Speculation: Райан О'Рейли: In Soviet Ontario Offer Sheets Sign You; Rayan's 3rd Thread

[AvsWraith]

Wrong thread.

 

[Foppa2118]

Haha, me too. I got to stop posting.

Didn't we used to have the delete post option a few years ago? Why'd that get taken away?

 

[Pokecheque]

How exactly have the avs built the identity of the team around him?

Your logic would dictate that, if this were true, they would never have played hard ball with him. This team is CLEARLY building around Varlamov, Duchene, and EJ.

I agree that ROR is an important part of the team. But regardless of how you try to convince me, he's not the difference between this team moving forward or not. Between the draft and the possible trades, ROR is replaceable in terms of what this team lacks. If you put a healthy Landeskog and Downie in this lineup, the difference would probably be night and day, with or without ROR.

The avs can easily go and get a 3rd line center with defensive responsibilities. That player just more than likely wont have as good offense as ROR. And really? Who cares? I would absolutely not allow a player, who, for not one season, would have only been offered half of what hes already been offered to stay. Because lets face it. IF last season, Duchene didnt crap the bed, ROR doesnt get his minutes, and puts up nowhere near what he did. His contract offer would probably be in the 2M range.

Its one thing to fight tooth and nail to get a contract you think you earned. But clearly, once youve missed 10 games, and management isnt likely to budge on the contract terms, what exactly are you accomplishing other than harming your image and your career as an NHLer?

And no, just because ROR is dealt, does not mean the rebuild is restarting. It would all depend on who's coming back the other way.

Seems to me they've tried very hard to get bigger, stronger, grittier, and more defensive at the expense of speed and scoring ability. Yeah, Parenteau was a step in the other direction, but I don't see how it's so abundantly clear to you that the Avs are building around EJ, Varly, and Duchene...but not O'Reilly.

Oh really? The Avs can go and get a 3rd line center easily? Like they did with Arnason, Shantz, and the revolving door of third line centers we've had to suffer through between the time Yelle was dealt and O'Reilly was drafted? No, defensive centers don't grow on trees. Well, they do, but truly good ones don't. You may not care about that. I do.

I'm not gonna sit here and say O'Reilly is taking a wise course of action. Even I at this stage have to say he's being a tad stupid. But fans who say the Avs are doing absolutely noting wrong here are kidding themselves. They're hurting themselves long-term if they think they can rebuild without O'Reilly. They've already invested a lot in the kid. They need to invest a little more.

 

[Pokecheque]

Out of curiosity...where does the hatred of Dion come from?

I know Phaneuf is overpaid...what top pairing dman not on an ELC isn't? I just thought that as a huge minute eating right shooting dman that he would be a significant upgrade to our top d unit. The guy is logging 27+ minutes a night right now. That would push Wilson down to playing with Hejda and then keep ROB, Hunwick and Zannon on the bottom pairing and hopefully get Barrie back to LEM for some major minutes on ice.

Here are my thoughts on the guy, just my opinion, can't speak for anyone else:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59476003&postcount=71

I remember someone else saying Phaneuf as of yet has yet to prove he's not just another Bryan McCabe. I'd actually take McCabe in a heartbeat over Phaneuf. Unlike the Dion, McCabe at least had an understanding of what he could and couldn't do.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Seems to me they've tried very hard to get bigger, stronger, grittier, and more defensive at the expense of speed and scoring ability. Yeah, Parenteau was a step in the other direction, but I don't see how it's so abundantly clear to you that the Avs are building around EJ, Varly, and Duchene...but not O'Reilly.

Oh really? The Avs can go and get a 3rd line center easily? Like they did with Arnason, Shantz, and the revolving door of third line centers we've had to suffer through between the time Yelle was dealt and O'Reilly was drafted? No, defensive centers don't grow on trees. Well, they do, but truly good ones don't. You may not care about that. I do.

I'm not gonna sit here and say O'Reilly is taking a wise course of action. Even I at this stage have to say he's being a tad stupid. But fans who say the Avs are doing absolutely noting wrong here are kidding themselves. They're hurting themselves long-term if they think they can rebuild without O'Reilly. They've already invested a lot in the kid. They need to invest a little more.

Rrrright. So the player they're building around is the one they're playing hardball with in contract negotiations... The player who, its been implied, management does not want to give more money to than duchene.

It's painfully clear through the Avs negotiation that he clearly isn't as important to them as you seem to say he is.

The fact is, the Avs can go and sign or trade for a defensive center. Will they get a selke type center, no. But you just need serviceable. I do care about having a solid defensive 3 rd center. What I don't want is a petulant child slapping the table for more money and who, more and more, appears he does not want to be here.

Difficult to get a defensive center? Have you looked at the USA list for next year. There's a whole slew of centers who can come in, play PK and be strong on the dot.

Who says the Avs aren't at all in the wrong? I certainly didnt. But IMO they are less in the wrong than ROR. The Avs aren't only looking out for ROR, they have a necessity to look out for the managing of their roster. rOR is only looking out for himself because he feels 7M over 2 yrs isn't enough for him.

 

[Pokecheque]

Rrrright. So the player they're building around is the one they're playing hardball with in contract negotiations... The player who, its been implied, management does not want to give more money to than duchene.

It's painfully clear through the Avs negotiation that he clearly isn't as important to them as you seem to say he is.

This holdout has obviously caught everyone by surprise, including them. I don't think they suddenly decided this offseason they're not going to build around O'Reilly because he didn't accept either one of their offers. If they had already decided this, he'd be long gone by now.

And he most certainly is important to them. If they're too proud/stupid to admit it, well, that's nothing new.

The fact is, the Avs can go and sign or trade for a defensive center. Will they get a selke type center, no. But you just need serviceable. I do care about having a solid defensive 3 rd center. What I don't want is a petulant child slapping the table for more money and who, more and more, appears he does not want to be here.

You make it sound so easy, but recent history proves the Avs have struggled mightily to fill that 3rd line center spot.

Difficult to get a defensive center? Have you looked at the USA list for next year. There's a whole slew of centers who can come in, play PK and be strong on the dot.

Yup, and most all of them will deliver less bang for the buck than O'Reilly. The Avs will have to pay market value for those players, and so there's a very good chance they'll have to overpay.

Who says the Avs aren't at all in the wrong? I certainly didnt. But IMO they are less in the wrong than ROR. The Avs aren't only looking out for ROR, they have a necessity to look out for the managing of their roster. rOR is only looking out for himself because he feels 7M over 2 yrs isn't enough for him.

I won't lie...this flies right in the face of O'Reilly's rep. No matter what happens from here on out, that rep has taken a serious blow, and he has no one but himself to blame for that.

 

[EdAVSfan]

This holdout has obviously caught everyone by surprise, including them. I don't think they suddenly decided this offseason they're not going to build around O'Reilly because he didn't accept either one of their offers. If they had already decided this, he'd be long gone by now.

And he most certainly is important to them. If they're too proud/stupid to admit it, well, that's nothing new.

Because core players only stay core players if theyre on board with what youre trying to do as an organization. Prior to this summer, absolutely a core player. But after all these shenanigans, you start to see what the player is really like, and what the organization is really like. Most of the time, you dont hold out on core players, play strong arm with them, refuse to negotiate with their agents for long periods of time. You try to stay as amicable as possible. None of those have happened here and its clear as day that the avs will do without him if they have to.

You make it sound so easy, but recent history proves the Avs have struggled mightily to fill that 3rd line center spot.



Yup, and most all of them will deliver less bang for the buck than O'Reilly. The Avs will have to pay market value for those players, and so there's a very good chance they'll have to overpay.

Ugh...We've always had defensively responsible players in our bottom 6. ROR, McClement, Richardson, Laperriere, even Tucker worked hard. The problem isnt finding these guys. The problem is we RELY TOO HEAVILY on these guys.

Everyone loves to talk about the days of Yelle, Podein...etc. But what you need to understand is, these guys had the sole responsibility of playing defense and to work hard. They chipped in barely any offense whatsoever. The difference between our bottom 6 then and now, is that back then, we had ridiculous scoring from our top 6. Yelle never had more than 27 points in a season.

As for having to overpay...
What about guys like Matt Cullen, who no longer would get a contract like hes had.
Manny Malhotra
Tyler Bozak
Boyd Gordon
Jochen Hecht
Dave Steckel
Kyle Chipchura
Mark Letestu

Other than Cullen, all make less than 2.5 M

Whats lacking is offense from our top 6. Because its makes everyone elses job easier.

I won't lie...this flies right in the face of O'Reilly's rep. No matter what happens from here on out, that rep has taken a serious blow, and he has no one but himself to blame for that.

Alright we agree on this.

But let me ask you this as well.

How many players can you name, in the past 10 years who...

The avs have offered a contract to, that said player has declined, and has signed for MORE than what the avs offered.

To me, its PAINFULLY clear, that when the avs offer contracts, they are absolutely fair, no question.

So to me, it begs the question. Does ROR have really any leg to stand on when it comes to this negotiation in regards to comparables on other teams, his own team, RFA contract history, Avs contract history...anything...

 

[AMDZen]

Probably a dumb question but where is arbitration in all this? Why doesn't this go to arbitration at this point?

 

[Avs_19]

Not only is he not playing but he also just killed my twitter feed. The app won't even load anymore on my phone after that.

At least we know he's still alive.

Probably a dumb question but where is arbitration in all this? Why doesn't this go to arbitration at this point?

He's not eligible for arbitration.

 

[Jeff_Dyck_#1]

At least we know he's still alive.

 

[AslanRH]

Can we take it as a positive his picture is a Avs uni?

 

[Freudian]

You have to wonder what the point of having Sakic there? Is he just a yes man? Does he care about what team Avs put on the ice? Is he fishing for a cushy job in the future?

He's as accessible as the rest of them, so I guess we'll never know.

 

[hockeyfish]

You have to wonder what the point of having Sakic there? Is he just a yes man? Does he care about what team Avs put on the ice? Is he fishing for a cushy job in the future?

He's as accessible as the rest of them, so I guess we'll never know.

I don't know what this has to do with O'Reilly, but what is he going to do. If he sits down with the kid and pulls the captain/HOF stuff trying to get him to sign a deal, O'Reilly can just point to his offer sheet. Yeah, Sakic isn't a pure Avalanche poster boy himself.

 

[Freudian]

I don't know what this has to do with O'Reilly, but what is he going to do. If he sits down with the kid and pulls the captain/HOF stuff trying to get him to sign a deal, O'Reilly can just point to his offer sheet. Yeah, Sakic isn't a pure Avalanche poster boy himself.

He can try to use whatever influence he has to get O'Reilly signed. That means influence both with the player and GM.

Assuming he is more than a puppet. Assuming he cares about Avalanche as a hockey team more than as a business.

He doesn't have to be there. So what does he want with his involvement?

 

[Pokecheque]

Because core players only stay core players if theyre on board with what youre trying to do as an organization. Prior to this summer, absolutely a core player. But after all these shenanigans, you start to see what the player is really like, and what the organization is really like. Most of the time, you dont hold out on core players, play strong arm with them, refuse to negotiate with their agents for long periods of time. You try to stay as amicable as possible. None of those have happened here and its clear as day that the avs will do without him if they have to.

You may be 100% right on what the Avs are thinking here. But if that's the case, they need to grow the **** up. Not every player is going to be Joe Sakic and Milan Hejduk. Most professional athletes have big egos to go with the big talent, and the organization needs to accept that.

So O'Reilly's behavior is disappointing. It doesn't erase the fact that he was the best player on the team last season, and could still be the best player on the team this season and beyond. The Kings traded for two guys with big contracts who crashed a frat party once. The Hawks have continued to hold onto Patrick Kane despite several embarrassing drunken incidents.

And if the Avs supposedly put a "premium" on character, it sure doesn't show with their acquisitions of Bryan Marchment, Darcy Tucker, and Brad ****ing May. That's why I don't think this is as much about "character" as it is the Avs front office having as big an ego as the players they're playing hardball with. You say it's so clear as to what the situation is, but the truth is that NOTHING with this organization is clear, and hasn't been for quite some time. They put premiums on loyalty and secrecy to the point where even the slightest hints of dissension have resulted in those individuals being expunged like yesterday's garbage. You can't say it's so abundantly clear as to how the Avs have handled the situation, because this organization has never communicated with the fans and media in any acceptable manner. It's just assumed that the organization knows what it's doing since they won two Cups. Well...that was a long time ago. The culture has grown stale, and it's time for a change.

Even the Broncos finally admitted when Shanahan had worn out his welcome and it was time for a change, and though they made a gigantic mistake in picking his immediate successor it was the right decision.

Lacroix still exerts far too much power and influence in this organization for a guy who claimed he was stepping back. I don't believe for a moment that Sherman is merely a puppet, but if he ever did something that the Lacroix Brain Trust didn't approve, like engage in active negotiations with O'Reilly instead of this take-it-or-leave-it stance.

Ugh...We've always had defensively responsible players in our bottom 6. ROR, McClement, Richardson, Laperriere, even Tucker worked hard. The problem isnt finding these guys. The problem is we RELY TOO HEAVILY on these guys.

Everyone loves to talk about the days of Yelle, Podein...etc. But what you need to understand is, these guys had the sole responsibility of playing defense and to work hard. They chipped in barely any offense whatsoever. The difference between our bottom 6 then and now, is that back then, we had ridiculous scoring from our top 6. Yelle never had more than 27 points in a season.

Please don't use Tucker as an example of anything positive. His acquisition and subsequent failure was one of many reasons why Giguere and Granato lost their jobs.

BTW, you talk about how little our 3rd line scored, but you do remember in our 2000-01 Cup run that our 2nd line in the playoffs consisted of Chris Drury, Dan Hinote, and Ville Nieminen, right?

And moreover, I'm confused as to what your point is here. Losing Yelle ended up hurting the Avs far more than they could've imagined. The PK went down the tubes and the Avs could never find reliability and stability at the checking center position until O'Reilly finally showed up. Any championship team relies heavily on defensive forwards. The Avs didn't rely "too heavily" on these players, they just didn't get good enough players for those positions. Remember our "dream team" with Selanne/Kariya was spiraling hard until they wised up and acquired Konowalchuk.

As for having to overpay...
What about guys like Matt Cullen, who no longer would get a contract like hes had.
Manny Malhotra
Tyler Bozak
Boyd Gordon
Jochen Hecht
Dave Steckel
Kyle Chipchura
Mark Letestu

Other than Cullen, all make less than 2.5 M

Whats lacking is offense from our top 6. Because its makes everyone elses job easier.

Chipchura is barely an NHL player, and slower than Ossi Vaananen without legs. We have better players in Lake Erie. Malhotra hasn't been the same since his eye injury, and if we're gonna go after Bozak, we may as well re-sign O'Reilly.

Steckel!? Gordon!? Are you kidding me?

Alright we agree on this.

But let me ask you this as well.

How many players can you name, in the past 10 years who...

The avs have offered a contract to, that said player has declined, and has signed for MORE than what the avs offered.

To me, its PAINFULLY clear, that when the avs offer contracts, they are absolutely fair, no question.

So to me, it begs the question. Does ROR have really any leg to stand on when it comes to this negotiation in regards to comparables on other teams, his own team, RFA contract history, Avs contract history...anything...

You need to show me where your evidence is that makes this so PAINFULLY CLEAR. The Avs have had a reputation for lowballing UFAs (Laperriere, Brunette, Theodore) and those players have been public that the offers made were insulting, but they were offers made so the Avs can run to the fans (on those rare occasions they actually DO address the fans) and say "hey, we tried." B.S. Unless you have those offers in front of you (and again, given how secretive they are, I'm betting you don't) then you can't say with authority that it's "painfully clear" the offers were fair.

BTW, Alex Tanguay, Adam Deadmarsh, Jose Theodore, Chris Drury, Sandis Ozolinsh, and Craig Anderson are examples of players who signed big contracts after leaving the Avs. And I think Joe Sakic counts since he signed an offer sheet from the Rangers and was fully prepared to leave, and said as much. And yes, I'm going back farther than 10 years because those situations are relevant to the problem at hand.

The one and only time I've ever seen this organization step up and pay big $$$ without much hassle was when they re-signed Roy, Blake, and Sakic following the 2001 Cup victory, and Forsberg upon his many returns. Those players are gone, and ownership needs to realize the reality of the situation here, and that like many legendary sports figures, Pierre Lacroix has stayed on far, far too long.

Okay...overly long post over. Carry on.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Dreger and McKenzie are going to discuss the situation tonight in the 1st intermission of Montreal/Tampa. I don't have the TSN feed, but I'm sure they'll put it up online later.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Pay him eff the FO

 

[JoemAvs]

Pay him eff the FO

Get rid of the whole FO + Sacco and than ask him gently if he wants to take the 2yr x 3.5 M and promise him that if he committs he will be the 2nd line center next year (aka ship #26 out). If he refuses trade his ass immediately and ask under which coach Paul could see himself re-sign with the Avs for a cheaper contract....

 

[henchman21]

Take it as you will

The Hockey Chat ‏@TheHockeyChat
O'Reilly is DEFINETELY on the trading block for the Avalanche. Just confirmed this. Won't come cheap

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Pay him eff the FO

More like take the fair two year deal you've been offered.

 

[Jeff_Dyck_#1]

Dreger and McKenzie are going to discuss the situation tonight in the 1st intermission of Montreal/Tampa. I don't have the TSN feed, but I'm sure they'll put it up online later.

http://atdee.net/60082/watch-montreal-canadiens-vs-tampa-bay-lightning

 

[Pokecheque]

Get rid of the whole FO + Sacco and than ask him gently if he wants to take the 2yr x 3.5 M and promise him that if he committs he will be the 2nd line center next year (aka ship #26 out). If he refuses trade his ass immediately and ask under which coach Paul could see himself re-sign with the Avs for a cheaper contract....

What evidence do we have that O'Reilly wants a top-six role guaranteed? I don't think he'll care much so long as he gets the contract he wants. His play and ability already merits a major role on the team, I doubt he's concerned about that.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Dreger and McKenzie are going to discuss the situation tonight in the 1st intermission of Montreal/Tampa. I don't have the TSN feed, but I'm sure they'll put it up online later.

Looks like I picked the right game to watch.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Mckenzie says there's been talk O'Reilly has asked for a trade, and neither the Avs or O'Reilly's camp will confirm or deny that.

He says now there's talk they're considering trading him, and Dreger confirms they're considering trading him to the East. He says it's ugly, and the expectation of return is a roster player and a top prospect.

 

[IceRat]

So O'Reilly's behavior is disappointing. It doesn't erase the fact that he was the best player on the team last season

most points (by the slimmest of margins) does not equal best player
and ROR was not our best player