What makes Tavares a better talent than Schroeder?

[Hunter Gathers]

I'd like to know where you guys are coming up with this think the game stuff...

Same here. I don't get it. Schroeder is always... always involved. No matter where the puck is on the ice. He's always in position and always moving.

I don't see it either with Tavares having this better thinking game than Schroeder.

 

[Randall Graves*]

This thread is HFboards in a nutshell.

3 blowout games into a tournament and Tavares is failing to impress and therefore overrated. He probably should be really working his butt off to impress in 8-1 blowouts that are nothing more than light practises for Canada.

Schroeder, however, is really impressive when his team has to play hard to win against a Czech Republic team that looked like a middle of the pack OHL team.

Let's wait until these guys play some real teams before making ridiculous conclusions

Almost everyone Concedes Tavares will go first or second.

Schroeder is the reason the US beat the Czechs BTW

 

[Jawafa]

Alright alright I give in, Hedman #1, Schroeder #2, MSP #3, and Tavares to Leafs at what ever pick they have.

#1 Tavares, #2 Schroeder, #3 Ellis, #4 Hedman, #5 MSP


for all of the people saying that shroeder is better than tavares that is like me saying ellis is better than hedman, which i personally think

i really dont see what the hype around hedman is for, he is big but what good is that if you dont use your size, and he can skate but ellis can skate better and is a much better puck handler, the one main advantage is hedman is really good positionally and stuff like one on ones but that doesnt make up for the things he is lacking on ellis, and so far ellis had been really good defensivly

 

[Randall Graves*]

Schroeder is actually 18 not 17.

Same draft year as JT

Point stands..

 

[Randall Graves*]

Same here. I don't get it. Schroeder is always... always involved. No matter where the puck is on the ice. He's always in position and always moving.

I don't see it either with Tavares having this better thinking game than Schroeder.

Tavares has good goal scorers instincts there is no denying that, however that doesn't mean he thinks the game better. It's probably harder for people to notice it with Schroeder because he has that speed and sick hands, whereas Tavares lacks the speed but seems to find quiet areas.

The last goal Schroeder scored vs the Czechs was proof of how well he thinks the game, he could only hit one spot and score, it was top corner short side...and he nailed it perfectly..that's a goal scorers goal too.

 

[Top Corner2]

But why isn't Schroeder in Tavares league?

I think Schroeder is proving that he IS in his league, he's the best player on his line which consists of two top 10 picks.

I think size is the only question with Schroeder but the league seems to be trending towards small players who can skate and have alot of skill.

Wilson had a much better tourny than Stamkos last year.....but that didn't make him a top 5 pick.

This is just a tournament. But the scouts will decide on draft day. Personally I think Schroeder is underrated by many and will end up being a top 5 pick.

 

[19Yzerman19]

Tavares Top end Canadian Prospect

Schroeder Top end American Prospect

add in HF Boards Mentality, Do you honestly think Schroeder has any chance of being giving any kind of credit here RG?

 

[Randall Graves*]

Tavares Top end Canadian Prospect

Schroeder Top end American Prospect

add in HF Boards Mentality, Do you honestly think Schroeder has any chance of being giving any kind of credit here RG?

I think he's getting some credit, his track is similar to Pat Kanes, if he does well vs the Canadians tomorrow then he will get the dap he deserves

 

[thomasincanada]

Tavares Top end Canadian Prospect

Schroeder Top end American Prospect

add in HF Boards Mentality, Do you honestly think Schroeder has any chance of being giving any kind of credit here RG?

Yes because hfboards never overhypes american prospects...

*cough* JMFJ *cough*

 

[timw33]

He's certainly making his case for being #2 or #3 overall.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

Remember, NHL scouts are looking for upside and are trying to figure out were these kids are going to be 5-7 years from now. They are not concerned about Schroeder having a better tournament as of now than Hedman, they are projecting their NHL careers. Let's not put too much stock into this one tournament. Is Schroeder rising with his performance thus far? Most definitley, but let's not get ahead of ourselves yet.

 

[Senator Stanley]

i really dont see what the hype around hedman is for, he is big but what good is that if you dont use your size, and he can skate but ellis can skate better and is a much better puck handler, the one main advantage is hedman is really good positionally and stuff like one on ones but that doesnt make up for the things he is lacking on ellis, and so far ellis had been really good defensivly

Wow. Pierre? Is that you?

 

[19Yzerman19]

Could be Don.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Remember, NHL scouts are looking for upside and are trying to figure out were these kids are going to be 5-7 years from now. They are not concerned about Schroeder having a better tournament as of now than Hedman, they are projecting their NHL careers. Let's not put too much stock into this one tournament. Is Schroeder rising with his performance thus far? Most definitley, but let's not get ahead of ourselves yet.

Uh, it's not just the tournament.

It's the whole year he's had.

He's been phenomenal as a freshman and this WJC tournament is solidifying just how great he's been all year long.

He's second in scoring on the Gophers.

As a FRESHMAN. He's been downright dominating at times in the NCAA. If he were in the CHL, he'd be ranked up there with Tavares and would be simply tearing it up.

 

[nuck]

In response to the original post, a good big man is better than a good small man. It becomes more important as a pro because the speed that makes a small guy thrive at lower levels doesn't stand out as much in the faster level of play. The greater reach and strength seems to be something that a lot of small guys can never adapt to. Scoring champs at lower levels of hockey are small guys more often than not, but for every Pat Kane or Martin St Louis that makes it there are 50 that don't.
If you look in the NHL top 15 in scoring there are only a couple of guys close to Schroeder in size. If a player has the right package, and dominates a known level of hockey well enough they overlook the size. You saw how Kane performed and where they chose him. Pat Lafontaine was too small but after he absolutely destroyed the Quebec League, they had no choice but to take him top three. But Lawton still went first. Marcel Dionne was Schroeder size but so dominated the OHL that only the fact Guy Lafleur was drafted that year made him go 2nd.
My answer, because I am not a scout, is that it is because Schroeder is small. If he dominated the NCAA to a high enough level, his size would be discounted completely and he could be rated #1 but apparently he hasn't done this. The Gophers have supplied more NHL players than any other college and Schroeder would be the most heavily scouted player in the nation. The scouts know as much about him as they can possibly know about anyone who isn't yet in the NHL and have chosen not to rate him in the top 5. Is he as dominant in the NCAA as Kessel or Joe Murphy or Craig Simpson were? I havent heard that he is. Hard core Gopher fans could make the Kessel comparison.
Asking why players in two different development systems are ranked where they are is not a question you will get a correct answer to on a fan board. There are scouts that post on here but most of your responses are not from scouts, or even from people that saw both players in action before the WJHC.
I accept that the scouts are likely correct about Tavares because they were right about Kane and Crosby and Ovechkin and Malkin.
But Angelo Esposito was ranked first mid season in his draft year and look where he went. I don't expect Tavares to crash because he is clearly better than Esposito and word is he will get traded off his doormat team to a contender right after the tournament. But Schroeder can still climb. I don't think he will be Marcel Dionne or Patrick Kane but I definitely expect he will be an above average NHL player. Whether he kicks ass or not in this tournament won't affect my opinion as much as how he finishes the Gopher's season though. There are about a half dozen NHL clubs I like and follow and I would love for any of them to end up with this guy. And regardless of where a player is ranked or drafted, there is no guarantee he will be the best player in his draft pool, as Mr Daigle, Lawton, and Murphy
wil agree.

 

[Randall Graves*]

I'm going to let a gophers fan answer you about not dominating the NCAA lol

 

[Towelie*]

Uh, it's not just the tournament.

It's the whole year he's had.

He's been phenomenal as a freshman and this WJC tournament is solidifying just how great he's been all year long.

He's second in scoring on the Gophers.

As a FRESHMAN. He's been downright dominating at times in the NCAA. If he were in the CHL, he'd be ranked up there with Tavares and would be simply tearing it up.

Tavares has dominated the OHL, relatively speaking, to a larger degree.

 

[KAPOW]

He's certainly making his case for being #2 or #3 overall.

for me it's still too early to make predictions, simply because too much can happen at this point.

schroeder is definetley the top usa prospect. and if he continues like this he'll go top5.

nonetheless i think others will be drafted higher...simply because they have been focused for a longer period of time and had way higher impacts to their teams (hedman playing top line minutes in SEL as an 18yo, tavares with 72 goals as a 16yo etc...)


i'm so exited for this years draft...could be the best ever.

 

[TheFinalWord]

Tavares Top end Canadian Prospect

Schroeder Top end American Prospect

add in HF Boards Mentality, Do you honestly think Schroeder has any chance of being giving any kind of credit here RG?

Two points.

1. The scouts don't care where you're from.

2. Perhaps if Shroeder was not being compared to Tavares, he would get more credit. But when people feel they need to discredit Tavares to credit Schroeder, then there will be people who will take the opposite stand. If this was a thread about how Schroeder is tearing it up or looking great or whatever, then it wouldn't be as hotly debated. But when you want to compare someone to the concensus 1 or 2 pick, then you need to understand that people will argue based on that stance.

 

[MN_Gopher]

You cannot compare what Schroeder is doing in the NCAA to what Tavares is doing right now in the OHL. What Schroeder is doing now, one of the youngest in the league is simular to what Tavares did as a 15 year old in the OHL.

The last few freshmen i can think of that had Schroeder's impact. Vanek, Heatley, Parise in terms of all around impact. Kessel scored as much but was lacking in other areas and never took over a game like the other three. And those three did not totally domintae the NCAA as a whole. IMO the last freshmen to take the NCAA by storm and dominate was Kariya. A long time ago.

The thing i have not liked about this. Is what is being said about Tavares. Sounds like he a great talent that is going to be best on offense, down low, letting his team do the work and him putting one in the net. Maybe not that negative if you take it that way. Sounds like Brett Hull. Which is fine. But a Brett Hull clone is not going to be the number one draft pick every year.

If he works hard. Which sounds like he is the guy willing to. He could definitly be something special. I think that projection is what makes him the higher pick. But i think the original questions is a fair one. As Schroder has shown polish in just about every aspect of his game. Thats speaking from him with the gophers not the WJCs.

Right now it would look like he is going to NYI, STL or ATL. I cannot see he an Kovy scoring 50 a piece. Weight and Guerrin are old in NY. He would play with Okposo. There is a guy that can work down low and find him. Or STL, Boyes is a scorer, Tkachuk will be gone soon. Oshie and Backes can do some fishing, but i think it will be some time before he scores that high. Nash in Columbus is a good example. Or Gaborik in MN. Put them on almost any other team and they score a lot more.

Flip those three teams to Schroeder. Schroeder to Kovy would be nice. Schoeder in NYI does not fit as well. Schroeder to Boyes would be nice.

Not saying Tavares will not be just fine where ever he goes. But if this thing continues. I think Schroeder has a good chance to have more of an imediate impact.

 

[Stamvarhall*]

You cannot compare what Schroeder is doing in the NCAA to what Tavares is doing right now in the OHL. What Schroeder is doing now, one of the youngest in the league is simular to what Tavares did as a 15 year old in the OHL.

The last few freshmen i can think of that had Schroeder's impact. Vanek, Heatley, Parise in terms of all around impact. Kessel scored as much but was lacking in other areas and never took over a game like the other three. And those three did not totally domintae the NCAA as a whole. IMO the last freshmen to take the NCAA by storm and dominate was Kariya. A long time ago.

The thing i have not liked about this. Is what is being said about Tavares. Sounds like he a great talent that is going to be best on offense, down low, letting his team do the work and him putting one in the net. Maybe not that negative if you take it that way. Sounds like Brett Hull. Which is fine. But a Brett Hull clone is not going to be the number one draft pick every year.

If he works hard. Which sounds like he is the guy willing to. He could definitly be something special. I think that projection is what makes him the higher pick. But i think the original questions is a fair one. As Schroder has shown polish in just about every aspect of his game. Thats speaking from him with the gophers not the WJCs.

Right now it would look like he is going to NYI, STL or ATL. I cannot see he an Kovy scoring 50 a piece. Weight and Guerrin are old in NY. He would play with Okposo. There is a guy that can work down low and find him. Or STL, Boyes is a scorer, Tkachuk will be gone soon. Oshie and Backes can do some fishing, but i think it will be some time before he scores that high. Nash in Columbus is a good example. Or Gaborik in MN. Put them on almost any other team and they score a lot more.

Flip those three teams to Schroeder. Schroeder to Kovy would be nice. Schoeder in NYI does not fit as well. Schroeder to Boyes would be nice.

Not saying Tavares will not be just fine where ever he goes. But if this thing continues. I think Schroeder has a good chance to have more of an imediate impact.

MAN it must feel nice playing with hockey players like Vanriemsdyk and wilson

Where as Tavares has two play with 2 pluggers that dont even deserve to be on team Canada let alone the 4th line, let alone the entire Team in General.

I would like to see what Schroeder can/would do with Esposito and Didomenico as his line-mates.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Two points.

1. The scouts don't care where you're from.

2. Perhaps if Shroeder was not being compared to Tavares, he would get more credit. But when people feel they need to discredit Tavares to credit Schroeder, then there will be people who will take the opposite stand. If this was a thread about how Schroeder is tearing it up or looking great or whatever, then it wouldn't be as hotly debated. But when you want to compare someone to the concensus 1 or 2 pick, then you need to understand that people will argue based on that stance.

Excellent response!

You cannot compare what Schroeder is doing in the NCAA to what Tavares is doing right now in the OHL. What Schroeder is doing now, one of the youngest in the league is simular to what Tavares did as a 15 year old in the OHL.

The last few freshmen i can think of that had Schroeder's impact. Vanek, Heatley, Parise in terms of all around impact.

Vanek, Heatley, and Parise are awesome players for anybody to be compared to. Although I still don't see how it compares much to what Tavares did as a 15 year old. He set a precedent by being allowed into the league a year early as a special exception. And the next year he broke Wayne Gretzky's scoring record for a 16-year old. Those accomplishments are basically beyond comparison. Tavares' subsequent accomplishments have levelled off in the minds of most, however, so at least people can start to argue about draft rankings or whether he's better than other prospects or not now. But rewinding to when he was 15 or 16 wouldn't be a fair playing field for any comparison.

Can't wait to see the next chapter tonight! Draft fans can't lose either way.

 

[sbtatter]

The biggest downside to Tavares at this tourney has been his lack of producion 5 on 5, is that b/c of him or his linemates? However, from the faceoff circle in he is the deadliest guy in the tourney. So it's a mixed bag so far for him, PP specialist and better than average in the rest of his game, still a #1 overall pick for me at the moment, but I'm so sick of the TSN hype machine, every time Tavares touches the puck there is a TSN orgasm........He's good, we get it, but lets not get silly and start saying he's the 2nd coming of Crosby/Gretzky/Lemieux

 

[Ryan Van Horne]

Ok this topic is kind of scattered between two threads.

So let's get at it, is hype a primary reason why Tavares is deemed so far above Schroeder?

Schroeder was really good in the WJC last year as a 16 year old, he's 17 and is USA's best player.

Tavares was pretty good last year, but has been a PP specialist in his two years, but i'd call him Canadas best player.

Schroeder is a great skater, Tavares has better size and a longer reach.

But I think JT is a bit soft, I haven't seen this guy hit anyone yet, with his size he should atleast try and lay the body once in a while yes?

This post is just a response to the OP and later today, I'd like to go through all five pages of this thread and comment further, but this is just a response to your OP, Randall Graves.

First of all, your thread title is presumptuous. It's too early to tell if John Tavares is a better talent than Jordan Schroeder. Both are just 18 years old. They were born nine days apart in 1990 Sept. 20 and Sept. 29 and they have a lot of developing left to do. It is difficult to project how much better they will get between now and the time they are 21 or 22.

So, assuming that you'll agree to change the wording of your question to "Why is John Tavares considered the better draft prospect at this stage?" -- we'll go from there.

1. The Hype factor. Yes, it has a lot to do with why many hockey fans think JT is better than JS. Hype has little, or no effect on hockey scouts, however.

2. The size factor. JT does not use his size to hit people, but he does use it well to protect the puck. If he was easy to separate from the puck, you could say he's soft, but he's not. JS is listed as 5-foot-9 and as talented as he is, there is still a built-in bias in the scouting community against small players. Scouts are less forgiving and require more proof that a player can play before they will stick their neck out and give a high ranking to a five-foot-nine player. The same thing happened a few years with Pat Kane. Is it fair, probably not, but that's the way it is.

3. The "stealth" factor. Jordan Schroeder has played for US NTDP and Minnesota Golden Gophers the last two and a half seasons. Let's face it, most Canadian hockey fans don't follow those teams very closely. Schroeder's coming out party was last year in Czech Republic and Canadians only got to see one game. So, while many American hockey fans have been aware of how talented he is, many (but not all) Canadian fans only knew him as the small, super skilled guy from Minnesota. Now that they are getting a chance to see what he can do in Ottawa, their realize what a good player he is.

But you raise an interesting issue and I think one that bears watching. Will Schroeder's effort at WJHC raise his draft stock? For sure it will. How much? We'll see in June, but he was already considered a top 10 pick and many American observers have been saying for a while that Schroeder is by far the best U.S. prospect for this year's draft even though some have had Morin or even Drew Shore ranked higher.

 

[Konk]

Is he as dominant in the NCAA as Kessel or Joe Murphy or Craig Simpson were? I havent heard that he is. Hard core Gopher fans could make the Kessel comparison.

You really can't compare to Murphy or Simpson, different eras.

Kessel, honestly, wasn't all that impressive in the NCAAs. Schroeder is certainly having a bigger impact as a freshman, playing on the top line. Kessel was getting third line minutes and although he put up 50 points his freshman year, he didn't stand out as much as most had anticipated. Many felt Kyle Okposo even had a better freshman campaign than Kessel.

The bar was really set by the likes of Heatley, Parise, and Vanek. Most feel he's having an impact on the WCHA similar to what Parise accomplished and having seen all in question (aside from Simpson and Murphy), I'd agree.