What makes Tavares a better talent than Schroeder?

[Le Golie]

I am right, and soon you'll realize I'm right. There simply hasn't been enough time for you to get off the Tavares high horse and realize Schroeder's hockey smarts are unparalleled in this draft class. That will take at least until the end of the round robin.

Maybe we define 'thinking the game' differently. Tavares could score three goals without breaking a sweat by just leisurely getting to the right place at the right time and executing his finish. Offensively, nobody in this draft class can match that.

Since Schroeder and JT are offensive players, I can't entertain the idea that Schroeder has a better mind for the game. Schroeder scores, but he has to do a lot more work for his goals. He skates with the puck, beats people and has a deadly release. That's all really good for him and shows how skilled he is. Tavares just rubber stamps every chance that comes his way, while still being able to create offence using his vision and skill. He is ahead of everyone else on the ice.

 

[the_speedster]

Yet if Tavares led the tourney in assists last year...

it would mean that team canada had gone against a very long standing pattern and depended on one or two lines. Wouldn't have made him a better prospect than he is today. Again, canada has better and deeper prospects than the US. fourth liners on the average US team are usually speedy 3rd line checkers on their individual team, Tean canadas fourth liners are usually first liners/league leaders

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I think the funny part is that apparently every top player in this years draft from a nation other than Canada is better than Tavares. That's perfectly fine with me, hopefully NHL teams listen to HFBoards and my Avs can draft him with a middle of the pack 1st rounder and I can laugh my ass off for the next decade or two.

Tavares has shown a continued progression in his game, people said he was greedy and he only looked to score goals, what does he do? He works on his playmaking and becomes one of his leagues best playmakers. They say he is slow, so he works out in the summer to get faster. They say his defensive game is a joke, so he concentrates on it to try to make it better. Tavares is progressing in every aspect of his game, he works on his weaknesses and realizes that he does have these weak spots in his game.

Unfortunately, all these pro scouts on HFBoards have already declared that he is absolutely unimpressive and every prospect in the world that is faster than him, or flashier than him, or bigger than him, is absolutely better than him. It's gotten to the point where nothing he does impresses people, hell he could score 90 goals against the US and people would say that he was lazy on the backcheck, or that he wasn't that good along the boards. He could shutdown the Schroeder line and people would say that he was totally unimpressive offensively. Hell he jokingly had a pushing match with a teammate and some people started clamouring that he was a bad teammate.

As to why Tavares is a better talent than Schroeder, he's got a much longer much more thoroughly picked apart pedigree, and yet even PRO scouts have him as the top rated prospect. He has shown progression in every part of his game, he has excellent hockey vision, can snipe with the best, can pass with the best, he has excellent one on one moves and most of all, he has the drive to work on his game until he is one of the best. Now, that's no knock on Schroeder, but Tavares has just proven so far with his hockey track record that he is a better prospect, that may change in the future, but the future is the future.

 

[hockeysense*]

I think the funny part is that apparently every top player in this years draft from a nation other than Canada is better than Tavares. That's perfectly fine with me, hopefully NHL teams listen to HFBoards and my Avs can draft him with a middle of the pack 1st rounder and I can laugh my ass off for the next decade or two.

Tavares has shown a continued progression in his game, people said he was greedy and he only looked to score goals, what does he do? He works on his playmaking and becomes one of his leagues best playmakers. They say he is slow, so he works out in the summer to get faster. They say his defensive game is a joke, so he concentrates on it to try to make it better. Tavares is progressing in every aspect of his game, he works on his weaknesses and realizes that he does have these weak spots in his game.

Unfortunately, all these pro scouts on HFBoards have already declared that he is absolutely unimpressive and every prospect in the world that is faster than him, or flashier than him, or bigger than him, is absolutely better than him. It's gotten to the point where nothing he does impresses people, hell he could score 90 goals against the US and people would say that he was lazy on the backcheck, or that he wasn't that good along the boards. He could shutdown the Schroeder line and people would say that he was totally unimpressive offensively. Hell he jokingly had a pushing match with a teammate and some people started clamouring that he was a bad teammate.

As to why Tavares is a better talent than Schroeder, he's got a much longer much more thoroughly picked apart pedigree, and yet even PRO scouts have him as the top rated prospect. He has shown progression in every part of his game, he has excellent hockey vision, can snipe with the best, can pass with the best, he has excellent one on one moves and most of all, he has the drive to work on his game until he is one of the best. Now, that's no knock on Schroeder, but Tavares has just proven so far with his hockey track record that he is a better prospect, that may change in the future, but the future is the future.

Awesome post. I don't think anyone could have summarized the hate Tavares gets as well as you did.

For those that are comparing Schroeder and Tavares, Tavares has incredible hockey sense and is definitely the better thinker out there. There are hockey players that skate their way into scoring position or hit their way into making a scoring opportunity - Tavares THINKS his way into it. I find it amazing that he's always around the puck below the blueline. He doesn't always create a goal, but on every shift he's played, he's created opportunities - there's not a single hockey player out there that can score on every shift and yet, that seems to be the American expectation of Tavares since Schroeder is so much better than him.

Can't remember which US guy said that Schroeder is a better player and prospect than Tavares, but some people should pick another sport before running their mouth - it's better to be thought of an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Wow. I feel like, as an american, i now need to apoligize for ever thinking some one could be almost as good as Tavares. I now thats not true. Geez this got blown out of porportion fast.

Tavares is having his worst year point wise out of his last three. The OHL is a free for all scoring league. I would expect his numbers to be blown up. Tavares no longer has Maclean with him. A guy that kept pace through their careers. Being in the right place at the right time worked for likes Lemieux and... no one else. I nthe sense that they could just be there and score, or turn it on and score. Players like AO, Carter and Vanek the current 1-2-3 goal scoers have the abilty to find space. But Carter can skate by people, AO can go through people and Vanek will take a beating in front. When the oppurtunity is there they capitolize but they also put in work for their goals.

I think there is a lot to question about Tavares. He may lead Canada in scoring, maybe the tourney. he is currently playing on a mini all star team for his age level. Nash for Canada can lead a tourney in scoring. But in Columbus he is a talent with non around him. Big difference.

I'd still take Tavares 10/10 times. No matter what happens this year.


But

 

[Legionnaire]

What does Schroeder do that Tavares can't?

Nothing.

Tavares is bigger, stronger, more of a presence in high traffic areas and a better 'thinker' out there.

Tavares doesn't need to control every shift to be effective. He just flat out produces no matter what you try to do to stop him. He's just smarter and has more scoring ability than 99.9% of the players he plays against and you can not notice him during the game, but he'll still put up three or four points.

I love Schroeder's skill, he's a top ten guy in any draft, but he's no Tavares.

Reminds me a lot of Luc Robitaille in regard to his goalscoring. He just knows where to be. It's uncanny.

He could have had two easy goals yesterday too if they hadn't hopped over his stick. Just a bit of a nerve issue I'd guess.

 

[vippe]

Tavares really freaks me out. I dont think he has looked very good in any games this JWC so far.. but still he scores goals, he is always where the puck bounces and he puts it in.. He seems lazy and not very hardworking.. still he scores..

That is so scary. What if he started to work hard?
I like schroeders game more. Alot more.. but I still think I would take tavares over him just because he is always where the puck bounces..

 

[hockeysense*]

I'll be honest, prior to this year, I've only watched Tavares online or on my Centre Ice channels. I've never seen him play in person. I thought he was over-rated and one of the worst skaters on the ice.

Then I got tickets to two games in Oshawa against Plymouth and Belleville. Tavares was on the ice for every goal against Belleville with a 4 point night. In the second game, he was on the ice for every goal against Plymouth for a 2 point night. In each of those games I saw a player who thought 1-2 seconds ahead of the play - he would take the puck off the half-boards and using his lower body strength to keep bigger and stronger players off of him so he could give himself and his teammates more time to get into position so he could pass the puck or push off the boards with a few nifty moves to get into position to make a shot.

Few players can do this. First players that comes to mind are Thornton and Sundin. Highly skilled and big pivots, but they are play-makers. Thornton has the distinction of just using his huge rear end to control the defensemen behind him while he controls the puck with one hand and using the other hand to point to where he wants his teammates to be.

Tavares thinks the game on another level that Schroeder doesn't. From what I've observed, Schroeder is a highly skilled player, but doesn't think that far ahead in the game - he sees the play as it unfolds, not before.

For the most part, I think Tavares is bored. He's been in the OHL for 4 years now and he's clearly still dominating the OHL and international play. He may not always be impressive, but players that think the game don't normally have the skillset that Tavares does. He has a great shot, great hands and above-average passing skills. His shot trajectory is awesome in close - it's quite amazing how much speed and lift his shot gets from in close.

Tavares > Schroeder

 

[OlderTimer*]

Ok this topic is kind of scattered between two threads.

So let's get at it, is hype a primary reason why Tavares is deemed so far above Schroeder?

Schroeder was really good in the WJC last year as a 16 year old, he's 17 and is USA's best player.

Tavares was pretty good last year, but has been a PP specialist in his two years, but i'd call him Canadas best player.

Schroeder is a great skater, Tavares has better size and a longer reach.

But I think JT is a bit soft, I haven't seen this guy hit anyone yet, with his size he should atleast try and lay the body once in a while yes?

Tavares is not a hitter...he's a scorer ala gretzky!...no need to be hitting anyone...waste of energy

 

[OlderTimer*]

I think the funny part is that apparently every top player in this years draft from a nation other than Canada is better than Tavares. That's perfectly fine with me, hopefully NHL teams listen to HFBoards and my Avs can draft him with a middle of the pack 1st rounder and I can laugh my ass off for the next decade or two.

Tavares has shown a continued progression in his game, people said he was greedy and he only looked to score goals, what does he do? He works on his playmaking and becomes one of his leagues best playmakers. They say he is slow, so he works out in the summer to get faster. They say his defensive game is a joke, so he concentrates on it to try to make it better. Tavares is progressing in every aspect of his game, he works on his weaknesses and realizes that he does have these weak spots in his game.

Unfortunately, all these pro scouts on HFBoards have already declared that he is absolutely unimpressive and every prospect in the world that is faster than him, or flashier than him, or bigger than him, is absolutely better than him. It's gotten to the point where nothing he does impresses people, hell he could score 90 goals against the US and people would say that he was lazy on the backcheck, or that he wasn't that good along the boards. He could shutdown the Schroeder line and people would say that he was totally unimpressive offensively. Hell he jokingly had a pushing match with a teammate and some people started clamouring that he was a bad teammate.

As to why Tavares is a better talent than Schroeder, he's got a much longer much more thoroughly picked apart pedigree, and yet even PRO scouts have him as the top rated prospect. He has shown progression in every part of his game, he has excellent hockey vision, can snipe with the best, can pass with the best, he has excellent one on one moves and most of all, he has the drive to work on his game until he is one of the best. Now, that's no knock on Schroeder, but Tavares has just proven so far with his hockey track record that he is a better prospect, that may change in the future, but the future is the future.

this all sounds way to familiar to me with Tavares being picked apart......oh yeah...

a lot of people picked apart Gretzky ...not the best skater,.. not the best shot.... not the biggest.... not the strongest...not the fastest...etc etc...we all know the results!!

 

[thomasincanada]

I don't think Schroeder has moved up yet because of the World Juniors performance against Germany and the Czech Republic.
The big games will be against Canada then after that.
If he plays great in those games then he'll move up also I think he'll move up if he finishes the college season strong.

That's the nail on the head. What both these guys have done in the tournament so far is borderline irrelevent. Who cares what they did in games against a weak Czech Republic Team or Germany? The Canada / Czech game was basically a practice for the guys.

How these guys do against each other and Russia/Sweden in the playoffs is much, much more telling.

 

[Anthony Mauro]

Everyone's silly. Why can't this be a similar situation to the 2004 draft and Alexander Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin going 1 and 2. At the time, it was the polished phenom who had been under the microscope for awhile against the gangly, raw, but fast developing guy who had just "burst" onto the scene. Scouts were debating hardcore, and I believe some had even been on the record for ranking him ahead of AO, which showed great foresight, as EM went on to take the exact path those supporters envisioned him taking.

They're on the same level skill wise for the most part, but the number one guy (Tavares) still has got a little something extra that makes him the man.

 

[Anthony Mauro]

What I don't understand is this kid's ranking against his peers. Why do you people insist on saying just "top ten"? I can't believe a serious scoring threat like this cannot budge into a group of prospects who aside from a few aren't accomplishing the same feats as he is.

After seeing a myriad of big men fall on their faces after being hyped for the NHL Draft bigtime, and a bunch of not so imposing forwards unbelievably make it to the bigs , is it really that hard to put him ahead of a Cowen or Hedman?

 

[drew1234]

Because Pro scouts are always right?

Would anyone here seriously take Stamkos over Doughty?

Weren't a bunch of scouts low on Pat Kane to?

At the start of the season but flew up the rankings. Schroeder to me was more impressive then Kane/Parise for team USA.

Schroeder will be another Kane type player. Maybe better or worse . No one knows but its you can say easily Schroeder will be that type of player and proboly will be as good.

Tavares is like Heatley as someone else said except better playmaking and but not as a great as a skater.

So if you were drafting and you had a choice of Heatley or Kane who would you pick? Hence why hes not in the top 2. But imo Schroeder should be #3. If I was drafting he would be my #3 hands down.

Hes better then Duchene, Schenn, Kane, MSP, Cowan etc.

 

[UvBnDatsyuked]

I'll be honest, prior to this year, I've only watched Tavares online or on my Centre Ice channels. I've never seen him play in person. I thought he was over-rated and one of the worst skaters on the ice.

Then I got tickets to two games in Oshawa against Plymouth and Belleville. Tavares was on the ice for every goal against Belleville with a 4 point night. In the second game, he was on the ice for every goal against Plymouth for a 2 point night. In each of those games I saw a player who thought 1-2 seconds ahead of the play - he would take the puck off the half-boards and using his lower body strength to keep bigger and stronger players off of him so he could give himself and his teammates more time to get into position so he could pass the puck or push off the boards with a few nifty moves to get into position to make a shot.

Few players can do this. First players that comes to mind are Thornton and Sundin. Highly skilled and big pivots, but they are play-makers. Thornton has the distinction of just using his huge rear end to control the defensemen behind him while he controls the puck with one hand and using the other hand to point to where he wants his teammates to be.

Tavares thinks the game on another level that Schroeder doesn't. From what I've observed, Schroeder is a highly skilled player, but doesn't think that far ahead in the game - he sees the play as it unfolds, not before.

For the most part, I think Tavares is bored. He's been in the OHL for 4 years now and he's clearly still dominating the OHL and international play. He may not always be impressive, but players that think the game don't normally have the skillset that Tavares does. He has a great shot, great hands and above-average passing skills. His shot trajectory is awesome in close - it's quite amazing how much speed and lift his shot gets from in close.

Tavares > Schroeder

Agree. His hockey sense is up there at such a high level. Amazes me to no end.

USAHockey magazine has a great article on hockey sense and talks about the ways to develop it (unstructured play)

I do think that unstructered shinny, cross ice, etc can help drive hockey sense but there is a god given limit.

Kids who I know that play a lot of shinny really do understand the game better than those that don't.

Does anyone know if JT played a lot of shinny?

 

[Chainshot]

Reminds me a lot of Luc Robitaille in regard to his goalscoring. He just knows where to be. It's uncanny.

He could have had two easy goals yesterday too if they hadn't hopped over his stick. Just a bit of a nerve issue I'd guess.

I've thought of Bossy since first seeing him -- not the biggest, or quickest... but he gets to openings and can place the puck so well. *shrug*

 

[thomasincanada]

So if you were drafting and you had a choice of Heatley or Kane who would you pick? Hence why hes not in the top 2. But imo Schroeder should be #3. If I was drafting he would be my #3 hands down.

Am I the only one who read his question about who I'd pick and thought "Kane"?

I like the Bossy comparison better. Do I pick a Kane type over Heatley.. maybe.. Do I pick a Kane type over Bossy? No friggin way...

 

[drew1234]

Am I the only one who read his question about who I'd pick and thought "Kane"?

I like the Bossy comparison better. Do I pick a Kane type over Heatley.. maybe.. Do I pick a Kane type over Bossy? No friggin way...

I think you are. If you look at Fantasy drafts heatley is top 10 Kane is top 20. Just from what ive seen occur.

 

[thomasincanada]

I think you are. If you look at Fantasy drafts heatley is top 10 Kane is top 20. Just from what ive seen occur.

Well Kane is 20 and Heatley is in his prime.

Also I don't judge players from placement in fantasy drafts either

 

[Blind Gardien]

One thing I don't think plays any role in this discussion: hype. For or against, it needs to be ignored.

Another thing I think is currently a somewhat minor consideration: the performance of the two players in the WJC *SO FAR*. 2 or 3 games against weak opponents should not carry very much weight. But there will be more games that will start to ramp up the WJC portion of the equation.

 

[Hav-a-lot*]

Fantasy draft tells all!

 

[boozeash]

It's great to see what the draft eligable prospects are doing in this tournament. I've heard so many times that this is a "tournament for 19 year olds". Tavares is leading the tournament in Goals and Points. Shroeder is not too far behind and leading his team and is in third in scoring. MSP is playing great and leads all the forwards on his team in points. Kane has played well and chipped in offensively. Shroeder is a top three pick in my eyes right now maybe even top two.

 

[Laoghaire]

Assuming they are equally talented, the Canadian will get way more coverage because of where he is. In Canada there are scouts everywhere watching players almost from their birth.

 

[Lainlight]

It's great to see what the draft eligable prospects are doing in this tournament. I've heard so many times that this is a "tournament for 19 year olds". Tavares is leading the tournament in Goals and Points. Shroeder is not too far behind and leading his team and is in third in scoring. MSP is playing great and leads all the forwards on his team in points. Kane has played well and chipped in offensively. Shroeder is a top three pick in my eyes right now maybe even top two.

naa hedman havnt dont anytihng to go outside top 2 in this tourny

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I would agree with the poster who said that what seperates the likes of Tavares from a player like Schroeder is ease of production. Schroeder obviously thinks the game very well and sees the ice ice exceptionally well, but he still has to work quite a bit harder for his points than Tavares. Add in a more projectable pro frame and a clear desire to round out his game, and it's no wonder he's ranked number one. I think the more pertinant question is how high can Schroeder rise? I can see *a* team taking him as high as three.