Series Talk: Winter Olympics 2022: Ice Hockey Edition

[Pens x]

Todd Reirden is a USA Olympic hockey coach.

That’s an embarrassment to Americans. Seriously. Cronyism at its finest. Sully doesn’t want good coaches that might actually challenge him to make adjustments if lines aren’t clicking.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I really don’t see Tavares going actually. There are so many better options, this isn’t 2014.

I too also want to see Mac and Sid together. I imagine that will happen a few times and on the PP. Rat - Sid - Berg will probably be there 2/3 line that’s sent out against the other teams best.

Agreed. I don't see what Tavares adds that is needed on this roster. He's not going to beat out guys for a top six offensive role, and there are players who are much better defensively who can fill bottom six roles.

 

[Gurglesons]

Agreed. I don't see what Tavares adds that is needed on this roster. He's not going to beat out guys for a top six offensive role, and there are players who are much better defensively who can fill bottom six roles.

The only reason I see him going is because he’s consistently gone before and still is a very good player. Canada tends to go with their guys.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The only reason I see him going is because he’s consistently gone before and still is a very good player. Canada tends to go with their guys.

Eh ... in terms of Olympic participation, he's only been on the team once, and he had a bit role (zero points and then missed the entire medal round with an injury). It's not like guys like Toews or Doughty, whose current play may not necessarily justify a selection but because of what they've done for TC in the past, might get the nod to fill depth roles.

 

[Gurglesons]

Eh ... in terms of Olympic participation, he's only been on the team once, and he had a bit role (zero points and then missed the entire medal round with an injury). It's not like guys like Toews or Doughty, whose current play may not necessarily justify a selection but because of what they've done for TC in the past, might get the nod to fill depth roles.

Tavares is one of the 12 best Canadian forwards in terms of actual production and per game production over the last two years.

He’s been a regular Team Canada guy since he made the league. Five times he has represented the company.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Tavares is one of the 12 best Canadian forwards in terms of actual production and per game production over the last two years.

Right, but they're not going to bring the top 12 scorers. They're going to bring along guys who don't produce as much as Tavares, but who provide shutdown/PK ability (ie. guys like O'Reilly, Couturier, Bergeron, etc.).

The fact he's an offensive forward and ranks so low in offense among Canadian forwards actually works against him since some of the spots will be going to guys who better combine offense and defense than he does, even if they don't score quite as much.

He’s been a regular Team Canada guy since he made the league. Five times he has represented the company.

But he's not the same player he was the last time he represented Canada at the Olympics. He's older and slower now. So why would him representing Canada in his peak at 21-26 years old matter if there are better players currently than him?

The locks are probably:
Crosby
McDavid
MacKinnon
Bergeron
Marchand
Point
Stone
O'Reilly
Huberdeau

Then the next likely ones are Marner, Barzal, Couturier, Scheifele, Stamkos, and if he's back in game shape, Toews. Who is Tavares being picked ahead of out of those guys?

 

[Gurglesons]

Right, but they're not going to bring the top 12 scorers. They're going to bring along guys who don't produce as much as Tavares, but who provide shutdown/PK ability (ie. guys like O'Reilly, Couturier, Bergeron, etc.).

The fact he's an offensive forward and ranks so low in offense among Canadian forwards actually works against him since some of the spots will be going to guys who better combine offense and defense than he does, even if they don't score quite as much.



But he's not the same player he was the last time he represented Canada at the Olympics. He's older and slower now. So why would him representing Canada in his peak at 21-26 years old matter if there are better players currently than him?

The locks are probably:
Crosby
McDavid
MacKinnon
Bergeron
Marchand
Point
Stone
O'Reilly
Huberdeau

Then the next likely ones are Marner, Barzal, Couturier, Scheifele, Stamkos, and if he's back in game shape, Toews. Who is Tavares being picked ahead of out of those guys?

Honestly, I could easily see Tavares over all of the ones you listed. Kinda like Bouwmeester over who he was over in 2014.

 

[Peat]

But he's not the same player he was the last time he represented Canada at the Olympics. He's older and slower now. So why would him representing Canada in his peak at 21-26 years old matter if there are better players currently than him?

Because loyalty and familiarity matter to the guys picking the team and that sometimes trumping current ability is a staple of international sports.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Honestly, I could easily see Tavares over all of the ones you listed. Kinda like Bouwmeester over who he was over in 2014.

Bouwmeester was picked because he was already D-partners with Pietrangelo in St. Louis, and was defensively reliable. Plus, he's a fantastic skater even as he got on in age, and on the big ice that was still an asset. Besides, who was Bouwmeester's competition? Canada was strong on RD, but after Keith and Vlasic, they weren't particularly good on LD.

In Tavares' case, not only is his skating not an asset, but for what he brings to the table he doesn't have a leg up on any of those "maybe" players. Marner's more dynamic offensively, Barzal's more dynamic/better skater, Scheifele produces just as much but is more versatile (can play wing), Stamkos would be the PP one time triggerman, and Couturier would go because of his defensive abilities. Tavares literally has zero edge over any of those guys.

I mean, I guess I'm not saying he *won't* be picked because who knows with Team Canada. They sometimes bring along guys they shouldn't. I'm saying I don't see a reason why he should be picked ahead of the guys Canada has available.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because loyalty and familiarity matter to the guys picking the team and that sometimes trumping current ability is a staple of international sports.

I think that only applies to players who played huge roles for Team Canada in the past, but who have fallen off. Players like Toews or Doughty, who aren't what they were, but who were monsters for Canada in the past.

Not sure Tavares fits that bill. He was a bit player in Canada's gold in Sochi, recording 0 points before injuring his knee and not even playing in the medal rounds.

 

[Peat]

I think that only applies to players who played huge roles for Team Canada in the past, but who have fallen off. Players like Toews or Doughty, who aren't what they were, but who were monsters for Canada in the past.

Not sure Tavares fits that bill. He was a bit player in Canada's gold in Sochi, recording 0 points before injuring his knee and not even playing in the medal rounds.

How many World Cups has he done? I get a feeling from reading some of the international chat, that guys who turn up to those events when others are off to the golf course tend to get a lot of rope from the national teams.

If it's not many then yeah, I guess there's not a lot of reason he should go... although that doesn't necessarily mean a huge deal.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Highly doubt Tavares makes the team. He’s slow and isn’t a two way player. He won’t be in the top 6 and there are better players out there for the bottom 6.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How many World Cups has he done? I get a feeling from reading some of the international chat, that guys who turn up to those events when others are off to the golf course tend to get a lot of rope from the national teams.

If it's not many then yeah, I guess there's not a lot of reason he should go... although that doesn't necessarily mean a huge deal.

He's played in 3 World Championships for Canada (but none since 2012), one Olympics (2014) and the World Cup event (2016). He played a bit role in both the Olympics and World Cup (was the 5th or 6th offensive forward, but not used in any defensive situations).

I don't think that's enough to kind of earn a "tenured spot" on the team due to past participation and past impact performances for Canada. I keep referencing the difference between him and Toews because I don't think either guy currently deserves a spot on TC, but Toews is a guy who *has* had huge tournament for Canada to earn a "lifetime achievement" spot. Tavares has not.

 

[BHD]

Canada has an embarrassment of riches up front. I don't think the forwards will be an issue unless they put somebody like Zach Hyman or Adam Lowry on the team.

The goaltending, though, is a concern for me. It could cost the game for an otherwise stacked team.

 

[Gurglesons]

He's played in 3 World Championships for Canada (but none since 2012), one Olympics (2014) and the World Cup event (2016). He played a bit role in both the Olympics and World Cup (was the 5th or 6th offensive forward, but not used in any defensive situations).

I don't think that's enough to kind of earn a "tenured spot" on the team due to past participation and past impact performances for Canada. I keep referencing the difference between him and Toews because I don't think either guy currently deserves a spot on TC, but Toews is a guy who *has* had huge tournament for Canada to earn a "lifetime achievement" spot. Tavares has not.

But Toews isn’t a top scorer amongst Canadian’s over the last two years.

 

[Zirakzigil]

But Toews isn’t a top scorer amongst Canadian’s over the last two years.

He’s not one of Canada’s best 6 offensively and isn’t a good depth role player. That and he’s slow. No room on the team for him. It’s not about taking the top 12 point getters.

Edit: Tavares that is

 

[Peat]

Tavares ain't even a top 10 points scorer among Canadians over the last 2 seasons; he's 11th by points, and t-11th by ppg (Crosby and Stamkos go ahead of him on ppg, O'Reilly drops below, Point goes from above to tied). The five guys tied with him/after him at ppg are a B2B SC 1C, and all of Canada's active Selke winners. T-11th on ESP with a player with less games played (Couturier), and nowhere near top 10 on p/60 (which Toews is).

Even if Team Canada wanted to just bring their most productive players, it would be pretty touch and go as to whether Tavares should be included in a match day 12.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

But Toews isn’t a top scorer amongst Canadian’s over the last two years.

Neither is Tavares.

 

[Gurglesons]

Neither is Tavares.

He and Brayden Point basically have identical production.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He and Brayden Point basically have identical production.

Difference is Point's play is trending up, while Tavares' is trending down.

I honestly don't know how much you've watched Tavares since he joined the Leafs. You seem to be talking about him as though he's the Islanders version who finished 2nd to Benn in the Art Ross race.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Difference is Point's play is trending up, while Tavares' is trending down.

I honestly don't know how much you've watched Tavares since he joined the Leafs. You seem to be talking about him as though he's the Islanders version who finished 2nd to Benn in the Art Ross race.

This. Skating and defence make this comparison a
no brainer alone.

 

[Gurglesons]

Difference is Point's play is trending up, while Tavares' is trending down.

I honestly don't know how much you've watched Tavares since he joined the Leafs. You seem to be talking about him as though he's the Islanders version who finished 2nd to Benn in the Art Ross race.

No, but he seems like a Canadian favorite who is still a top ten guy. I’m not saying he’s a lock, but I could see him easily making it.

 

[Zirakzigil]

No, but he seems like a Canadian favorite who is still a top ten guy. I’m not saying he’s a lock, but I could see him easily making it.

Canadian favourite or Toronto favourite? He gets media attention because of where he plays, not because he’s a top player.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No, but he seems like a Canadian favorite who is still a top ten guy. I’m not saying he’s a lock, but I could see him easily making it.

Top 10 at what? He's not a top 10 player. He's not even a top 10 center at this point (league wide, not just among Canadians).

Tavares brings one thing to the table: offense. And that offense is slipping and isn't enough to earn him a spot on the team. So he'll be competing against guys who bring other things to the table.

Like I said, *could* he be picked if TC just decides to bring back everyone who played on that Sochi team? Sure. But his actual play/level of performance *right now* isn't worthy of being one of the 12 starting forwards or even the 13th or 14th extra.

 

[Gurglesons]

Top 10 at what? He's not a top 10 player. He's not even a top 10 center at this point (league wide, not just among Canadians).

Tavares brings one thing to the table: offense. And that offense is slipping and isn't enough to earn him a spot on the team. So he'll be competing against guys who bring other things to the table.

Like I said, *could* he be picked if TC just decides to bring back everyone who played on that Sochi team? Sure. But his actual play/level of performance *right now* isn't worthy of being one of the 12 starting forwards or even the 13th or 14th extra.

He’s 11th in terms of points and PPG amongst Canadian forwards. Basically tied with Point and Perron.