When will Matthews win his first Rocket?

[BoredBrandonPridham]

That’s not even close to all I said. I asked a question regarding your criteria which you ignored. Maybe go back and read again if you went through it all too fast

If the question about my criteria that you're referring to is this:

So if Matthews wins the rocket next year but a different player has more goals p/60 Matthews is still better because...reasons?

Then the question was already answered in the very post you were replying to:

Goal scoring is talent and imo needs to be proven over a body of work, not just a single season. if someone is producing better 5v5 g/60 and PP g/60 over a body of like 3+ seasons then absolutely imo that player will be a better goal scorer than any rocket winner in a year who happened to have shit tons of PP time that year.

That's why I said your comment was random, because there is a lot of detail that answers your question in the post you were replying to.

 

[Dache]

If the question about my criteria that you're referring to is this:




Then the question was already answered in the very post you were replying to:



That's why I said your comment was random, because there is a lot of detail that answers your question in the post you were replying to.

So then before this past year you didn’t think Matthews was the best goal scorer?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

So then before this past year you didn’t think Matthews was the best goal scorer?

I mean up until the start of last season he quite decisively had the best 5v5 g/60 over the previous few years for players with first line usage (15+ 5v5 TOI/game). If there are others in the conversation then yea, they are in the conversation for best goal scorer in the league. Maybe one of those new kids like Pettersson have entered the conversation.

 

[Dache]

Delete. Incorrect info

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

But that’s not 3+ years as is stated in your criteria. Which is fine, close enough. So then for the last 3 years who is the better goal scorer, Matthews or Scheifele? Scheifele has the higher 5vs5 g/p60, es g/p60 and pp g/p60.

you're trying too hard to "catch" me with specifics of criteria. all i'm saying is i need to see a body of work, not just one season. in those 3+ years, having first-line usage is also important as I said, etc... you should stop being so defensive.

Any way, last 3 seasons Sheifele has 5v5 g/60 of 0.76 and Matthews 1.53, double the rate of goal scoring. At least according to Natural Stat Trick. Where is your data coming from?

 

[Dache]

you're trying too hard to "catch" me with specifics of criteria. all i'm saying is i need to see a body of work, not just one season. in those 3+ years, having first-line usage is also important as I said, etc... you should stop being so defensive.

Any way, last 3 seasons Sheifele has 5v5 g/60 of 0.76 and Matthews 1.53, double the rate of goal scoring. At least according to Natural Stat Trick. Where is your data coming from?

That is my mistake it auto selected playoffs when I searched. I do stand by my point that your criteria is shifting though. At one point it’s 3+ years for other players to be better than Matthews, but not for Matthews to be better than others. You’re refusing to look at it from any angle that doesn’t make your boy look the best.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

That is my mistake it auto selected playoffs when I searched. I do stand by my point that your criteria is shifting though. At one point it’s 3+ years for other players to be better than Matthews, but not for Matthews to be better than others. You’re refusing to look at it from any angle that doesn’t make your boy look the best.

my criteria goes both ways, not sure where you got my criteria being different for other players. i think it's important to just consider that there is no science, not rocket winners, or ordering a table by g/60. matthews has a very good case as best goal scorer, regardless of bias, based on that he objectively scores at a higher rate than anyone else on the ice with first line usage under similar game context ever since he first stepped on the ice.

if you have a favourite player that also scores at a similar rate I'll be happy to celebrate that player with you, and will be happy to concede if an exceptional player like petersson or whoever starts scoring more prolifically when on the ice that they have surpassed matthews.

it's just my opinion though, lots of ways to evaluate players, cheers

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

You’re refusing to look at it from any angle that doesn’t make your boy look the best.

Actually I think missed your angle. Was most goals in a season? Because that angle is shoved down my throat all the time, like ALL the time. I see that angle, but I don't buy it, for the reasons I mentioned regarding how much PP time shifts it. And no goal scorers don't tend to be personally responsible for their team getting substantial amounts of pp time over other teams.

 

[Dache]

Actually I think missed your angle. Was most goals in a season? Because that angle is shoved down my throat all the time, like ALL the time. I see that angle, but I don't buy it, for the reasons I mentioned regarding how much PP time shifts it. And no goal scorers don't tend to be personally responsible for their team getting substantial amounts of pp time over other teams.

I get the whole more context thing, but if you’re truly the best, don’t you find away around obstacles and find a way to be the best? I can understand the argument from someone that missed 10 games or something but this whole “the person that won the rocket isn’t the best” seems to only be an argument the last 4 years and it’s clear why. Is he one of the best? No doubt about it. Hell of a goal scorer and no one on here denies that. But what’s shoved down their throats is that Matthews is the best despite having not once finished with the most goals.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I get the whole more context thing, but if you’re truly the best, don’t you find away around obstacles and find a way to be the best?

not sure a player can make his while team have more special teams. I guess if he takes more penalties it could influence game management. But it’s not like players are single handedly drawing so many penalties that it puts their team in the top of pp time. It’s more just a game management thing.

seems to only be an argument the last 4 years

i mean i’ve only been interested in it in that range because it was the first time my team had a player that was in contention. i don’t spend much time talking about players that are not related to my team in a discussion. either way i don’t think that fact influences the validity of the argument.

 

[Dache]

i mean i’ve only been interested in it in that range because it was the first time my team had a player that was in contention. i don’t spend much time talking about players that are not related to my team in a discussion. either way i don’t think that fact influences the validity of the argument.

I think it 100% changes the validity of the argument. If the only time you’ve ever cared about this is because your teams player is involved it shows a high level of bias. If before that you believed the rocket winner was the best just like everyone else, but suddenly when your player is the best by looking at a different set of stats, then that’s what you choose? That’s exactly what bias is.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I think it 100% changes the validity of the argument. If the only time you’ve ever cared about this is because your teams player is involved it shows a high level of bias. If before that you believed the rocket winner was the best just like everyone else, but suddenly when your player is the best by looking at a different set of stats, then that’s what you choose? That’s exactly what bias is.

I didn't believe that before. I had no real opinion on it before. I think bias shows when someone resorts to something that doesn't make sense or can't be measured in order to support their argument. For example, if one were to discount my argument because I'm a Leafs fan and must be biased (not saying you are, because you haven't discounted my argument), then that in itself would likely be an argument substantiated on bias. The details and merits of my argument are concretely stated, measurable, are 100% logical and is something I'm happy to apply to any player moving forward ever since I have educated myself on the nuances of offensive production in hockey. I mostly started getting interested in digging into finer grained statistics when Burke -run Leafs team were making the playoffs despite getting caved in in shots every night, which just happened to be soon before players like Matthews and Marner were drafted.

 

[Dache]

I didn't believe that before. I had no real opinion on it before. I think bias shows when someone resorts to something that doesn't make sense or can't be measured in order to support their argument. For example, if one were to discount my argument because I'm a Leafs fan and must be biased (not saying you are, because you haven't discounted my argument), then that in itself would likely be an argument substantiated on bias. The details and merits of my argument are concretely stated, measurable, are 100% logical and is something I'm happy to apply to any player moving forward ever since I have educated myself on the nuances of offensive production in hockey. I mostly started getting interested in digging into finer grained statistics when Burke -run Leafs team were making the playoffs despite getting caved in in shots every night, which just happened to be soon before players like Matthews and Marner were drafted.

I don’t think bias means that your argument makes no sense, it means that you change your argument to suit the outcome. Which is what you’re doing. If your argument just flat out makes no sense, to me that’s not bias that just ignorance

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I don’t think bias means that your argument makes no sense, it means that you change your argument to suit the outcome. Which is what you’re doing. If your argument just flat out makes no sense, to me that’s not bias that just ignorance

when did it change

 

[Dache]

when did it change

Fine, changes or you only choose an opinion when it suits your player, better?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Fine, changes or you only choose an opinion when it suits your player, better?

not really, it’s when i became interested in the debate entirely. i didn’t care who the best goal scorer in the league was at all until the last 5yrs. learning about the game and stats isn’t becoming biased, it’s just learning.

 

[Dache]

not really, it’s when i became interested in the debate entirely. i didn’t care who the best goal scorer in the league was at all until the last 5yrs. learning about the game and stats isn’t becoming biased, it’s just learning.

Learning about the game isn’t biased. Learning only what ways make your player sound the best is though.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Learning about the game isn’t biased. Learning only what ways make your player sound the best is though.

i didn’t learn only the ways that make him best. i learned a lot and absorbed lots of different angles and when it comes to evaluating production this makes the most sense.

what is biased is my choice in what topics to learn about and which debates to enter into. if leafs had objectively shitty goaltending i’m probably just not going to talk about goaltending because i’m not a massachist. I’m not going to force ways to paint a pretty picture out of it.

 

[Varan]

I guess he should get better at drawing penalties? I’m not sure why other players are being penalized for capitalizing on opportunities. Sounds backwards to me

Literally. Powerplay is treated as a sin on HF nowadays. Like it's an empty net to score on.
It's a part of the game people. If you're not good on it, YOU get penalized, not the players who can make the most of it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What does this have to do with p60?

I explained this in the following post in the discussion. They are the same principles.

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

The fact that there are 80 votes to him never winning just shows how terrible this website is lol.

 

[KCC]

It would be crazy if he goes his entire career without winning one despite being such a good goal scorer.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If you're not good on it, YOU get penalized, not the players who can make the most of it.

The issue is that players are being penalized for the PP, not because they are "not good on it", but solely because their team is less special-teams dependent, and they don't get to pad their stats with it, for reasons that have nothing to do with their individual player quality. Your evaluation of who is "good" at the PP, and how good, is entirely based on one stat that is heavily skewed by TOI impacts.

 

[Varan]

The issue is that players are being penalized for the PP, not because they are "not good on it", but solely because their team is less special-teams dependent, and they don't get to pad their stats with it, for reasons that have nothing to do with their individual player quality. Your evaluation of who is "good" at the PP, and how good, is entirely based on one stat that is heavily skewed by TOI impacts.

Less special-teams dependent or they just can’t draw calls? It’s ludicrous to say that one team is less dependent on special teams because every team would love to have the chance to go on the PP as much as they would. It’s a part of the game. If your team doesn’t get much PP time, they just can’t draw calls, not that they’re “less dependent”. PP is such an important aspect of the game especially when playoff time arrives and the whistles are held. You don’t think teams would love to be on the PP in pressurized situations?

I’m pretty sure, if OV wasn’t as good on the PP (or did not have his signature one-timer), his minutes would be much lower on it. Your claim that more mins = more goals doesn’t hold water considering 5/9 times OV has led the league in goals, he wasn’t #1 in PP time. Sometimes not even close to #1

It’s a team game, so give credit to the Capitals drawing foul calls more often than the Leafs do. Why do you think players (in any sport) constantly complain for calls? Because they want them, not because they don’t depend on them. They’re literally game-changing plays. Go tell SJ last year that we don’t need to be dependent on special teams considering they would’ve been blown out of their gym without it. That’s insane to say

The Leafs just suck at drawing calls.

 

[jetsforever]

Next season I guess? It'll probably happen at some point.