Zach Bogosian

[truck]

He's already a top pair D but we shouldn't expect him to become a more than a 3/4 at best? What?

His game has regressed? Again, what?

He plays the toughest minutes for defensemen on the team (along with Enstrom). Does he look average to you because he's not making sexy rushes? Do you think Byfuglien is a better defenseman than Bogosian because he wheels with the puck and puts up points?

Fact is, for defensemen who you know, play defense, Bogosian is second only to Tobias Enstrom on this team. He is 24 and will most likely not peak until around 30.

Lets think about that for a second, guys.

Bogo is a top pairing defender, but I doubt that would be the case in most any strong D core.

I also suspect that Jacob Trouba will supplant him on the depth chart relatively soon.

I don't buy the peak at 30 thing either. Bogo is nearing his prime, which usually comes in the mid 20s.

 

[Huffer]

Bogo is a top pairing defender, but I doubt that would be the case in most any strong D core.

I also suspect that Jacob Trouba will supplant him on the depth chart relatively soon.

I personally have no issue with Trouba passing Bogo on the depth chart.

To me it just means we can then have the luxury a guy who's capable of playing on the top pair and 23+ minutes a night on our 2nd pair.

If Trouba becomes that elite #1 we are hoping for, and Morrissey can become a 2/3, it could give us something like:

Enstrom (1)(2 as he gets older) - Trouba (1)
Morrissey (2/3) - Bogo (2/3)

That's a pretty decent core IMO, and one that doesn't need to play their top pair 28 minutes a night.

 

[truck]

I personally have no issue with Trouba passing Bogo on the depth chart.

To me it just means we can then have the luxury a guy who's capable of playing on the top pair and 23+ minutes a night on our 2nd pair.

If Trouba becomes that elite #1 we are hoping for, and Morrissey can become a 2/3, it could give us something like:

Enstrom (1)(2 as he gets older) - Trouba (1)
Morrissey (2/3) - Bogo (2/3)

That's a pretty decent core IMO, and one that doesn't need to play their top pair 28 minutes a night.

Every player in the NHL is capable of playing 23 minutes per night.
Not every player who plays 23 minutes per night is on the same level.
Not every player who plays 23 minutes per night wins those minutes. '

While Bogo is capable of playing 23 minutes a night, but to date he has largely been outplayed in those minutes.

 

[Huffer]

Every player in the NHL is capable of playing 23 minutes per night.
Not every player who plays 23 minutes per night is on the same level.
Not every player who plays 23 minutes per night wins those minutes. '

While Bogo is capable of playing 23 minutes a night, but to date he has largely been outplayed in those minutes.

True.

Personally I don't think he's been bad on our top pair this year, but that doesn't change the overall point of my post. Which was, Trouba someday passing Bogo and being on the top pair won't be a bad thing if it gives us two solid pairs overall.

 

[scelaton]

I think the only thing wrong with Bogo is our elevated expectations. I wish the Thrashers had taken Pietrangelo instead but they didn't and Bogo is still a very good D. If he had been signed to a shorter cheaper contract he would probably have been extended this off-season for ~6mil/yr.

The bolded largely sums it up, but I would have said the main thing wrong with him relates to our expectations--as he has plenty of warts.
Bogo is a solid 3/4, with top pairing upside, but we simply cannot predict with any accuracy whether he will reach it or how long he will play at this level. I agree with those who say he is still a young D-mind in a big D-body. To say X player will peak at 26, using averages, is not helpful, when there is so much variability.
So, worst case scenario is we have a great 3/4 on a very nice AAV for many years, who we learn to love, warts and all.
Best case scenario is:
a)he develops better hockey IQ, which is the only thing separating him from being a 1/2. (I would rate that as a 40/60 proposition)
b)We get a trade offer that values him as a top-pairing D, and pull the trigger. I can't wait for the reaction if that ever happens!

 

[truck]

True.

Personally I don't think he's been bad on our top pair this year, but that doesn't change the overall point of my post. Which was, Trouba someday passing Bogo and being on the top pair won't be a bad thing if it gives us two solid pairs overall.

Aye. Trouba passing Bogo isn't a bad thing - if it happens - as I think it pushes Bogo back into a role that he is better suited for. As things currently sit, I think the Jets top pair has been sub par. Without a top pair that can beat tough minutes, consistency is hard to come by.

 

[surixon]

Aye. Trouba passing Bogo isn't a bad thing - if it happens - as I think it pushes Bogo back into a role that he is better suited for. As things currently sit, I think the Jets top pair has been sub par. Without a top pair that can beat tough minutes, consistency is hard to come by.

I've found myself more annoyed with Enstrom to date than Bogo. For such a smart player he's made a number of dumb decisions this year.

 

[dobiezeke*]

He's already a top pair D but we shouldn't expect him to become a more than a 3/4 at best? What?

His game has regressed? Again, what?

He plays the toughest minutes for defensemen on the team (along with Enstrom). Does he look average to you because he's not making sexy rushes? Do you think Byfuglien is a better defenseman than Bogosian because he wheels with the puck and puts up points?

Fact is, for defensemen who you know, play defense, Bogosian is second only to Tobias Enstrom on this team. He is 24 and will most likely not peak until around 30.

Lets think about that for a second, guys.

Bogo is a top pairing defenceman on a team that has failed to make the playoffs in his tenure. If you believe he would slide into the top 2 spots on a playoff/cup contending team then this discussion is pointless.

Comparing him to other defence on the Jets is useless - this team has been pathetic in that category for the past three years.

 

[StronGeer]

Bogo is a top pairing defenceman on a team that has failed to make the playoffs in his tenure. If you believe he would slide into the top 2 spots on a playoff/cup contending team then this discussion is pointless.

Comparing him to other defence on the Jets is useless - this team has been pathetic in that category for the past three years.

Similarly, the difference between us and a contending team is not a better #1D. He's not an elite 1D, but he's not what's holding us pack either.

 

[dobiezeke*]

Similarly, the difference between us and a contending team is not a better #1D. He's not an elite 1D, but he's not what's holding us pack either.

I don't disagree that he is not the difference - wasn't the point of the my post. He is not in the same category of 1/2 defenceman throughout the league on playoff teams. There is nothing wrong with being a 3/4.

 

[truck]

Similarly, the difference between us and a contending team is not a better #1D. He's not an elite 1D, but he's not what's holding us pack either.

Swapping him for a better defender is one of the things that the team needs to do to contend.

Better 1st D pair
Better #1C
Better #1G
Better depth

Not having all of the above holds this team back.

 

[KingBogo]

Swapping him for a better defender is one of the things that the team needs to do to contend.

Better 1st D pair
Better #1C
Better #1G
Better depth

Not having all of the above holds this team back.

I think you are describing the Kings...or maybe the Hawks. Either way we have a long way to go and need several more pieces. In truth Bogo is one of my last worries on the team. He could actually play a role on a contender, be it on the 2nd or 3rd pairing. That can't be said about a lot of our other players.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I think you are describing the Kings...or maybe the Hawks. Either way we have a long way to go and need several more pieces. In truth Bogo is one of my last worries on the team. He could actually play a role on a contender, be it on the 2nd or 3rd pairing. That can't be said about a lot of our other players.

This is my thought as well: I don't begrudge him not fulfilling his draft position potential. He's a very good 3/4 d-man, who can also log 1st pairing time when needed. Teams still need those guys.

 

[KingBogo]

This is my thought as well: I don't begrudge him not fulfilling his draft position potential. He's a very good 3/4 d-man, who can also log 1st pairing time when needed. Teams still need those guys.

Agreed. The problem is with so many people still comparing him against their expectations any perceived mistake gets amplified and then everyone piles on as punishment for not being Doughty or Pietrangelo.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Agreed. The problem is with so many people still comparing him against their expectations any perceived mistake gets amplified and then everyone piles on as punishment for not being Doughty or Pietrangelo.

Yup. If he were TNSE's draft pick, I might be a bit more perturbed. As it stands, he was a component of the team when he arrived here, so I don't put much stock in his draft position, and prefer to see him for what he is and not what he should have been. He's still an extremely useful piece.

 

[ps241]

Yup. If he were TNSE's draft pick, I might be a bit more perturbed. As it stands, he was a component of the team when he arrived here, so I don't put much stock in his draft position, and prefer to see him for what he is and not what he should have been. He's still an extremely useful piece.

Yea that's my take as well. Sure he got drafted in the wrong spot but we need him on the team at this point. Far from a perfect player but he is a top 4 D man.

 

[truck]

Yea that's my take as well. Sure he got drafted in the wrong spot but we need him on the team at this point. Far from a perfect player but he is a top 4 D man.

I don't see him as a problem either, that isn't what I was trying to imply.

I do however disagree with StronGeer's comment.

Similarly, the difference between us and a contending team is not a better #1D.

Because IMO, that is one of the big differences.

Better 1st D pair
Better #1C
Better #1G
Better depth

These are all needs and this has nothing to do with Bogosian or his draft position, it has to do with me thinking he wouldn't be on the top pair of a good team.

 

[ps241]

I don't see him as a problem either, that isn't what I was trying to imply.

I do however disagree with StronGeer's comment.



Because IMO, that is one of the big differences.

Better 1st D pair
Better #1C
Better #1G
Better depth

These are all needs and this has nothing to do with Bogosian or his draft position, it has to do with me thinking he wouldn't be on the top pair of a good team.

Sure I jumped into the middle of this so in a snapshot I don't think Bogo is an issue. However, I 100% agree that what is holding us back is all the above. We need away better #1 goaltending. Trouba may fill the role of a #1 defender at some point. Also we do need a better # 1 centre if we want to get to the next level maybe Scheif gets there but I think his ceiling is #1 centre but not quite what you are talking about. I believe depth will come but the question is when? The key is timing this so we have all these elements at the same time and I have trouble imaging that scenario.

As an example you take a team like the Blues they have the D man and depth but are missing the #1 centre you are talking about which is why they will have trouble getting past the teams in the west.....same think their goaltending can get hit but they just don't have enough key pieces off that list.


We have lots of interesting pieces but we have gaping holes if you are talking about your list above and most championship teams have at least 3 of those elements. However when it comes to the Jets and TNSE's vision I think the vision is more about just getting to playoff level at some point.

 

[Jet]

Bogo is a top pairing defenceman on a team that has failed to make the playoffs in his tenure. If you believe he would slide into the top 2 spots on a playoff/cup contending team then this discussion is pointless.

Comparing him to other defence on the Jets is useless - this team has been pathetic in that category for the past three years.

You could say that about pretty much every player position on the Winnipeg Jets. What is your point?

On this team, he is a top pair guy, and he's there because he is amongst our very best, which is the point I was making against your original point.

PLUS the fact that he's a 24 year old defenseman. I'm not saying he is exactly what I wanted or expected him to be, I'm saying I believe he isn't done maturing or growing.

I've kept a lot more quiet about Bogosian around here than I wanted to because I am a big fan and there is some bias but there is also a lot of fact behind my opinion.

People will continue to rip him apart whenever he makes a mistake and I will accept that. People will get used to Trouba and start doing it to him as well. It's the nature of the beast.

When our goaltending improves in a longer sample size, people will see our defense is actually quite good.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You could say that about pretty much every player position on the Winnipeg Jets. What is your point?

On this team, he is a top pair guy, and he's there because he is amongst our very best, which is the point I was making against your original point.

PLUS the fact that he's a 24 year old defenseman. I'm not saying he is exactly what I wanted or expected him to be, I'm saying I believe he isn't done maturing or growing.

I've kept a lot more quiet about Bogosian around here than I wanted to because I am a big fan and there is some bias but there is also a lot of fact behind my opinion.

People will continue to rip him apart whenever he makes a mistake and I will accept that. People will get used to Trouba and start doing it to him as well. It's the nature of the beast.

When our goaltending improves in a longer sample size, people will see our defense is actually quite good.

I don't think that is quite correct. We have 3 pretty good D, Morrissey should make it 4. But our 1st pair should be 2nd, our 2nd pair should be 3rd and our 3rd pair should be spares. That is if we are to be a contending team. We need 2 D better than any we now have. That is a tough order to fill.

 

[EpicGingy]

I think half of our first pair is a second pair, and half of our second is a third.

If Postma plays as well as he has been consistently then we have a third, as well.

 

[Jet]

I don't think that is quite correct. We have 3 pretty good D, Morrissey should make it 4. But our 1st pair should be 2nd, our 2nd pair should be 3rd and our 3rd pair should be spares. That is if we are to be a contending team. We need 2 D better than any we now have. That is a tough order to fill.

I guess we will just disagree. I don't like Stuart or Pardy that much to be honest, but I think that:

Enstrom is at the cusp of elite.

Trouba looks like he might project even better than Toby

Bogosian is a legitimate top 2 guy

Clitsome and Postma are solid bottom pair guys.

I think we are missing one guy in our top 4.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I don't think that is quite correct. We have 3 pretty good D, Morrissey should make it 4. But our 1st pair should be 2nd, our 2nd pair should be 3rd and our 3rd pair should be spares. That is if we are to be a contending team. We need 2 D better than any we now have. That is a tough order to fill.

While it would be great to push everyone down one pairing, I don't think we're that bad off. As truck states, a #1 changes things immensely regarding the makeup. Let's say by hook or crook that we manage to grab Suter, and leave the rest of the personnel as they are. I'm also going to assume this happens next year, so we'll see Trouba with another year under his belt, and Morrissey joins the Jets.

(ignoring handedness):

Suter - Trouba
Enstrom - Bogo
Morrissey - Clitsome / Postma

That looks a heck of a lot better, and it only inserted a 1D (only )

 

[truck]

I guess we will just disagree. I don't like Stuart or Pardy that much to be honest, but I think that:

Enstrom is at the cusp of elite.

Trouba looks like he might project even better than Toby

Bogosian is a legitimate top 2 guy

Clitsome and Postma are solid bottom pair guys.

I think we are missing one guy in our top 4.

I agree on Toby.

But as of right now:

Bogo should be a second pairing D
Trouba should be a second pairing D
Stu, Pardy, Postma and Clitsome should be a third pair or worse.

Trouba obviously has potential, but he isn't a #1 yet and I don't think Bogo ever will be.

Even with good goaltending, this D group is a little below average and one injury away from horrible.

In my opinion.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

If we don't pick up any FA next year:

Enstrom-Trouba
Clitsome-Bogo
Morrissey-Stuart

Thats acceptable.