, they just were not able to do it here (although, Lavy came very close).
b) hockey is a customer facing and a customer driven business. I stopped buying merchandise and has not renewed my partial season ticket due to a poor product quality. I made it known to my ticket representative. But, I am still rooting for the team to win, for the players to show their skills, and I still need positive emotions out of my most favorite sport and team.